Archaeological/Historical Evidence For Quran
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Peace all,
I and a Sunni Muslim visit two Christians every weekend to discuss the comparisons and contrasts between our books and beliefs. It seems like every time we discuss something, me and my Sunni friend always mention how corrupted the Bible is (because it obviously is when you look at the history) but our two Christian friends come back at us saying that the Quran is composed the same way. Of course, being one who worships God alone, believes that his book is perfect, and who can obviously see the contradictions in the Bible, I thought "there's definitely proof that the Quran is composed differently!" Lo and behold...
It seems that the haphazard history of the Bible's composition has been reflected in the history of the composition of the Quran. The problem? Everyone is relying on hadith for the history. Everyone. The Scholars, critics of the Quran, and everyone else. My question is, where did the real history go??? Even with the Bible, many people look to archaeological and historical evidence for many of its verses. Well where is the archaeological and historical evidence of the Quran?? Why is the Gold Quran in Turkey the oldest when it's not even 1400 years old? Where's Muhammed's handwriting? &
We have so much history about the hadith and it's invalidity, but where the heck is the history of the Quran? We are so quick to point out the history of the Bible and the history or hadith, yet we can't even explain the history of our own book?
These are some articles I have read that give me some insight to the Quran's history, but i seems to me that someone's trying to hide something very big...
http//free-minds.org/where-was-mohammed
http//www.free-minds.org/pilgrimage-lost-legacy-abraham
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
http//www.historyofmecca.com/It's kind of a lot to read but do take a good look through it please. I would like for you all to understand where I'm coming from.
All comments and links to other readings are well appreciated.
Peace and blessings! yay
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Well there is a big difference between the Qur'an and the Bible and the hadith.
While the latter two purport to in fact narrate fact of history, the Qur'an does not, everything it says is by way of amthal, illustrations or examples. I does not pretend to narrate hi8story and in fact shuns to give much data about it.
That does not mean that what it does say is not fact, but that it is not a book of history nor history decides any moral or spiritual question.
However for the bible and the hadith, their truth relies on historical facts That so and so is really the father of other so and so or that so and so did in fact say this or that.
For followers of the Qur'an it doesn't matter much who received this revelation or that revelation. The question is the revelation itself.
That is also the reason why there was an interest in manipulating the Qur'an and the hadith, because devidends could be extract from this or that, in the bible to guarantee certain people certain privileges, and in hadith to allow for things that otherwise would questionable or to prohibit them.
Salaam
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Peace huruf,
I understand everything you said and I agree with you. What I'm trying to say is, how can we continue to tell Christians and Sunnis that they're wrong when we can't back up quranic history? I am not the one in need of these facts. It's just that it's unfair to point fingers without archaeological proof.
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You are right and I share your interest.
What I wrote is a valid answer to questioning the validity of the Qur'an on the grounds of historicity, because the Qur'an does not support that kind of claims.
However, since it does contain alusions and mentions to people and places, even if vaguely, we should make an effort. I am not knowledgeable on this matter at all and I join you in wishing that if somebody is should enlighten us.
Salaam
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Peace inquisitivetrini.
Let us quote some of this book that we are seeking to prove through archaeology/ history.
Please bear with me as it is a lengthy quote
2870 HE is the one GOD. There is no other god beside HIM. To HIM belongs all praise in this life and in the hereafter. All judgement belongs to HIM, and to HIM you will be returned.?
( How do you prove you are loyal? By a test?)
292 Do the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? Without being put to the test??
293 We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful (Totally loyal to HIM ALONE) and HE must expose the liars.?
294 ? Do those who commit sins think that they can ever fool Us? Wrong is their judgement.?
( Do whatever you want, He sees what you do?)
295 ? Anyone hoping to meet GOD (should know that) such a meeting with GOD will most certainly come to pass. HE is the Hearer, the OMNISCIENT.?
2911 GOD will distinguish those who ( truly) believe, and HE will expose the hypocrites.?
2964 ? This worldly life is no more than vanity and play, while the abode of the hereafter is the real life.?
( This life is 100 or so years for each person , Hereafter is infinity; 100 divided by infinity equal ZERO!)
307 ?( Most people) They care only about things that are visible to them, while being totally oblivious to the hereafter.?
