New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

amin

I dont know if this word hermit has any connection with Arabic Haram or just coincidence,
but it looks functionally the same.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermitage_(religious_retreat)

Masjid al Haram could be religious retreat place/time.

Wakas

peace,

peace Wakas,

if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?

"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.

I can appreciate this objection. I have discussed this previously, e.g.

Some confusion may be resulting from not appreciating that AMAH is a reference for the time-period/event of the inviolable months wherein al hajj is held and various restrictions/guidelines are in place at a locality.

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608271.msg383916#msg383916

In the article, I propose it is referring to the specific mushrikeen in context, i.e. those who violated the treaty.

al hajj /the commemoration, is an event, taking place within the inviolable months, in a designated location. In this location various regulations are in place, run by the community. At this point in time, the believers had triumphed (i.e. the majority) thus going forward they were in charge of this event and the regulation of it. If they make a treaty with whoever, they can determine who attends, trades etc.
To be fair, this understanding requires understanding to some extent the chronology in Quran (especially the latter revealed chapters, e.g. 9), and how at the end the believers seemed to be forming into a confederation.

I am of the view the believers used this event to converge upon one location, leading to triumph. This can be understood in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Mohammed_

peace Wakas,

This is what my observation of your responses for my posts

It seems the contexts starting from the verse 142 in chapter 2 denotes an issue related to geographical direction because, the answer for the question (of the ignorant/foolish) in the beginning verse (with the terms ‘wallaa' and ‘qibla&#039 itself involves geographical directions, i.e. Mashriq & Maghrib.

Your answer was irrelevant. The verse itself mentions geographical directions.

Why Qur'an calls kaba/ AMAH as 'ancient house'?(2229) may be an indication that it is the same one used in ancient times for hajj by former prophets (and so is in the future).

You don’t have enough evidence to disprove the commonly understood meaning of العتيق

if AMAH refers time, this verse makes no sense?

"O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach Al Masjid Al Haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

irrespective of the faith, all people will reach 'the time' as long as they are alive.

You didn’t give/you don’t have a straight answer.

If your theory is the right one/ the truth, you can easily give straight answers to these kinds of questions.

Also, as per your Hajj article, Hajj can take place at a number of places at the same time i.e. there can be more than one makkah, alka’ba etc. But nowhere the Qur’an hints such a possibility/ nowhere the Qur’an mentions/expresses makkah, alka’ba etc.in such a manner (e.g. in plural forms)

Wakas

peace Mohammed,

The issue you point out actually reduces the likelihood of your position, as it requires readers to accept Quran mentions physical directions are irrelevant (east and west) then appoints a physical direction. Doesn't make sense to me but each to their own.

By asking why does Quran not use plural of makkah and/or kaabah shows you have not understood these terms as mentioned in my articles.

My view is "makkah" simply means "crowding", and "al kaabah" simply means the base or the elevation and is specific to the locality wherein al hajj was held at the time. Think of it as a known area/landmark and such a boundary/demarcation is a logical necessity when hosting an event such as al hajj which has various regulations enacted in a specific locality.

almarh0m

Salamun Alaikum

Al Masjid al Haram simply means The Law, which law you may ask? It could be the law/commandments/guidance of Allah and/or the law of the land where people resides. Why else are we told to turn our faces towards al Masjid al Haram wherever we are, if it is not the law? Since to literally turn your faces towards amah is a physical impossibility.

Peace

Wakas

peace almarh0m,

You have mentioned your "the law" theory before, and as I suggested to you then the article provides a checklist to run any understanding through to see if it fits, what issues arise (if any) etc.

It is unfortunate that even those who follow a Quran based islam will claim X but do not even do (what I consider to be) the basics to verify them, yet they keep on claiming X. This type of practice is rife amongst Traditionalists.

Mohammed_

peace Wakas,

You are repeatedly saying physical direction is irrelevant. If you are saying it by referring 2177, then, anyone can understand that 2177 is talking in a manner that turning to a particular direction is not the important thing like what are listed there. Rather, the verse make sense that the practice of turning face to a particular direction was already there among believers (that’s why the Qur’an mentioned it !). And note that the Qur’an does not forbidding it, just saying it is not the important thing.

And as I understand, this having connection with the timed swalat because,

According to the Qur’an, there are two swalat in a day for the believers and the command to turn face towards AMAH comes two times (2144&150). And there are 3 swalat for the prophet and the command to turn face comes 3 times for the prophet (2144,149&150).
If a particular direction is not there for the timed swalat, confusion/dispute may arise which direction to face, especially when doing in group. Each individual may pleased /satisfied in different directions.

