Confused...Where is the Kaaba? What is the Qiblah?

Aamer

Peace boricuaboi85,

I posted a thread on this last week, and got a lesson in Arabic, LOL! It's okay though, because it really made me think.

Often times we tend to limit God with our interpretation...as if God could not/would not accept our worship if we weren't facing one way or another. A blind person has no idea of what direction they are facing...they can't even use the sun as a guide...so is Allah so cruel as to not accept their worship or prayers? I personally do not think so.

Doctrine trips us up so often...and I honestly believe it is a test from Allah. He is All-Knowing...I believe he knew that people would take His words and twist and use them for thier own benefit, which is why some things aren't clearly written (i.e. parables).

I still face east when I pray, simply because I don't have the answer to the question of "direction" yet.

Peace,

Amina

That's exactly where I stand right now. At first I was racking my brain trying to figure out if I should face Jerusalem or Makkah. Then there are some who say that Prophet Muhammad never lived in Makkah and that he was from Petra. So much confusion. But really, are we responsible for knowing all this? We weren't around when he lived and can't go back in time. We have no way of knowing with certainty. What we do have is this Quran as sufficient proof that there is a God and that there was a prophet he sent named Muhammad to deliver this message. I think that's enough. I'm not going to worry about the details. I'm thinking that's not the point.

I will say this though... If indeed Prophet Muhammad never lived in Makkah and the house that Abraham built was in Jerusalem... This is the greatest cover up in history. Makes the JFK assassination look like childs play. Think about it. The Prophet had a lot of followers by the end of his life. Most of Arabia had converted to Islam. They had been praying and following his lead and this spread fast I'm assuming on matters of ritual practice. How do you fool that many people without controversy?

Bigmo

That's exactly where I stand right now. At first I was racking my brain trying to figure out if I should face Jerusalem or Makkah. Then there are some who say that Prophet Muhammad never lived in Makkah and that he was from Petra. So much confusion. But really, are we responsible for knowing all this? We weren't around when he lived and can't go back in time. We have no way of knowing with certainty. What we do have is this Quran as sufficient proof that there is a God and that there was a prophet he sent named Muhammad to deliver this message. I think that's enough. I'm not going to worry about the details. I'm thinking that's not the point.

I will say this though... If indeed Prophet Muhammad never lived in Makkah and the house that Abraham built was in Jerusalem... This is the greatest cover up in history. Makes the JFK assassination look like childs play. Think about it. The Prophet had a lot of followers by the end of his life. Most of Arabia had converted to Islam. They had been praying and following his lead and this spread fast I'm assuming on matters of ritual practice. How do you fool that many people without controversy?

The early Muslims might not have cared where the Qibla is or even whether Abraham built the Ka'ba or not so they might have never seen the need to complain. I personally believe Muhammad lived in Mecca and as far as Ka'ba is concerned its not relevant since you do not have to face a certain direction when praying. These are all rituals and the early Musllims may not have complained. Its only when the Abbasids came to power and tried to create the "Islamic State" and make things binding that opposition came.

Aamer

The early Muslims might not have cared where the Qibla is or even whether Abraham built the Ka'ba or not so they might have never seen the need to complain. I personally believe Muhammad lived in Mecca and as far as Ka'ba is concerned its not relevant since you do not have to face a certain direction when praying. These are all rituals and the early Musllims may not have complained. Its only when the Abbasids came to power and tried to create the "Islamic State" and make things binding that opposition came.

Makes a lot of sense. I will research this more. Probably to no solid conclusions. I also believe Muhammad lived in Makkah. So there was no great civilization found in Makkah before the 4 century. Do what if there was no great trading route going through Makkah until then. It doesn't mean Prophet Muhammad wasn't from there. Moses grew up in Egypt. Jesus was born in Bethlehem and grew up in Nazareth. Abraham reportedly lived in Syria. Refer weren't from Jerusalem either. And I agree with you that direction does not matter. But do you believe that Abraham built the kaaba in Makkah? And what do you believe is the Qibla (focal point) that God talks about in Quran? Just curious.

