New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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peace rlz,
Can you direct me to where you posted information about the origins of the Arabic word QBL (ideally with source). I would be surprised if my analysis was way off the Hebrew/Aramaic meanings, albeit I do not consider alleged origin words as definitive proof of a meaning when used in Arabic Quran.
e.g.
http//judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/5778/are-the-aramaic-root-%D7%A7-%D7%91-%D7%9C-and-the-hebrew-root-%D7%A7-%D7%91-%D7%9C-relatedYour analysis is obscuring the usage of the same aramaic root in Daniel. Coincidentally there it is clear evidence of being a direction pointing to a geographical place. If you don't feel a loanword can be studied from studying its donor language then you are proving my point.
If your analysis was correct the aramaic qbl shouldn't be there in Daniel used as a geographical direction. You further substantiate this by only testing the traditional thesis of Masjid Al-Haram being in Mecca. The thesis of Temple Mount is thrown out the door with very poor arguments (being a place of conflict today - which is factually incorrect).
The historical data for the Temple Mount thesis are totally absent. This while during the era of revelation of Quran, Jerusalem was controlled by byzantine christians and polytheists (persians) - controlling the access of jews to Temple Mount. All three of those historical actors are mentioned in the verses dealing with the Qibla. They should at least be part of your analysis, for that reason alone.
In the entire length of your article the keyword "Temple Mount" is entirely absent. Why are you afraid to test this thesis in your analysis? This is my main criticism your conclusion is preemptive. You can't conclude qibla is not a geographical location when the location of Temple Mount is simply ignored. This illustrates how good a job the sectarians did. Not only do they succeed in convincing many to believe there was a change in qibla ordered by God, they also succeeded in fooling most muslims the masjid al-haram can't possibly be Temple Mount because we all know it is Mecca. When reading your article I get a strong feeling you are still indoctrinated by the hadith fabricated change in qiblah and hadith replacement of Temple Mount by the Kaaba in Mecca. I challenge you to look at those critically. Do you really think some insignificant place that is nowhere mentioned in any contemporary historical record, called Mecca, is the correct identification of masjid-al haram? If you agree it can't be, anyone sincere would examine if the change in qibla itself wasn't a lie.
For online documentation dealing with the qbl loanword in hebrew I would have to google myself. If I find good references online I will link them in this thread.
Peace
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Rls,
You should be careful using sectarian references (such as the Tanakh) to prove your point. It is not like the Judah doctrine was not full of Pagan corruption. Compare older narratives in the Bible and you see they are never seen observe some timed ritual. Jesus does not observe any prayer ritual in the New Testament.
Daniel has a very questionable origin and Daniel is not mentioned about in Quran.
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Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/009.%20A3.gif
Indeed the Mushrikuen; the worshipers of hand sculpted statues calling them iela'aha godheads after assigning various names, are but draggled unclean. Therefore, they should not come near "the inviolable time of SJD" after this year. .
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peace rlz,
If your analysis was correct the aramaic qbl shouldn't be there in Daniel used as a geographical direction.
Please do not confuse your reasoning with sound reasoning. You seem to be implying a usage in a certain occurrence proves that is the meaning in every usage.
I asked you a very simple question, and since you dodged the question, or if you think you answered, that means your citing of an occurrence warrants your conclusion, then I am more than happy to let readers decide for themselves.
Anyone claiming a physical direction during prayer for these verses 2142-150 knows it is built on speculation. The word salat is not even used.
Here is where salat is used AND a physical direction discussed
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and upholds the salat, and who contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of adversity and hardship and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
Simplified
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who........................ upholds the salat...
Conjecture is no substitute for the truth, and Quran cannot be clearer than the above.
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peace Mazhar,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/009.%20A3.gif
Indeed the Mushrikuen; the worshipers of hand sculpted statues calling them iela'aha godheads after assigning various names, are but draggled unclean. Therefore, they should not come near "the inviolable time of SJD" after this year. .
And your point is?
I imagine your point is how can such people be stopped from a time? It's quite simple really.
You are likely thinking of universal time, e.g. like saying don't let them come near 7 oclock, or do not let them come near January.
But that's not what I am suggesting "al masjid al haram" is. It is a special time wherein al hajj takes place, and clearly this takes place in an area. This special time with its various rules etc is enacted in that area, it's not applied everywhere i.e. universal.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604467.msg311309#msg311309
Of course, I am not averse to thinking of it as "the inviolable time/event/institution of acknowledgement" as long as it links back to what is discussed in the article
The evidence gathered in this article very strongly links the meaning of AMAH to a special time-period/event, e.g. the inviolable months (al ashhur al hurum) wherein the HaJJ/feast/symposium takes place. Whatever meaning of AMAH is chosen, if such a link does not underpin the chosen meaning, then it is highly unlikely to fit in AQ. The meanings of 'the inviolable act/institution/place of SJD' do not have this inherent link.
