Confused...Where is the Kaaba? What is the Qiblah?

boricuaboi85

So, I have seen a lot of debate on here about where and what Kaaba is and about where to turn in Salat, but the question I have is, what is the answer according to al-Qur'an?

GODsubmitter

Nobody knows because there is no definitive interpretation of it.

mirjamnur

Salam

So, I have seen a lot of debate on here about where and what Kaaba is and about where to turn in Salat, but the question I have is, what is the answer according to al-Qur'an?

The answer is in the debates on this topic- Different people have different interpretations, it is the diversity that God has willed for us
Either we take the given opinion as to the truth and are happy with it, or we study the book and come maybe sometimes to different results.
Finally, we must always ask ourselves, which questions are central and important for our faith and our salvation - what is the main message of the Quran? What does God want from us? it is important that we pray to a supposed Qibla or Kaaba, if God is the east and the west?
I can explain my opinion on the subject, but I'm sure I'll tell it nothing new.
It only remains for me the advice read and examine the various arguments, to finally come to your personal conclusion.
) Salam

Wakas

salaam,

You ask an excellent question. There is much debate because the traditional understanding is riddled with problems.

It just so happens that I am in the process of writing an article on 'al masjid al haram' (part 3 of my series on SuJuD). In it I will offer an alternative that fits much better in my view.

However, since it might be a week or so till I finish it, God Willing, I can post what I have written on the "change of qiblah" verses, for people to ponder over if they wish

Abbreviations
AMAH = al masjid al haram
AQ = al quran

The following is a list of the problems regarding this traditional explanation

It is entirely an interpretation based on external sources (i.e. traditions). The terms "kaabah", "mecca", "AMAH", "turn your wajh/face/consideration", "masjid" etc are NEVER discussed elsewhere in AQ involving a specific physical direction, nor is an example given of anyone performing salat in a particular direction. Some cite 4102 but please see part 1 of this series for its analysis.
The word "qiblah" does not clearly mean "prayer direction" in any AQ occurrence, nor does the root QBL in any form.
All traditional commentators translate the only other occurrence of the specifc noun "qiblah" (apart from these verses) in 1087 as "oratories / places of worship" not "prayer direction". The likely reason is that to do so would make little sense as 1087 says "...and make your houses a qiblah...". Further, they turn it into a plural here, whilst elsewhere it is singular.
In addition to 2142, the following verses also clearly imply turning to a specific direction is irrelevant, e.g. 2115 says "for God is the east and the west so wherever you turn so there is God's wajh/presence/consideration...", 2177 "...it is not righteousness that you turn your wujuh/faces/considerations towards/qibala the east and the west...". Note the similar words used "turn/walla", "wherever/ayna", "wajh/face/consideration", and these messages (the only ones of their kind) are only found in chapter 2, and the only times verb form 2 of "turn" is used in chapter 2 are 2115, 2142-150, 2177. Some commentators explain this away by saying there was no prayer direction initially, and later this was abrogated, and so on. However, note that in terms of sequence, this same message is given prior to AND after the "change of qiblah" verses. Interestingly, some traditional commentators accept that any direction is not special, and the only thing that makes it special is God having imposed it, no other reason.
The verses do not say turn in the direction of the "Kaabah", but AMAH. One may ask then, what does one do once inside AMAH or next to it.
The verses do not say turn your wajh DURING salat, this is an inserted interpretation. In fact, it explicitly says "wherever you are" / "wherever thou start or come forth", implying no limitation, and if so, this would make it impossible to face one direction all the time.
Technically, it is impossible to face an object on a spheroid (i.e. earth) if you are a long distance away from it. One actually faces a random point in space, and even if one were to draw a line on the earth's surface in a direction towards the intended object being even one degree off can result in being many miles away from the object. Thus, it is actually near impossible to do, unless in close proximity to the object, so if one wishes to take this interpretation, one must accept facing one direction is symbolic only.

8 ) Note how 2141 clearly implies the past is the past, but according to the traditional understanding the verses which follow are about resuming the qiblah of Abraham et al. Seems a mixed message.