Bigmo

Makes a lot of sense. I will research this more. Probably to no solid conclusions. I also believe Muhammad lived in Makkah. So there was no great civilization found in Makkah before the 4 century. Do what if there was no great trading route going through Makkah until then. It doesn't mean Prophet Muhammad wasn't from there. Moses grew up in Egypt. Jesus was born in Bethlehem and grew up in Nazareth. Abraham reportedly lived in Syria. Refer weren't from Jerusalem either. And I agree with you that direction does not matter. But do you believe that Abraham built the kaaba in Makkah? And what do you believe is the Qibla (focal point) that God talks about in Quran? Just curious.

When I read the verses about Abraham built the "house" it does seem to be the one in Mecca. Maybe he did and maybe he did not. Maybe he did pray there and maybe he did not. The Bible tells us that the story of Hagar and the spring water was not in Mecca but Beersheeba but does not say much about the full story of Abraham. These prophets lives are not told by scriptures in its fullest. We know little of Joseph later years or Moses's early years. What the Quran felt we need to know it told us. So I do not really care too much about whether Abraham was in Mecca or not since many prophets we know were never there. Moses we know never set foot on Jerusalem or Mecca. Joseph also was never reported to have set foot in Jersalem or Mecca as many other prophets also.

As far as where the Qibla is that is a good question. From the verses of the Quran my take is that it was initially Mecca and then changed as a trial to see who was a believer and who was a Meccan nationalist because the other way around would not have been a trial to the believers since most believers of the Quran at the time were Meccans. But whether it was changed to Jerusalem or not i am not sure. There are some archaeology that says early mosques faced southern palestine probably where Beersheeba is. Maybe it was jerusalem or maybe it was somewhere else or maybe it ended up being Mecca. But in the end it does not matter and that is why the Quran is not explicit about it. What we need to know the Quran will let us know. The Ummayids and Abbasids were both Meccan dynasties so it was to there advantage to make the Qibla Mecca.

I do believe haj is in Mecca and that the Ka'ba is what the Quran is refering to as the "house". Haj to me was a ritual that the pagans of Mecca had and the Quran wanted it to be converted to a monotheistic goal. We are told in the Quran that all nations have rituals and ceremonies and rites and many nations have temples where pilgrimages are performed. But the goal of the Quran is not to change those rituals but to direct them to God and not manufactured deities. As far as any Abrahamic connection to the haj I am not sure. But its not relevant from a Quranic perspective.

oneknlr

Peace everyone, this is a really interesting thread. I tried to figure out the meanings of Ka'ba, Qibla and AMAH, and how they relate or not.

As far as verse 2.177 this is because Qibla is a ritual and rituals are a means to an end and not an end by themselves.

Yes. I believe so to.

Haj to me was a ritual that the pagans of Mecca had and the Quran wanted it to be converted to a monotheistic goal.

Yups. As an example for other places/rituals.

To my understanding qibla (focal point) as two components

a practical one; everyone praying in different directions during group prayer will simply not work
a spiritual one; the qibla is (with) God.

Verse 2.177 is indeed a beautiful way to tell us that the practical qibla a mere practical detail.

When I pray in group I follow along with the house rule. When praying alone, I pray in a practical direction that has not much significance. The higher, spiritual direction I set towards God.

Salaam.

hicham9

Salam everyone,

I'm not sure what's all the fuss about!
In the Qur'an, ALLAH (SWT) "repeatedly" instruct us to "turn our faces" toward "al-Masjid al-Haram".

http//quran.com/images/ayat/2_144.png

http//quran.com/images/ayat/2_149.png

http//quran.com/images/ayat/8_34.png

http//quran.com/images/ayat/22_25.png

http//quran.com/images/ayat/2_150.png

We should say " "