( Reflection time?)
308 ? Why do they not reflect on themselves? GOD did not create the heavens and the earth except for a specific purpose and for a specific life span. However most people with regard to meeting their Lord are disbelievers.?
3011 ? GOD is the one who initiates the creation and repeats it. Ultimately you will be returned to HIM.?
3012 ? On the day when the hour comes to pass, the guilty( and the disbelievers) will be shocked?
3025 Among HIS proofs is that the heaven and the earth are standing at HIS disposal; Finally when HE calls you out of the earth, one call, you will immediately come out.?
3026 ? To HIM belongs everyone ( and everything) in the heavens and the earth; All are subservient to HIM.?
3029 ? The transgressors have followed their own opinions ( and the opinions of their idols) without knowledge? No one can ever help them ( against GOD)?
3030 ? Therefore you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict Monotheism. ( total submission and loyalty to GOD ALONE) Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change ( The kingdom of GOD will have no rebels?) This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.?
3031 ? You shall submit to HIM,reverence HIM, Observe your prayer ( connect to HIM ,ask HIM for help), and whatever you do, do not ever fall into idol worship.?
This is only a minute quote from the book. ( Whatever translation you choose for this verses, the following is valid!)
BY ALL MEANS LET US SEARCH, ANALYSE, PROVE ETC.... IN THE END IF THIS BOOK IS NOT AUTHORED AND PRESERVED BY GOD, I WILL EAT MY HAT.Peace.
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Peace goodlogic,
I appreciated those quran verses you quoted. As always, they were incredibly beautiful.
It seems that I may have made a troublesome agreement with my Christian friends. Basically, I decided that each of us should look up the arch/historical facts of each book (Bible and Quran) and that we should not trust the Quran or Bible for evidence. We agreed to look at sources outside of both. Because if we're just quoting books, well of course there is SOME truth in the Bible and they'll use that to prove that it's 100% legitimate. And of course I 100% believe that the Quran is legitimate but that is because I see God's signs and I trust in His book. Therefore, we decided to look OUTSIDE both sources since both parties are going nowhere since we both are 100% believing in two entirely different doctrines which is why I think we need something outside of these books in order to move on to deeper topics besides "Your Bible is corrupted" and "The Quran is just as illegitimate". I can see my friends' anxiousness for the Truth and I really want them to find it. Of course, I do not have the power to guide them to it, only by the will of Allah will they see if they choose to do so. For now, I am stuck in this rut. -\
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Peace inquisitivetrini.
Of course I understand where you want to go. But like " existence of God" and lots of other facts, will there ever be " proof" that convinces everyone?
All " man made research" even archaeological Diggs/finds can contain " human error". Who will be completely satisfied?
Is history 100% reliable? Is most of it not written by the " Victors"?
can we Scientifically/ Mathematically prove " God s book" now? Can we do that in the future?
Evidence is in the " eyes of the believer" .
Good luck, We shall look with you and for you , God wiling.
Peace.
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Dear member inquisitivetrini
Even with the Bible, many people look to archaeological and historical evidence for many of its verses.
Please tell us what evidence did they ever find? Would you like me to show you articles and books written by "Israeli" and Jewish archeologists themselves about what they have found in Palestine? What evidence are you talking about?
The description of Solomon's temples, courts and buildings that appear in the Bible are considered, by modern scholars, to be no more than fairy tales. The Bible speaks of towering structures of marble and gold, rivaling the ziggurats of Mesopotamia and built with stones the same size as the pyramids of Egypt.
Has any trace of such building ever been found in Palestine? They have unearthed pre-historic tools and utensils near Jerusalem, going back to 7000 B.C. Yet, somehow, the magical kingdom of Solomon left zero trace. Oh, PLEASE spare us this bullsh*it. Either you listen to the objective opinions of the arheologists in the past 2 decades, or you listen to Zionist propaganda concerning Palestine.
You speak of the Bible? Let me tell you something about it... underneath the piles of garbage that have corrupted the Old Testament texts throughout the ages (various mistranslations + erronuous accentuations and dialectic marks), you will find a very accurate description of a geography that is simply NOT COMPATIBLE with Palestine's terrain. Those who have insisted on forceably matching the OT text with Palestine's geography are either insane, or knowingly propagating their imperialist agenda.