The reason given for the apparent change in qiblah is "not will be for the people against you debate", and "that I may complete My favour upon you and so that you may be guided". The traditional commentators try to explain these away using traditions, see Al Jalalayn (altafsir.com), ibn Kathir (qtafsir.com), Asad (quranix.net). Interestingly, traditional Islamic history shows that their relations with the Jewish tribes of Medina only worsened after this point - potentially contradicting the reasoning offered in AQ.
2145 says "...nor will they follow each other's qiblah..." - a much missed point is the fact that the traditional understanding of "qiblah" as "prayer direction" requires the people of the book to have a minimum of TWO different "qiblah" or "prayer directions" in order to make sense logically, i.e. Jews pray one direction, Christians pray another. I did not find a commentator who explained this away. It is possible they did not realise this. However, there is apparently some evidence to suggest early Christians prayed facing east, and Jews faced Jerusalem, thus satisfying the two-minimum criteria. To me the context of this suggests people can have many qiblah, even their own individual qiblah, i.e. more than two.
If these verses were revealed in Medina, as alleged, then the direction of Jerusalem from there is clearly north-west, not west.
If facing the cuboid called "Kaabah" pleased the messenger, as implied in 2144, then it should be noted it was full of idols at the time, as even accepted in traditional sources. They allege that since it was the first house dedicated to worship, built by Abraham, this was more important than the fact it was filled with idols and a pagan symbol, hence "pleased".
IF the cuboid called "Kaabah" was also the qiblah of Abraham, as agreed upon by traditionalists, then it should be noted prophets Moses and Jesus (who came after Abraham) were NEVER recorded, in any source, as visiting it nor facing it during prayer. This would be extremely unusual. Thus, the explanation sometimes given is that Jerusalem was the legitimate qiblah for Moses/Jesus, and then the original qiblah (i.e. cuboid called Kaabah) was restored with the final revelation, i.e. Quran. This requires us to believe for some reason God changed it, then restored it, and now seemingly assigns blame to the people of the book for not accepting this change. Can we really blame them for not changing, as this explanation is tantamount to God being the source of confusion, which is unacceptable in my view. Further, it is implied in 2146 that some of the people of the kitab/book know that this change is the truth, implying in their own scriptures somewhere this qiblah is mentioned or that their qiblah will be superseded by a future messenger etc - if so, where is this information? Perhaps further research needs to be done in this area.
AMAH as a building likely did not exist at the time, as admitted by traditional sources, and refers to the area/site (see Encyclopaedia of Quran, volume 3, p77). How this was delineated is anyone's guess. Please note some commentators regard AMAH as Mecca in some verses, e.g. 928.
As is clear from the last part of 2144, the only requirement for knowing the true "qiblah" is to be given the decree/scripture from our Lord. There is no requirement to have a compass or to consult a geographical map to know the true "qiblah" from our Lord.
IF the Jerusalem qiblah was appointed by God, then indirectly implies the messenger was dissatisfied with such a qiblah when 2144 says "...We see thy face/consideration shifting in the sky..." and "...that will please thee...", i.e. was the messenger dissatisfied with a command from God?
The use of masculine suffix pronoun "hu/it" in these verses is somewhat problematic, as IF "it" refers to AMAH as a physical building then it seems odd (e.g. they recognise it/AMAH as they recognise their sons). Tafsir Al Jalalayn states the "it" in 2146 refers to Muhammad, Ibn Kathir says it could be Muhammad or Kaabah but unfortunately for him the latter is a feminine noun so it cannot be that. Perhaps Ibn Kathir meant AMAH. Some translators imply the "it" refers to the qiblah but again, this is a feminine noun (see the use of feminine "ha/it" in 2143 for confirmation of this). For me, the variance is telling. It should be strongly noted that in AQ Abraham is never said to have built AMAH, nor is it explicitly mentioned in his presence, thus for the people of the writ/decree to link this to Abraham and recognise AMAH as the truth is somewhat difficult.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to state with certainty what the masculine pronoun "hu" refers to, but in my humble opinion, the flow and logic of the verses suggest it=AMAH, especially considering the usage of "it is the truth from your Lord" in 2144, 2147 and 2149.

1 2145 would imply that if the messenger were to follow their qiblah after these revelations then he would be a wrongdoer and following their desires, yet he was apparently following it previously. Is there a precedent for this in AQ, i.e. doing X is allowed then a future revelation clearly changes doing X to desires/wrongdoing? Not to my knowledge.

The expression "turn + wajh", is used in 679 and rendered as "I shall turn my face to the One who created the heavens and the earth..." but explained as "making his religion and works sincere" (e.g. Ibn Kathir), likely because this was prior to the alleged building of the cuboid called "Kaaba", thus to render it as a physical direction when such a place did not exist would be problematic for Traditionalists, yet they take this same phrase to mean physical directional command here. Also see "wajh" in 'Verbal Idioms of Quran' by Mustansir Mir. This shows that this phrase does have a link to mindset/sincerity/intention/approach/etc even in traditional sources. The phrase is also used in 2822 (albeit "turn" is verb form 5 not 2) and likely denotes an actual physical turning of one's face, but uses the Arabic word "tilq'aa" for "towards" not "shatra (in the direction)" like these verses. Perhaps "til'qaa" is more appropriate for a physical turning towards, also see 747. It is somewhat peculiar "shatra" is used, rather than the more common "ila/to" for example, IF it did mean a physical face turning towards/to something.
As a side note, also recall how in part 2 it was shown the phrase "aqim wajh" had no link to a physical face or directional command.
IF it was a reference to turning towards another direction in prayer, then to me, it seems odd that in 2142 it states the foolish (al sufahau) will ask "what has turned them from..." when this seems like a reasonable question to ask. Think about it, if you were there as an observer, and a group prayed towards X then Y for about 18 months (as the traditional story goes) then back to X again, wouldn't you ask "why" also? If so, you are of the foolish ones according to the traditional understanding.