http//quran.com/search?q=masjid+haram

http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=con%3Amasjid-al-haram

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=97#%285971%29

Aamer

My son was doing his school project on Islam. His sculpture was the kaaba. As I was helping him, doing a lot of research, it got my mind curious again. I've done Hajj once and Umra many times. I've gotten to see Mecca, Alhamdulillah. I always had a very incongruent feeling about doing circles around the kaaba and seeing the way people treat the black stone. It feels not quite right to me and looks a lot like pagan idol worship. During Hajj, I was with my parents and a lot of relatives who are old. So I threw everyone's share of rocks at the "devil rock". I got pelted in the head with rocks many times in the process. The whole time I kept thinking "This is stupid. This can NOT be Islam." So doing this project with my son, I learned that this rock throwing is a pre-Islamic pagan ritual. The kaaba is said to have been a Hindu temple. It's the only idol that still exists. The black stone also has pagan roots. The 7 circles around the kaaba is a Hindu ritual. Come to think of it, I've seen hindus doing it with my own eyes as I have attended Hindu festivals before just to watch. So the question is... Are these really pagan rituals or Abrahamic rituals that were later paganized? It's very confusing. If I ever go back to Mecca, I wouldn't even know what to do. And I wouldn't even know if I'm in the house that Abraham built. Although my gut instinct tells me that Mecca is the Qibla, I think the Muslims of the Abbasid period were literally capable of ANYTHING. If it benefited them to move the Qibla, I have no doubt they'd do it in a heartbeat. Very little is known about Islam during the Prophet's time and the first 150 years after him. All I know is that every image we associate with Islam did not exist (Minarets, Muslim architecture, "Sunnah" clothing, pagan crescent moon symbol, prayer caps, etc). So is it such a stretch that the kaaba and location of the Qibla were also added later? I don't know. Anyway, that's my rant. Peace!

Man_of_Faith

Peace Aamer,

I think documents were burned which preserved the history surrounding the events of this time or otherwise there would be more information left from then. This era is a black hole in history for some reason, not only about Muhammad but also everything else.

Even other events are more throughly recorded than these Arabian ones.

My thesis is that because of the blasphemous background of hadith the previous documents had to be hidden or burned somehow. There are signs that the original manuscript of Quran was destroyed and that may not be the only thing obliterated.

The whole lack of historical documentation surrounding Muhammad and the 7th century is suspicious, especially since the story was said to have been written down 200 years later. If you document something you do it at the time of an event and not later. That not even one piece of evidence remains from the precise date of events is very alarming and gives more weight on not to believe a single word of what is proclaimed in hadith, or at least look at them with a grain of salt. I think the unreliable nature of hadith makes it useless as historical evidence unfortunately. No one would use such thing as information for historical reference and remain logical.

Regarding Kabaa, I know this building is not intended to be covered in black fabric and it was not of a cubic form until about 500 years ago when the previous construct of walls feel apart due to deterioration. It looked like an abbey or something in the past as far as my research has told me, with a back wall in a semi-circular shape.

The choice to reform it into a cube and cover it in black can be from more Satanic influence, I am not sure. The whole building is now an idol not used as but like a statue.

On a side-note, I am having a gutfeeling that the site of kabaa is the same as in the past, only the whole place has changed into a pagan ritual site, just like before Muhammad came around with the revelation of the Quran and clear admonitions from God. Now the idols are no longer the ancient ones like Baal and company, but Muhammad and the kabaa seems to be a connotation to this practice. I have certain proof from classical prayers of traditional muslims to show they are in fact devoted to Shaytaan, I will prove this later in a thread intended for that discussion. It will be based on firsthand observation.

The rite of symbolically stoning Satan is a practice not prescribed by God. I doubt God even approves of stoning of Satan to be honest. The penalty of stoning has nothing to do with God but is a man-made invention.

Thanks for me and I hope something of what I said was useful to people. Our sunni friends on this forum will probably not like what I wrote, but I guess the Truth is more important than refraining from posting.

God bless you

Aamer

I am curios to hear about classical prayers being devoted to Shaitan. Can you elaborate, either here or start a new post? I have serious doubts about certain aspects of Sunni Salat. I feel it has been corrupted.

Man_of_Faith

Peace Aamer,

I will eventually say in another thread, but I must ponder a while so I speak wisely. The first criticism I thought of was mainly aimed at shia namaz though. In rakah 3 and 4 they mumble a few phrases in such a way you get the feeling they are not intended for God.

Another thing is the devotion by the imam in his way of uttering the prayer wordings, they feel horribly close to the prayers in Satanic cults.

I will elaborate it all at some point in a dedicated thread.

God bless you

kgwithnob

Peace Aamer,

I will eventually say in another thread, but I must ponder a while so I speak wisely. The first criticism I thought of was mainly aimed at shia namaz though. In rakah 3 and 4 they mumble a few phrases in such a way you get the feeling they are not intended for God.