I think the saying in 2177 is for those who struggle to maintain a direction for their timed swalat even in adverse situations. e.g.,

In fright/war
When isolated in an unfamiliar land or in the sea on a cloudy day (cannot see sun/moon/stars) so that no means to know directions.

My view is "makkah" simply means "crowding", and "al kaabah" simply means the base or the elevation and is specific to the locality wherein al hajj was held at the time. Think of it as a known area/landmark and such a boundary/demarcation is a logical necessity when hosting an event such as al hajj which has various regulations enacted in a specific locality.

Whatever is the meaning of makkah, alkaabah, alssafa, almarwa etc., nowhere the Qur’an mentions it in such a way that it can occur at multiple places.
Qur’an calls it albait alharam. I cannot see it just as a landmark/ demarcation thing that can happen anywhere in the world! It’s something beyond that, according to the Qur’anic descriptions.
It’s the place itself makes it sacred (e.g. Revelation of the Qur'an) and so is their boundary. (Sacredness by geography is possible, e.g. 2012)
Also, why people have to come for Hajj from distant/remote areas?(2227) Why they didn’t have their own makkah, alkaabah?

Another thing is that, in Hajj there is a practice of giving drink (919), which requires water, also water required for other basic needs, ablution etc. of thousands(if it’s like you said)/millions of people. Which means the place requires a source for this huge quantity of water throughout the year (Hajj /Umrah).

Wakas

peace,

Also, why people have to come for Hajj from distant/remote areas?(2227) Why they didn’t have their own makkah, alkaabah?

Again, you are not using makkah and kaabah in the way I understand them but in any case, as I said in the quote you highlighted, al hajj held at the time was at a specific locality. The believers at the messenger's time simply used the blueprint of Abraham and what he did and implemented it wherever they were (i.e. in their locality). Likewise believers now can do this wherever they are, assuming they can implement the various stipulations in place.

Wakas

The $100 USD challenge

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).

If you can find an article (written in English) that can provide a Quran-based answer that explains the above highlighted verses please share it here. If I think the attempt is reasonable you will be rewarded with $100. Or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

Can I ask the following question about what you say here,quote
" If I think the attempt is reasonable you will..."

Question- How are you going to determine that the answers are"reasonable" unless you know for sure the "reasonable" answers?

Because to me, the word "I think" implies that you may have an idea/s but you may not do the answers justice unless your idea/s are "reasonable"/unbiased and true.
But I may be wrong. Please clarify.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace GL,
Good question but the answer is quite simple and it's been available for years. I have referred to my methodology multiple times
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

If you want it even simpler, the article would have to take into account the following
Quranic grammar, Quranic cross-reference, non-contradictory, logical, practical application, self-contained explanation.

good_logic

Thank you for clarifying Wakas.
In my experience ,this sounds straightforward, quote
"Quranic grammar, Quranic cross-reference, non-contradictory, logical, practical application, self-contained explanation."

But with Qoran the majority aof the verses are notthat straightforwards.
Let me give an example
1242
وَقالَ لِلَّذى ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ ناجٍ مِنهُمَا اذكُرنى عِندَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنسىٰهُ الشَّيطٰنُ ذِكرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِى السِّجنِ بِضعَ سِنينَ
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, Satan caused him to forget Dhikra his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.

Does the word فَأَنسىٰهُ refers toJoseph or his friend the prisoner,? The Arabic grammar here is not straightforward
i.e wich one of them forgot "Dhikra Rabbihi".?
But I get your general point.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

TellMeTheTruth

Dear brother, Wakas!
2240 is not present in your article. Please share what you think about مساجد, صوامع etc. in this ayah. How all nouns are related to TIME.

Arabic
لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا

Thanks & Peace!

Wakas

peace,

It is there. It is a 3 part series of articles

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html (2240 is covered here)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Wakas

The $100 USD challenge

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

If you can find an article (written in English) that can provide a Quran-based answer that explains the above highlighted verses please share it here. If I think the attempt is reasonable you will be rewarded with $100. Or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case.

Increased to $200. Please search all the Quran based islam writers (in English) and find me an article, thanks.

Mazhar

//Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).//

What does it mean or convey to the reader?

Ajinomoto

//Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).//

==================================

Salamun Alaykum,

I know that this thread has been long ago, but I hope still valid to discuss about this interesting subject.

So let me express my understanding about "al masjidi al harami".

All words of "al masjid" in Al Quran means the land instead of "place of sujud".

All words of “al harami” in Al Quran means treaty or covenant.

To understand about the words of “al masjidi al harami”, we should know that all messengers was came from descendant of Noah, which is also descendant of Adam, and the people to whom the messengers were sent to is the descendant of the people of ark.