Further, for those advocating 'act/institution/etc of SJD' without a link to something specific/fixed/identifiable (such as 'al ashhur al hurum', a critical question becomes necessary to answer in the many occurrences of "masjid" what makes it "inviolable" sometimes and sometimes not? I personally do not see how this can be soundly answered, except by resorting to arbitrary reasoning.
In addition an answer is also required as to why AMAH is always singular, whilst "masjid" can be singular and plural. As we can see, by not fixing it to something clearly identifiable, getting a logical and coherent answer to these questions seems difficult. In the same way that the ordinary word "shahr (month/full-moon/moon-cycle)" can be linked to "haram" and refer to something specific, the ordinary word "masjid" can be linked to "haram" and refer to something specific. Its meaning and use then becomes easily identifiable and practical.
So, let's say there are inviolable months wherein al hajj is done, various restrictions are in place etc etc. If one were living at that time, and were to refer to this time-period/event, what phrase/term would one use? Please ponder on this. In my view, AQ uses AMAH.Without this link I don't see how an alternative meaning can work.
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But that's not what I am suggesting "al masjid al haram" is. It is a special time wherein al hajj takes place, and clearly this takes place in an area. This special time with its various rules etc is enacted in that area, it's not applied everywhere i.e. universal.
Do you think the word "time" can collocate the word "invoilable? Any example from entire English corpus!!!
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Do you think the word "time" can collocate the word "invoilable? Any example from entire English corpus!!!
Yes.
And no I do not have other examples in English wherein "inviolable" and "time" are used together.Rather than vain/theoretical objections, do you have any solid objections to the hypothesis al masjid al haram ~ the inviolable time of sujud/acknowledgement ?
I wrote the article a while ago, and I haven't seen any so far. I'm looking for things like your view contradicts Quran verse XYZ, it is illogical because XYZ, it is impractical because of XYZ.
Also, rather than attempting to object to my view, why not answer the objections I raise about other alternatives, and tell us how your view can answer them. Please begin your own thread for this with your own article on 'al masjid al haram'.
This is about weighing the evidence of the various options, allowing readers to select which one is strongest. Put your evidence on the table for all to see. Simple.
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the inviolable time of sujud/acknowledgement
This seems to be improved version of earlier quote
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).
"The invoilable time of sujud" seems a meaningful phrase in the context of As-Salt which is a time bound protocol.
"The invoilable time of acknowledgement" is invalid, meaningless assembly of words.
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Rather than vain/theoretical objections, do you have any solid objections to the hypothesis al masjid al haram ~ the inviolable time of sujud/acknowledgement ?
Firstly we should know morphological and grammatical features of it before its semantics.
- It is an Adjectival Phrase.
In English Adjective phrase "A word group with an adjective as its head. This adjective may be accompanied by modifiers, determiners, and/or qualifiers. Adjective phrases modify nouns. They may be attributive (appearing before the noun) or predicative (appearing after a linking verb), but not all adjectives can be used in both positions." Adjective is defined as "The part of speech that modifies a noun or other substantive by limiting, qualifying, or specifying"
Further details http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective_phrase
In Arabic, the noun comes first. The one being described must come first; it is called and also -the one who is described-portrayed.
The adjective follows the Noun. The description must come second; it is called /adjective. It indicates a meaning in its principle without exception meaning without restrictions, like that of time or other restrictions. It functions as qualitative portrayal of the mentioned noun. Adjective's meaning is not for itself, rather its meaning is found in the noun which it modifies. Most often it is a derivative.
The adjective/ will be masculine if the Noun- is masculine. And if the Noun is feminine the Adjective will also be feminine. Similarly if the Noun is singular, the adjective will also be singular and it will respectively be dual or plural if the noun is dual or plural.
The Noun and Adjective must correspond in definiteness. Both should either be definite or indefinite.
The grammatical case of the Noun is determined by external factors and the case of Adjective will always match it.
In this phrase is the Noun- It is singular, masculine, definite.
It is adjective/ in the phrase.
A phrase is a grammatical unit for semantic purposes.
It might give you some clue to rethink what have you so far understood about this phrase.
- It is an Adjectival Phrase.
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peace rlz,
Please do not confuse your reasoning with sound reasoning. You seem to be implying a usage in a certain occurrence proves that is the meaning in every usage.
Those occurrences should at least be incorporated into your thesis instead of obscuring them. By itself it does not prove anything. But you don't even consider them.
I asked you a very simple question, and since you dodged the question, or if you think you answered, that means your citing of an occurrence warrants your conclusion, then I am more than happy to let readers decide for themselves.
Anyone claiming a physical direction during prayer for these verses 2142-150 knows it is built on speculation. The word salat is not even used.
Here is where salat is used AND a physical direction discussed
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and upholds the salat, and who contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of adversity and hardship and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
Simplified
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who........................ upholds the salat...
Conjecture is no substitute for the truth, and Quran cannot be clearer than the above.