These are some articles I have read that give me some insight to the Quran's history, but i seems to me that someone's trying to hide something very big...
http//free-minds.org/where-was-mohammed
http//www.free-minds.org/pilgrimage-lost-legacy-abraham
http//answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
http//www.historyofmecca.com/I have read all those articles, and I agree with them concerning Makkah. However, the writers of those articles are only looking at one side of the truth. They keep on saying "where is the archeological proof that Makkah existed before 300 A.D".
When it comes to Makkah, they can provide all the proofs you ask them for. But when the subject shifts to Jerusalem, they resort to lies, deception, hypocracy, and Zionist propaganda.
I defy anyone one of them to show me proof that Jerusalem even existed before 700 B.C. Truth is it DID NOT exist. But they run away from this fact, because it doesn't agree with their agenda. This is human nature being displayed in its ugliest form.Listen to the "Israeli" politicians - whose fathers came from Russia, Poland, Lithuania, and Hungary - boasting, every now and then, of how their ancestors built the pyramids of Giza, and you will understand the power of propaganda, and teh effect it has on people.
but i seems to me that someone's trying to hide something very big...
The only "hidden" thing I see is that the Muslims flock like sheep, every year, to worship the Black Cube of Saturn and the Black Fertility Stone at Makkah. The version of Muhammad that they idolize is nothing but a myth.
Why is the Gold Quran in Turkey the oldest when it's not even 1400 years old? Where's Muhammed's handwriting?
Who told you it's the oldest?
Peace...
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Peace Pazuzu,
Can you provide me some literature to support your words? Any books/links to archaeology of Jerusalem and how it didn't exist before 700 B.C. or the disproving of biblical events that you mention? I would like to read them for myself.
As for the Gold Quran http//www.free-minds.org/which-quran and https//whyislam.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/the-gold-quran/.
I do need to stop by the library to find some real books on all of these topics as well. ^.^
Until then, peace and blessings!
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Peace.
If you take the Quran as the basis for truth, then you will see that many details of the bible shadow the Quran. I do not believe in complete corruption of the Bible, because i see the truth in it, as i see in the Quran. -
I do not know why people who are keen on imposing the bible as being as good as the Qur'an, and I do not mean you Youssef, keep insisting on that the Bible contains truth. Nobody has denied that, the same as it is not a question of all hadith being absolutely wrong. There are hadiths that may be true or even which are true, because no matter who said it, the saying is good and truthful. The fact that there ar good things in the bible, the same that there are good things aamongst all the hadith does not prove that the whole of the bible or that all hadith are true, all the truth and nothing but the truth.
We claim that nonetheless of the Qur'an. There are traditions and scriptures of spiritual and religious nature in the whole world which contain marvels and which are moving. That cannot be denied, but the point is to what extent can we be sure of their authenticity, aboslute and complete truthfulness and so on. The bible is not the reference for that. It cannot be. It is, amongst other things, partisan. In places, very, abhorrently partisan. Upholding the bible as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps, just as the hadith colletions have. Oh yes there are good things in them, but you cannot take the lot without suspicion and caution, because it does not come stright from God. As simple as that.
We may read the Bible, the hadith, study them, why not, we may read and study anything, why not those, but we know their limits.
Salaam
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I do not know why people who are keen on imposing the bible as being as good as the Qur'an, and I do not mean you Youssef, keep insisting on that the Bible contains truth. Nobody has denied that, the same as it is not a question of all hadith being absolutely wrong. There are hadiths that may be true or even which are true, because no matter who said it, the saying is good and truthful. The fact that there ar good things in the bible, the same that there are good things aamongst all the hadith does not prove that the whole of the bible or that all hadith are true, all the truth and nothing but the truth.
We claim that nonetheless of the Qur'an. There are traditions and scriptures of spiritual and religious nature in the whole world which contain marvels and which are moving. That cannot be denied, but the point is to what extent can we be sure of their authenticity, aboslute and complete truthfulness and so on. The bible is not the reference for that. It cannot be. It is, amongst other things, partisan. In places, very, abhorrently partisan. Upholding the bible as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps, just as the hadith colletions have. Oh yes there are good things in them, but you cannot take the lot without suspicion and caution, because it does not come stright from God. As simple as that.
