Debating a Salafi
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Maha,
I could send a PM eqivalent to a novel on the things JW's believe that is not in accordance with Islam...which is the reason I left. They are almost there...if they would just let go of their worship of Jesus (they believe he is the son of God)...
Peace,
Amina
check my message sis
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That is OK if you differ and you are right that only Allah knows what is in their hearts and He said that in AlQuraan.
Its so heartwarming to see such beautiful words of understanding here )
Let me tell you an incident. Once me and my friends discussing 6145 and they all stuck on hadith saying that Mohammed already said, whole pig is haraam, I was like hypno. I said this is Allah who is saying only flesh of pig is haraam not whole pig, they never care, they said when we already saw in hadith that whole pig is haraam, we don't wanna listen anything because that hadith explains this aayat that we cannot understand directly. Finally, me and one of my friend, taken the aayat as guidance and they all took hadith instead.
If Bukhary collected tons of hadith and disregarded close to 90% of them, then what "criterion" did he use to "disregard/dump" them? If he used Qur'an, then rest of the so called "Hadith" cannot be the "commentary" of Qur'an! To me that logic of "commentary on Qur'an" but was brought into being (filtered) using Qur'an is flawed (Subjective opinion). If all this is so, then how can anyone accept Hadiths as commentary to Qur'an when they were random sayings filtered using Qur'an (or something = not divine)?
After a year or so, same thing happened with another person, he listened to many many aayaats, I was showing him for almost 3 hours and he agreed to all of them , surprisingly when we came to 6145 again on that pig thing. He rejects and said I have to study, I cannot say anything and he left. After few years when we met again, I asked him why you are preaching hadith in mosques when we already saw many aayaats on this and you also agreed to that. He replied, I was agreeing but when you said only flesh of pig is haraam, then I realized that you are misguided.
I said, what about other aayaats that you have seen for yourself. He said, no, I understood that you are misguiding me.Hmmm...I guess he had some kind of a prejudice to Pigs which prevented him from pondering over other things in Qur'an. Makes me wonder, what is he taking as authority? Words in God's book or his prejudice of pigs that perhaps he believes is divinely ruled? (Of course I am not trying to insult him at all...people do become subjects to prejudice at weak moments I guess)
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we genitally mutilate boys and/or girls.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded killing a person who leaves Islam, especially the ever-so-corrupted mainstream version.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we stone people to death if they have sex outside marriage.
Allah accepts that we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah commanded we're to believe Muhammad practiced and endorsed the jaw-dropping nonsense you'll find in just Bukhari and/or Muslim.
Allah accepts we oppose, and ridicule people who believe Allah's dress code for women is basically a very loose sack with a slit for the eyes, or simply the face showing, free of make-up or brow trims (I wonder then, what was the point of Allah saying to lower our gaze from the opposite sex to begin with?).
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Its so weird to see them eager to circumcise people and to use science in it to make it look like "your only choice", the idea female circumcision just makes me scream (even though I am a male P). Then when its something else, they suddenly disregard science altogether! I do not know this for sure, but I think I live in a community that sees Islam as circumcision, however crude that might sound. I have seen people who have argued with me saying "No, do you know what to do to become a Muslim? You need to head to that place where circumcision is usually done" When I was trying to tell them of Islam as submission to God alone and Qur'an only as guidance. I have seen people discriminating between Christians and Muslims as (a Muslim - I dunno if to label him that after that incident), I am not going to pray in a place that is in the vicinity of people who do not wash their organs after call of nature (not his exact words, but I had enough...). I have also heard people's account of how horrible circumcision was to them in the old days (where they didn't sedate - they still don't I guess). Now I guess many see it as a rite of manhood (Only male circumcision where I come from) like some Amazon tribes...Yet many(some?) are not okay with shaving chest hair or getting a tattoo
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I heard Zakir Naik in his Oxford Lecture answering an American about how this is not the practice in Hadiths themselves, but I dunno if he means it or not. In the same video he talks to a Christian (Missionary?) that he should ask the specific "Islamic Country" why they are not permitting Christians to preach their religion (...and escapes without a direct answer?), then in another lecture he speaks how its like a principal who only hires a math teacher who says 2+2 =4 and not 2+2 =3 or 2+2 = 5 because he claims that in Religion, it is sure Islam is the truth and other religions cannot be preached in an "Islamic State/Country".