If you would have read me correctly I totally distinct salat from qibla. I think you may have missed that part.
About these verses you quote. See 1778/79
Salat by itself is no guarantee to gain praiseworthiness with God. But it's recommended. I see no argument in there that denies a qibla being Temple Mount.
It only puts those straight who think praying in a certain direction is enough. It doesnt mean anything by itself.I agree with Mazhar your translation is a meaningless assembly of words. Your analysis of the famous wife-beating verses in Quran suffer from a similar phenomenon.
Peace
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Interesting fact about the siege of Jerusalem (637) the city was conquered without shedding blood. Again the historical record matches the Quran with astonishing precision.
Peace
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In my opinion it is highly recommended to pray in the direction of Temple Mount but it is by no means dogmatic.
Does any Jew and Christian consider the direction of Temple Mount as http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00028.%20Qabal%20Qaaf%20Ba%20Laam%20Before%20confront/8.gif
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Christians don't. Jews do. I covered this already in an earlier message in this thread. See Mizrah.
Peace
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It might give you some clue to rethink what have you so far understood about this phrase.
Please state exactly how my rendering of the phrase is not possible according to the Arabic. Be specific.
If you cannot provide the above, I will assume you concede it is theoretically possible.
To my knowledge, my rendering is perfectly possible, and those knowledgeable of Arabic whom I have spoken with regarding this have never said to the contrary.
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Please state exactly how my rendering of the phrase is not possible according to the Arabic. Be specific.
If you cannot provide the above, I will assume you concede it is theoretically possible.
To my knowledge, my rendering is perfectly possible, and those knowledgeable of Arabic whom I have spoken with regarding this have never said to the contrary.
Dear, even your rendering in English is not cogent.
Time is a semantic field in all the languages of the world. Kindly see as to what words collocate with time in English language.
Similarly place is a semantic field in languages. See what words and prepositions co-occur with words refering to space-location.
Perhaps this might make you feel what illogical assertions you have all along been making, brother.
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Rls,
You should be careful using sectarian references (such as the Tanakh) to prove your point. It is not like the Judah doctrine was not full of Pagan corruption. Compare older narratives in the Bible and you see they are never seen observe some timed ritual. Jesus does not observe any prayer ritual in the New Testament.
Daniel has a very questionable origin and Daniel is not mentioned about in Quran.
I'm referring to that verse for two reasons
- It's the same aramaic donor word imported into hebrew
- It's one of the verses used as a foundation for the Mizrah in Judaism
The other verse that is at the origin of Mizrah is the prayer of Solomon
When your people go to war against their enemies, wherever you send them, and when they pray to you toward this city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name - II Chronicles 634
"then hear from heaven their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause." - II Chronicles 635
"When your people Israel have been defeated by an enemy because they have sinned against you, and when they turn back to you and give praise to your name, praying and making supplication to you in this temple," - 1 Kings 833
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your people Israel and bring them back to the land you gave to their ancestors." - 1 Kings 834
"When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because your people have sinned against you, and when they pray toward this place and give praise to your name and turn from their sin because you have afflicted them," - 1 Kings 835
Masjid Al-Haram is Temple Mount, just look at the many similarities between the Jewish pilgrimage and Hajj. Masjid Al-Haram was controlled by enemies Persians, Byzantines during Muhammads time. He was obliged to go to war and reclaim it, become Gods appointed guardian of Temple Mount. To this day Temple Mount is still under the authority of muslims, the appointed guardians as mentioned in Quran.
Peace
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"The invoilable time of sujud"
Why not you reflect for a second to find above words non-cogent in English language. English language does not recognize "time of sujud". Similarly English language does not recognize "The inviiolable time". It is making mockery of English language, and nothing else.
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There is an invoilable place though. I know I keep repeating myself but this invoilable place was so clearly understood in those days Jerusalem was captured without shedding one drop of blood. The muslim force decided to wait till byzantine supplies were out. Why would they do that if not commanded by Quran?
Peace
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If the Kingdoms of David and Solomon were in fact in Yemen and not the ME, then Sana'a might be in fact where Jerusalem stood.
There was competition for Ka'aba Pilgrimage between Sana'a and Makkah before.
cf. Info from research done by Brother Pazuzu in his threads and 4 essays so far.
links on twitter here
https//twitter.com/inabster/status/581554294073196544
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peace all,
Ayman said
"At this stage, I would venture to say that NONE of the examples that you gave here inherently imply time by themselves"
and
"So in conclusion, the word ?masjid? doesn?t imply time at all but like other words of this form imply a whole system/institution."I happened to come across another of the same form today
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wqt#(21896)
From
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm- They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.
Another verse that talks about timing/"myqat" is 7142 where Moussa is described as completing the "myqat"/timing. So "myqat"/"mawaqit" can signify timing/timings for completion of something.
As I said, the form maf3il (i.e. "masjid" can and does indicate time, and is nothing new in Arabic. Whether "masjid" means this in Quran is another question.