We may read the Bible, the hadith, study them, why not, we may read and study anything, why not those, but we know their limits.
Salaam
Why do you compare the Bible (God confirmed in Quran was from Him) to hadith (God confirmed in Quran are not from Him)?? ???
It's a bit like comparing all the good foods Allah said we can eat, to pigs.
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Why do you compare the Bible (God confirmed in Quran was from Him) to hadith (God confirmed in Quran are not from Him)?? ???
It's a bit like comparing all the good foods Allah said we can eat, to pigs.
Peace
not once is there mention of the Bible in the Quran...
what are mentioned are the Torah, Injeel, AlZaboor, the First Leaves of Abraham and Moussa... -
The fact that there ar good things in the bible, the same that there are good things aamongst all the hadith does not prove that the whole of the bible or that all hadith are true, all the truth and nothing but the truth.
Good thought
but..
Don't you think the same paradigm is also applicable to anything? including the Quran?That cannot be denied, but the point is to what extent can we be sure of their authenticity, aboslute and complete truthfulness and so on.
Again the same goes with Quran don't you think?
Otherwise you'll be applying a 'double standard'..The bible is not the reference for that. It cannot be. It is, amongst other things, partisan. In places, very, abhorrently partisan.
And in other places/books within the bundle called "Bible".. it's not partisan at all...
Upholding the bible as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps, just as the hadith colletions have. Oh yes there are good things in them, but you cannot take the lot without suspicion and caution, because it does not come stright from God. As simple as that.
Again this goes with anything.. including the Quran..
Salam / Peace
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We are so quick to point out the history of the Bible and the history or hadith, yet we can't even explain the history of our own book?
So it's "Our own book" now?
Did any of us here wrote and authored the Quran or own it's copyright?And history are written by the winners..
History by itself is not 100% fact..Salam / Peace
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Good thought
but..
Don't you think the same paradigm is also applicable to anything? including the Quran?Again the same goes with Quran don't you think?
Otherwise you'll be applying a 'double standard'..And in other places/books within the bundle called "Bible".. it's not partisan at all...
Again this goes with anything.. including the Quran..Salam / Peace
I, as yet, have not caught the Qur'an in any of the things I say about hadith or the bible. Whenever I have gone through the intepretation of the interpreters and got direct understanding without those trappings, I have never found failures or shortcomings or confusion in the Qur'an. The Qur'an, when you get rid of prejudice, of the prejudices accumulated arount it, is never partial, is straightforward and fearless.
No not applicable to the Qur'an at all. Hadith, bad hadith and the bible are corrupted in their body, the Qur'an has been perverted outside it, its sorroundings. You have to get rid of its sorroundings. What we could call "the veils".
Salaam
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I, as yet, have not caught the Qur'an in any of the things I say about hadith or the bible. Whenever I have gone through the intepretation of the interpreters and got direct understanding without those trappings, I have never found failures or shortcomings or confusion in the Qur'an. The Qur'an, when you get rid of prejudice, of the prejudices accumulated arount it, is never partial, is straightforward and fearless.
I think you missed the main point..
The main point was"If there are good things amongst X does not prove that the whole of X is true, all the truth and nothing but the truth. "
Thus
"Upholding X as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps"Which I believe is applicable to all materials.. including Quran..
And Bible is a collection of multiple books.. where each book is a collection of multiple statement..
Just like Quran is a collection of multiple chapters and a chapter is a collection of multiple statement.."For in the same way you judge others, you will also be judged, and with the measure you use, it shall also be measured to you."
Matt 72Salam / Peace
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Peace everyone
I think the fact that we cannot prove historically or archaeologically the origin of quran is a proof in itself that it is from GOD
I mean if something is created by human we can trace back its history and its origin....likewise we can't do that for everything created by God...
We cannot trace back origin of human beings, can we?....where n when we were created....how we came about being what we are....what is the history of origin of animals....we cannot....n so that in itself is a proof that we are created by God n so are animals...
We tend to prove quran or any other scripture with limited knowledge in science, history, archaeology etc rather approach should be different. Instead of proving it word of god...we should ask y it cant be word of god....
I find Quran to be word of God because
1, No one can claim that it was written by me. In other word it has got no author.
2, No one have understood it completely.