Personal Note At first I liked the guy very much when in an Indian lecture he answered something like "No, there are no subdivisions or sects in Islam" and how he knew so much about many religion and how he could cite verses and chapter number with ease. -
I remember asking someone about the shahadah part of "Muhammad Rasoolullah" and asked him why we should say that if we are Muslims and what would Abraham have said or the people of Abraham since they were Muslims and they didn't know about Muhammad (Now I know there are people who claim that Muhammad Rasolullah part was there from the beginning from Adam). He got angry and I gave up hope for any reasonable argument and he ended it by saying "laws and rites" were different from time to time for each Apostle so they said their respective Apostle with the shadadah...whichever way I didn't wanna make him angry anymore and I left the topic.
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but I dunno if he means it or not. In the same video he talks to a Christian (Missionary?) that he should ask the specific "Islamic Country" why they are not permitting Christians to preach their religion (...and escapes without a direct answer?), then in another lecture he speaks how its like a principal who only hires a math teacher who says 2+2 =4 and not 2+2 =3 or 2+2 = 5 because he claims that in Religion, it is sure Islam is the truth and other religions cannot be preached in an "Islamic State/Country".
Personal Note At first I liked the guy very much when in an Indian lecture he answered something like "No, there are no subdivisions or sects in Islam" and how he knew so much about many religion and how he could cite verses and chapter number with ease.OMG did you also noticed it rotfl rotfl When I was a sunni zakir naik was my hero rotfl and i saw tons of lectures of him where he himself preached that non-muslims shall never be allowed to preach in muslim countries because they dont preach 2+2=4 , and then suddenly i saw him in oxford university totally avoiding the question and I was like WTF
That is because, as I earlier said, when zakir naik talk to non-muslims, especially non-muslim westerners, he carefully avoid to mention the negative aspects of sunnism. But when he talks to fellow sunnis, he is much more honest. Then I dicovered that he was lying right in the face of the audience for instance he said that a man in sunnism is allowed to have 4 wives because there are hundred of millions more women then men in the world and therefore on the edge of becoming prostitutes rotfl
Now the problem is just, that when I checked the statistics for myself, it actually occured that its excately opposite which is the case there are more men then women in the world. Its only when you reach above the age of 65 that you find more women than men... so I wonder if it was the grannies zakir naik called prostitutes ? and therefore very young men shall marry very old grannies to help them out of prostitution?And just look what he says here
Question to zakir naik Why Is pork prohibited in islam?
Zakir naik answer PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say ?you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.? If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.So according to zakir naik, if you eat pig you will become a wife swapper
It was then I realized that zakir naik is nothing more then a ugly bearded sick liar selling his religion for a cheap price..he has perfected the art of propaganda. This entails maintaining an edifice of scholarship while frequently using half-truths, out-of-context passages and false statistics. It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.
but good you could understand him.. i mostly found it very hard to understand his english.
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And just look what he says here
Question to zakir naik Why Is pork prohibited in islam?
Zakir naik answer PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say ?you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.? If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.So according to zakir naik, if you eat pig you will become a wife swapper
In all my years as an eater of pork never did this occur to me or anyone around me, is it only for Americans I wonder? rotfl
It was then I realized that zakir naik is nothing more then a ugly bearded sick liar selling his religion for a cheap price..he has perfected the art of propaganda. This entails maintaining an edifice of scholarship while frequently using half-truths, out-of-context passages and false statistics. It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.
but good you could understand him.. i mostly found it very hard to understand his english.
I think he sells for what he sees as a high price, financially, but what he is lying about and promoting is selling his soul for a cheap price......and taking millions who daren't think for themselves with him.
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In all my years as an eater of pork never did this occur to me or anyone around me, is it only for Americans I wonder? rotfl
lol...His conclusion (I didn't see that video) sounds very illogical P
Wikipedia claims he is one of the advisers of the Salafi doctrine.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_Naik -
Is there any chance of a live prime time TV debate between Edip and Yusuf Estes? !
Oh my goodness...I would pay to see that. Really.