Another thing is the devotion by the imam in his way of uttering the prayer wordings, they feel horribly close to the prayers in Satanic cults.

I will elaborate it all at some point in a dedicated thread.

God bless you

All the highlights above are from me.

Dear Man of Faith,

You are conjecturing. What they recite in the 3rd & 4th rak?ah of their salaat is, ?SUBHAANALLAAHI, WALHAMDULILLAAHI, WLAA ILAAHA ILLALLAAHU, WALLAAHU AKBAR?, which literally means, ?GLORY BE TO ALLAAH, AND ALL PRAISES ARE FOR ALLAAH, AND THERE IS NO god BUT ALLAAH, AND ALLAAH IS GREAT?. This supplication is known as ?the four glorifications? or ?TASBIHAATI ?ARA?AH? in Arabic.

So, it is not a mumbling, and not ?SATANIC? either. If I were you, I would be a bit more careful in choosing my words, not to insult anyone or any group.

Peace,
Khalil

kgwithnob

Some people here are in the business of ?REINVENTING the wheel? all over. City of Mecca, Almasjidulharaam, the KA'BAH, and the Qiblah are among those ?wheels? that, in their opinion, need to be REINVENTED. This reminds me of a story.

Once upon a time there was this dude upon the roof doing some maintenance work, unknowingly walking towards the edge. Someone from below warned him of getting too close to the edge and falling down. The guy got scared and started walking backward till he fell off the opposite side!

What I mean is that, the sectarians interpolated so much man-maid nonsense, i.e. hadeeth, sunnah, rwawyah (shi?ah equivalent of hadeeth) into our religion Islam, that The Qur?aan, as the true source of our guidance became distanced and forgotten. See 2530. This is one extreme, falling off the front side.

On the other hand, there are some who instead of cleaning the house and using it the way it was built for, they?re trying to DEMOLISH it completely and rebuild/REINVENT it from scratch, ?interpreting? the original blueprint, i.e. The Qur?aan, according to their own whim and conjectures only. This is the other extreme, falling off the rear side.

Then there is a third group. They believe that Islam was not started with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Islamic rituals have been firmly in place and practiced for thousands of years. SALAAH, ZAKAAH, SAWM, and HAJJ, all are very old Islamic practices. In The Qur?aan, ALLAAH (SWT) has made corrections to any one of them that had been corrupted by MAN, like wudzu/abultion . The ones that had been intact and not altered, GOD has not brought them up in The Qur?aan, so no mention of how to perform them, just like the ritual of circumcision. At the time, even the disbelievers used to come to the congregational prayers, but only for show off and in the state of boredom, and did not pay Zakat but in the state of unwillingness. See 954.

The Prophet himself just followed their common practice like everyone else within the community. He did not invent any new rituals.

The point is that Muslims have no quarrels with the sectarians other than saying that the religion MUST be about the worship of GOD Alone. All we are saying to them is to stop idolizing the prophets and ?saints? and worship GOD only. We?ve been telling them to obey GOD through The Qru?aan alone and do NOT make any differentiations among the messengers or GOD. We are saying that the Shahaadah/the testimony of faith must be all about GOD Alone. We are saying to them not to mention any other name in their prayers except GOD. We are saying to them not to call upon anyone else in their call to prayer/ADZAN, but GOD. We are saying not to implore anyone in your DU?AA?, but GOD. We are saying to them The Qur?aan is the ONLY source of religious guidance; do not use any other source like hadeeth, sunnah, rawaayah, and? alongside with The Qur?aan. We are telling them that there is only one SACRED mosque/Almasjidulharaam and that is the one in the city of Mecca with the KA?BAH right in the middle of its courtyard. We are saying to them that the months of performing HAJJ pilgrimage are the four consecutive sacred/HARAAM months. We are asking them to restore those FOUR months back to their original places within the lunar calendar in order to minimize the hardship on the people trying to perform their GOD prescribed HAJJ pilgrimage. And finally, we are telling them not to make unlawful what GOD has not made unlawful and vice versa.

We are not declaring anything new. We are just propagating the practice of the faith according to The Qur?aan Alone. We are telling them to reform and repent and come back to The Qur?aan. That?s all.

Peace,
Khalil

hawk99