Background
Part 1 http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
Part 2 http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

boricuaboi85

Thank you all for the answers. I will have to study this more in depth. I appreciate all of the references and linguistic aid.

hawk99

From Wakas,
Technically, it is impossible to face an object on a spheroid (i.e. earth) if you are a long distance away from it. One actually faces a random point in space, and even if one were to draw a line on the earth's surface in a direction towards the intended object being even one degree off can result in being many miles away from the object. Thus, it is actually near impossible to do, unless in close proximity to the object, so if one wishes to take this interpretation, one must accept facing one direction is symbolic only.

In reading Quran I always ask myself "why is this ayat correct," Why face Mecca on a spheroid.
I'm not a scholar or scientist but facing point "B" appears to be self explanatory. In my opinion,
over analyzing, concluding multiple meanings, pedantic arguments, not understanding one's own
language, is the one of the reasons why our worship takes so many forms.

Peace O0

Wakas

salaam,

...facing point "B" appears to be self explanatory. In my opinion,
over analyzing, concluding multiple meanings, pedantic arguments, not understanding one's own
language, is the one of the reasons why our worship takes so many forms.

You say that, but allow me to quote myself "...so if one wishes to take this interpretation, one must accept facing one direction is symbolic only."

I have no problem if one wishes to face a far-away object in a certain direction, as long as they are aware they are actually facing a random point in space, and even if they were to walk in such a direction, they would miss that target-object 99% of the time. Hence symbolic only.

Perhaps you can tell us how the other issues highlighted are "self-explanatory" to you. Look forward to your response.

unknownuser

So, I have seen a lot of debate on here about where and what Kaaba is and about where to turn in Salat, but the question I have is, what is the answer according to al-Qur'an?

Peace boricuaboi85,

I posted a thread on this last week, and got a lesson in Arabic, LOL! It's okay though, because it really made me think.

Often times we tend to limit God with our interpretation...as if God could not/would not accept our worship if we weren't facing one way or another. A blind person has no idea of what direction they are facing...they can't even use the sun as a guide...so is Allah so cruel as to not accept their worship or prayers? I personally do not think so.

Doctrine trips us up so often...and I honestly believe it is a test from Allah. He is All-Knowing...I believe he knew that people would take His words and twist and use them for thier own benefit, which is why some things aren't clearly written (i.e. parables).

I still face east when I pray, simply because I don't have the answer to the question of "direction" yet.

Peace,

Amina

mirjamnur

Peace boricuaboi85,

I posted a thread on this last week, and got a lesson in Arabic, LOL! It's okay though, because it really made me think.

Often times we tend to limit God with our interpretation...as if God could not/would not accept our worship if we weren't facing one way or another. A blind person has no idea of what direction they are facing...they can't even use the sun as a guide...so is Allah so cruel as to not accept their worship or prayers? I personally do not think so.

Doctrine trips us up so often...and I honestly believe it is a test from Allah. He is All-Knowing...I believe he knew that people would take His words and twist and use them for thier own benefit, which is why some things aren't clearly written (i.e. parables).

I still face east when I pray, simply because I don't have the answer to the question of "direction" yet.

Peace,

Amina

you say very right words here...
Salam

boricuaboi85

Thank you for the replies. I have a lot to think on.

Wakas

Here is the link to the article I referred to earlier

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

hawk99

salaam,
You say that, but allow me to quote myself "...so if one wishes to take this interpretation, one must accept facing one direction is symbolic only."
I have no problem if one wishes to face a far-away object in a certain direction, as long as they are aware they are actually facing a random point in space, and even if they were to walk in such a direction, they would miss that target-object 99% of the time. Hence symbolic only.
Perhaps you can tell us how the other issues highlighted are "self-explanatory" to you. Look forward to your response.

Peace Wakas, sorry for the late response

Not symbolic, but practical and organizational.

There are two different answers for calculating the Qibla (the direction for prayer). One method is the ?constant compass? distance. To visualize this, imagine a world map that uses the Mercator projection. Mark your location "A" and Mecca "B" and draw a line between them. From Philadelphia Pa. (my home), that direction is about 103? clockwise from North, or roughly Southeast (but more East than South).

Another method is to use the shortest distance between two cities. The easiest way to visualize that is to get a globe, put one finger on your location and one on Mecca, and then to turn the globe so that both fingers are lying on an imaginary ?equator?. What you?re really doing is finding a great circle ? a circle that cuts the globe in half ? that passes through both Mecca and your town.