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Salaam
It is amazing to see such praises for the distant caliph of false prophet Rashad Khalifa, the best that can be said about his personality "an intelligent person, with arrogance and jealousy"
What did he said new? what did he added? same bunch of people who are against Hadith and against Praise for prophet were clapping for him here.for arrogance read and watch his debates and for jealousy you can read material against Harun Yahya.
Debate with ayman on 19 is interesting read too.and
Maha wrote about Zakir Naik
It also involves carefully avoiding debate with any serious debaters that oppose him, like Sam Shamoun or Ali Sina.Ali Sina rotfl
You might not agree with Zakir Naik but calling Ali Sina a serious debater is itself non seriousness
and sam Shamoun? what about him...have you seen the debate between his good friend Dr.WilliAM cAMPBELL AND zAKIR? What else can he add
PRAISE BE TO MUHAMMAD THE RASUL AND SERVANT OF ALLAH THE ALMIGHTY
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lol...His conclusion (I didn't see that video) sounds very illogical
Wikipedia claims he is one of the advisers of the Salafi doctrine.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakir_NaikIf you carefully listen to his bad english, you will realize that he is indeed a salafi financed by salafies in Saudi Arabia . But his standard answer is that he is just a "muslim" and that there are no "sects" in islam.. He says that for 3 reasons
- It sounds good
- It makes mainstream Sunnis and sufis to listen to him and make non-Muslims think that he is speaking on behalf of "authentic islam"
- Salafi is a negative term among non-salafis.
Pece
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If you carefully listen to his bad english, you will realize that he is indeed a salafi financed by salafies in Saudi Arabia . But his standard answer is that he is just a "muslim" and that there are no "sects" in islam.. He says that for 3 reasons
- It sounds good
- It makes mainstream Sunnis and sufis to listen to him and make non-Muslims think that he is speaking on behalf of "authentic islam"
- Salafi is a negative term among non-salafis.
Pece
Aren't Salafis the ones who wear their pants above the ankle so that they don't drag the ground?
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^Yeah, they're the hopeless bunch that think if you're a man, whatever is below your ankle is "in the hellfire" (so basically just the part that passes the ankles is in the fire...rotfl) and if you're a woman, it's vice versa. You can't show your ankles, otherwise...I dunno, your ankles will be in the fire. Who knows - don't remember reading an exact punishment for that, but they could always make up and try justifying one. After all, it deals with women.
Lol @ Zakir's fatwa on pig meat. It's so hilarious I dedicated 5 minutes of my time lol'ing to it, and more lol @ Estes being picked to talk since he appears as a "cozy grandpa". So true. This guy's hopeless as one said. You know someone is with a beard that unkempt and long, and saying Muhammad's name 20 times every 5 minutes while saying Noah's, Abraham's, Isaac's, and Joseph's name...0 times. Whatever happened to viewing the prophets and messengers as equal.
Raaajah, Khalifa hasn't been mentioned once in the topic. Also no one comes close to praising this guy as the mainstream Muslims basically say things that pretty much deify Muhammad. You'll also notice Khalifa never claimed to bring anything new. He did a good job getting Muslims with a brain to only accept Quran (although much of his Quranic interpretation seemed traditional). Other than the 19 thing which was mainly trying to get the Muslim to further think the Quran was the only divine thing in Islam (not that all the arguments against the sunnah/hadith weren't enough), that's it.
I agree with all replies to my posts since my last visit.
-Edit- On an unrelated note I watched The Stoning of Soraya M. the other night (. It's so messed up (the practice of stoning) and I cried in areas. The main bad guy (the husband, who falsely accused his wife of adultery just so he doesn't have to spend on her anymore) in the film I'd soccer-kick in the balls. They literally declared simply talking nicely to and hand-touching a man who wasn't the husband as punishable by this pagan shit (if you're concerned of spoilers, the trailer would've revealed that much). Here's the box art
http//s017.radikal.ru/i413/1206/3e/214c4fbbf886.jpg
It's torrent-able so if anyone wants to see how like dogs Sunni/Shiite Muslims in the Middle East can be, you can see it. There are even torrents of it in HD.
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Meteora...I bet he didn't even have the required witnesses, did he? When I pointed that out to my husband in the Qur'an, he suddenly stopped spouting off about stoning for adultery. Maybe he thought men could just walk in there and not have to take any responsibility...nope...a man has to take an oath that he is not lying.