God saved Noah and the people of Ark to THE BLESSED LAND, and from them consecutively God sent messengers and annihilated the wicked people.

Among the messengers after Noah, God choose Moses (2039-41) and his people who night travel with him, and later was called as “israel” (247, 2122), for taking THE COVENANT from them for the purpose that had been decreed, after God had annihilated previous generations.

2843 We gave Moses the Book, after We had annihilated the earlier generations as "eye opener" for the people, as guidance and mercy that they may take heed.

That is why God made Moses for Himself (2041), and Moses is the most messenger mentioned in Al Quran. He is the only messenger who God speak directly (7144).

God delivered His commandment to “israel” that He wanted to send down a light thru “gentile prophet”. Those who follow the light that was sent down with him will be the successful ones (7156-157).

So, before “the gentile prophet” came with the light (Al Quran), God has prepared the best scenario for the world by involving multi generations.

“Israel” is the representation of the man kind for God took the covenant before sending down Al Quran, and God gave them Torah thru Moses. After them, “bani israel” who spiritual descendant of “israel”, inherit Torah and bound with the covenant that taken by “israel”, and God send to them messengers and scriptures in order for them familiar with God Revelations, just like they recognize their own children (2146).

God blessed “bani Israel” more than anyone in the world as they will be the witness for the coming of “the gentile prophet”.

Therefore, 171 is talking about Moses and not Muhammad.

People of Moses who night travel with him from “al masjidi al harami” to “al masjidi al aqsha”, means that they travel from “the blessed land” (ex the land of people of ark and Noah) to the far land, for taken the covenant.

At the time of Muhammad, the blessed land had became many towns, and the inhabitant of the towns were ordered to be the part of “al masjidi al harami”, as they were bound with the covenant (2149-150).

Unfortunately, at the time of Muhammad, many of “bani Israel” broke their covenant and they denied Muhammad and Al Quran, even they were divided into Jewish and Christian, except a few of them (3113).

Therefore, the meaning of “al masjidi al harami” is the blessed land who the inhabitant was bound with the covenant at the time of Muhammad.

“bani Israel” is the descendant of the people of Ark (173), so for me, “al masjidi al harami” in Al Quran is just a code for the blessed land (ex people of the ark and Noah), in order for us to know that the land where Muhammad lived was the same land with other messengers.

Kind Regards,

Aladin_Azra

El-mesjid-ul-Haraam is what so-called democratic societies have today as the Parliament, the Body to decide what is forbidden, ie. to bring the Law. For Muslims (submitters to Him) the Law is according to His Guidance. Since the Qur'an, it should be for humanity, as kuffaar have UN.
El-mesjid-ul-aqSaa is the Partliament in exile. Pharaoh (Akhanaten) took all the power and forbid the outsiders (ie. Hittite) to have any power in decision making.

Hajj is an annual gathering of the Parliament, and 'umraa is any out of Hajj. Local commune (qawm) has its own gathering on yewm-ul-jumu'a.

Christians tried to have el-mesjid-ul-Haraam, but it was corrupted and usurped by the Romans, what we call today the Council (ie. of Nicaea). Similarly, when Muhammed Resulullah died, fitna started and there's no el-mesjid-ul-Haraam, as it should be since Ibrahim.

Individuals also have an obligation to study the Qur'an to learn what is not known to them of things they need for life.

Wakas

peace all,

I find this interesting. Can this comparison provide clues as what is meant? I will post without much analysis

1821
And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said "Build over them a building/monument" Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who prevailed in their matter said "Surely we will take (to ourselves?)* over them a masjid."
*taking something for oneself?

2125 And when We made the house/shelter (bayt) a place of return/filling/reward for mankind and a security, and take (to yourselves) from the status of Abraham a place/time of salaa, and We made a convenant to Abraham and Ishmael that "You (both) purify My house/shelter (bayt) for those who go among/about, and stay/devote, and incline and honour/acknowledge."

https//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=21#(18211)

I think the grammar needs clarified so will post this here
http//allthearabicyouneverlearnedthefirsttimearound.com/p2/forms-vii-and-viii/
Quote
Often the meaning of Form VIII verbs is reflexive. The Form I كشف means “to disclose” something to someone else. The Form VIII refers to one’s discovering something for oneself.

Not all Form VIII verbs are reflexive in meaning. Their range of meanings is broad, so you will need to learn the meaning of each one as you come to it. Many Form VIII verbs are transitive.

A verb can be described as transitive or intransitive based on whether it requires an object to express a complete thought or not. A transitive verb is one that only makes sense if it exerts its action on an object. An intransitive verb will make sense without one.

Background
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Mazhar