Note the Quran does not mention distance, but direction, to face, so the distance or great circle method
is erroneous.

2143] We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

I hope this is helpful

Peace O0

Noon_waalqalami

Not symbolic, but practical and organizational.

There are two different answers for calculating the Qibla (the direction for prayer). One method is the ?constant compass? distance. To visualize this, imagine a world map that uses the Mercator projection. Mark your location "A" and Mecca "B" and draw a line between them. From Philadelphia Pa. (my home), that direction is about 103? clockwise from North, or roughly Southeast (but more East than South).

Another method is to use the shortest distance between two cities. The easiest way to visualize that is to get a globe, put one finger on your location and one on Mecca, and then to turn the globe so that both fingers are lying on an imaginary ?equator?. What you?re really doing is finding a great circle ? a circle that cuts the globe in half ? that passes through both Mecca and your town.

Note the Quran does not mention distance, but direction, to face, so the distance or great circle method
is erroneous.

Peace -- practical and organizational while walking or ridding in any direction?

2238 guard on the prayers and the prayer the middle and stand to God obedient
2239 so if you fear so walking or riding so when secure so remember The God as what He taught you what not you were knowing

hawk99

Peace -- practical and organizational while walking or ridding in any direction?
2238 guard on the prayers and the prayer the middle and stand to God obedient
2239 so if you fear so walking or riding so when secure so remember The God as what He taught you what not you were knowing

Peace Noon waalqalami,

The post only applies to one being stationary.

Bigmo

So, I have seen a lot of debate on here about where and what Kaaba is and about where to turn in Salat, but the question I have is, what is the answer according to al-Qur'an?

Qibla is prayer direction. This is known since the Quran talked about Jewish and Christian ibla. Both these religions have a tradition about facing east when praying. Where it is is not relevant as verse 2.177 tells us.

wrkmmn

peace

you monotheist and reformist always disrespecting mecca and the Kabba. Read this from the words of Jesus.

JOHN 419-21 19 ?Sir,? the woman said, ?I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.?

21 ?Woman,? Jesus replied, ?believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem

So if not in jerusalem then where? A Muslim would say Mecca, but you reformist and monotheist, where do you say God should be worshiped?

The Kaaba in Mecca is geographically posotined by the golden ratio or what some scientist call the fingerprint of God.
Check this video. http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2323zkQUM

Bigmo

peace

you monotheist and reformist always disrespecting mecca and the Kabba. Read this from the words of Jesus.

JOHN 419-21 19 ?Sir,? the woman said, ?I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.?

21 ?Woman,? Jesus replied, ?believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem

So if not in jerusalem then where? A Muslim would say Mecca, but you reformist and monotheist, where do you say God should be worshiped?

The Kaaba in Mecca is geographically posotined by the golden ratio or what some scientist call the fingerprint of God.
Check this video. http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2323zkQUM

Just remember verse 2.177 when ever you discuss Qibla.

noshirk

Qibla is prayer direction. This is known since the Quran talked about Jewish and Christian ibla. Both these religions have a tradition about facing east when praying. Where it is is not relevant as verse 2.177 tells us.

Just remember verse 2.177 when ever you discuss Qibla.

Salaam Bigmo

Please give us the traduction you have for 2-177
i have read it many times and i have seen no qibla, no jews, no christians and no prayer.
Are you sure for the verse number ?
if so, who are the people "turning face" to the west and who are the people "turning face" to the east and why God is saying that such doing is not piety ?

Peace

Bigmo

Salaam Bigmo

Please give us the traduction you have for 2-177
i have read it many times and i have seen no qibla, no jews, no christians and no prayer.
Are you sure for the verse number ?
if so, who are the people "turning face" to the west and who are the people "turning face" to the east and why God is saying that such doing is not piety ?

Peace

And even if thou shouldst bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow thy qiblah, nor canst thou be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou wouldst indeed be of the wrongdoers.
002145

As far as verse 2.177 this is because Qibla is a ritual and rituals are a means to an end and not an end by themselves.

Both Judaism and Christianity have a tradition of facing a Qibla when praying.

noshirk

And even if thou shouldst bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow thy qiblah, nor canst thou be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou wouldst indeed be of the wrongdoers.
002145

As far as verse 2.177 this is because Qibla is a ritual and rituals are a means to an end and not an end by themselves.

Both Judaism and Christianity have a tradition of facing a Qibla when praying.

about to 2-145
How to FOLLOW a qibla if it is a fixed cubic stone ?
You seems to consider "muslims" as not part of who was given the book ? Do you consider yourself as people of the book ?

Is there a verse that clearly says that we should "pray" towards a qibla ?

Peace.