244 And those who accuse the independent females, then they do not
bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes,
and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses
except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be
equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is
being truthful.247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the
liars.248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness
four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking
the truth.Peace,
Amina
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Meteora
Raaajah, Khalifa hasn't been mentioned once in the topic. Also no one comes close to praising this guy as the mainstream Muslims basically say things that pretty much deify Muhammad. You'll also notice Khalifa never claimed to bring anything new. He did a good job getting Muslims with a brain to only accept Quran (although much of his Quranic interpretation seemed traditional). Other than the 19 thing which was mainly trying to get the Muslim to further think the Quran was the only divine thing in Islam (not that all the arguments against the sunnah/hadith weren't enough), that's it.
You contradict your own statement,
He introduced system of 19 by deleting Ayats of Quran, if that was not new than hail to you!
He did a good job by starting deleting Quranic Ayats to fit his 19 theory.Praise be to Muhammad Rasul and Servant of Allah!
Lol @ Zakir's fatwa on pig meat. It's so hilarious I dedicated 5 minutes of my time lol'ing to it,
May be you can come up with a better reasons for not eating PIG if Yes I would like to hear or may be you chose the easy way by upright denying such a thing in Quran as some of the modern day self proclaimed scholars of internet. What ever it may be here is what I said is
You might not agree with Zakir Naik but calling Ali Sina a serious debater is itself non seriousness
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-Edit- On an unrelated note I watched The Stoning of Soraya M. the other night (. It's so messed up (the practice of stoning) and I cried in areas. The main bad guy (the husband, who falsely accused his wife of adultery just so he doesn't have to spend on her anymore) in the film I'd soccer-kick in the balls. They literally declared simply talking nicely to and hand-touching a man who wasn't the husband as punishable by this pagan shit (if you're concerned of spoilers, the trailer would've revealed that much). Here's the box art
http//s017.radikal.ru/i413/1206/3e/214c4fbbf886.jpg
It's torrent-able so if anyone wants to see how like dogs Sunni/Shiite Muslims in the Middle East can be, you can see it. There are even torrents of it in HD.
I've seen this movie, it's a perfect example how people abuse shariah law and personalize it to suit their wicked desires. I think this is the only movie I've ever seen that made me cry. I'd like to show it to all people who believe that punishment for adultery in Islam is stoning to death and later ask them if they truly believe such horror is OK in God's s.w.t. eyes.
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Hopeless Sunni's, Shiites and Salafi's/Wahabi's will tell you so. They're the exception though. I'm betting that even a small percent of them, after actually watching the movie will somewhat deny it. Then all you need is their godly scholar to chat them up again and bam, back to blind-following the religion 100%. It's rare that an adherent to religions like these ever put their mind and reason first. We're not like that - we have free minds, and hence the site name.
I'll reply to the other posts later. Gotta go.
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Meteora
You contradict your own statement,
He introduced system of 19 by deleting Ayats of Quran, if that was not new than hail to you!
He did a good job by starting deleting Quranic Ayats to fit his 19 theory.Praise be to Muhammad Rasul and Servant of Allah!
May be you can come up with a better reasons for not eating PIG if Yes I would like to hear or may be you chose the easy way by upright denying such a thing in Quran as some of the modern day self proclaimed scholars of internet. What ever it may be here is what I said is
Were those (2) ayats not there, it would make no difference concerning what we believe and how we carry out our lives. What was in it can be pretty much found elsewhere throughout the Quran. Why is it that people make a big deal out of two tiny verses among more than 6,000 others, when they should be more focused on denouncing the countless hadiths that actually ridicule Mohamed and debase Islam like no other religion, and you're praising Mohamed now? hypno
Also I was laughing at his fatwa 'cause it sounded funny, not because it was entirely wrong, but he'd say the whole of pig is forbidden, when I'm pretty sure the Qur'an says just the meat of it is. For example thinking non-kosher marshmellows are forbidden is silly.
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Were those (2) ayats not there, it would make no difference concerning what we believe and how we carry out our lives. What was in it can be pretty much found elsewhere throughout the Quran. Why is it that people make a big deal out of two tiny verses among more than 6,000 others,
hypno