3, No one was able to find inconsistency in its verses. By that i mean is if some thing is mentioned at one place, it is mentioned the same way at other places.
4, I don't think there is any book including Bible in its present form which has got so many layers of understanding. I find it like a puzzle which has never been solved.
5, How can any person change it when to understand it is difficult.As far as other scriptures are present there is lot of information present but there is lot of misinformation present alongside it....when Allah said that quran has come as a criterion (furqaan) and it confirms what was revealed before (which got corrupted) i believe we can find a great deal of good information in all the scriptures by keeping it a criteria to decide what can be correct and what can be corruption.
Thanks
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I think you missed the main point..
The main point was"If there are good things amongst X does not prove that the whole of X is true, all the truth and nothing but the truth. "
Thus
"Upholding X as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps"Which I believe is applicable to all materials.. including Quran..
And Bible is a collection of multiple books.. where each book is a collection of multiple statement..
Just like Quran is a collection of multiple chapters and a chapter is a collection of multiple statement.."For in the same way you judge others, you will also be judged, and with the measure you use, it shall also be measured to you."
Matt 72Salam / Peace
Do not strain yourself. I got it the first time. You want me to make a statement saying that I don't know what I know or saying that since I cannot vouch for absolutely everything, I cannot vouch for anything.
No, I vouch for what I can vouch because I have tried it. What I vouch for the truthful Qur'an I vouch, yes. I know the Qur'an as if I was God? No, I don't. But what I do know as I if was who I am satisfies me. What I do know about Hadith satisfies me partially, and some of those not only do not satisfy me but plain disgust me. What I do know about the Bible satisfies me partially, and some of it not only does not satisfy me, but plain disgusts me. And concerning the latter, I know what the make of the Bible is. I read it since childhood and then It did disgust me alright. ?What a disagreeable reading in some parts! ?What a genealogical obssession! No wonder Freud had a field day with it. For me, the best of it are the parables of Jesus without doubt, which probably were around anyway, and were collected under his gospels. They are that kind of literature. Not to say with that that because they have been around not should be preached or that they have lost any of its value. They have not. They are still efficient to convey what they convey. That is my perception. But no, although there are nice parts in the old testament, Got sei Dank, I am no fan of it. I find many spiritual books far more rewarding. And there are things in it that I find outright inmoral, wicked, twisted and obssessive to a very painful degree. As I say, they are hadith.
So I speak about what I know. You, on the other hand, take the intonation of somebody who would be an impartial observer. There is no such thing. I think you just have that personal opinion about what you think you know, exactly like me and exactly like everybody else.
And what I stated about the Qur'an, I maintain.
Salaam
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Salam
interesting discussion
What we know from Pazuzus research that probably (or sure) the hole history is a fake and it seems that the origin from the Quran is in Saudi Arabien or Yemen. But, i think i must ask myself is this fact really important? yes maybe to know or to understand why we see this big problems in the world today.. Yes. But for our relationship with Allah?
The Quran states that he is a book for people who think. So when we read the Quran and study it, try to understand it's message, what is the most important?
that we understand there is a God and there is a hereafter, there is a life after the death.
We can discuss hundred years about the question if the Quran is true or not. Many will say yes and many no-so this is in fact our test..
we read the Quran and see no unlogic, no violence, no oppression, no needless stories, why we should not believe?
The Quran tells us that the Torah and the Psalms and the Injeel were writing from God. He tells us, however, that they have been altered by rabbis and violent people.
This is a fact no one can deny. Why should I reject this book when my brain is my logic and my feeling see nothing wrong in it?
There are also many indications or signs in the Qur'an, which points out that the book is not of human origin. One sign of this is his linguistics and his choice of words, and to his composition (word pairs, etc., 19 also)
But the question is really
It is important to prove that the Quran is from God? It is important to know for my rescue, where the Prophet lived?
What is the message that comes to us through all the books?huruf
But no, although there are nice parts in the old testament, Got sei Dank, I am no fan of it. I find many spiritual books far more rewarding. And there are things in it that I find outright inmoral, wicked, twisted and obssessive to a very painful degree. As I say, they are hadith.
I see this, Gott sei Dank--can you speak German ? would be great, because sometimes I lack the words to express myself precise in English ...
Salams