Adultery
-
Salaam Huruf,
While your interpretation and reading of the verse is interesting and thought provoking---it simply does not resonate with my current reading and understanding.
Often on many issues I am in broad agreement with much of what you say and appreciate your insight but on this one for now we will have to agree to disagree.
Peace.
-
Peace Indelwyn )
God willing, I hope you have another one soon ) Mashallah, you have a big family. A 21 month old? He or she must keep you running! I wish I had it in me to have a large family. I am already feeling so overwhelmed with just one..and she does not even walk yet.
I totally agree with you. haha. If we follow their logic, then really there is no reward for us. It's all about them. I can understand where you are coming from. I also waited until marriage and only wanted to share that type of intimacy with my husband and no other. I think I would also feel suicidal if something like that happened to me. Did this happen to you? I am so glad you came through it okay. Mashallah, you seem to have a wonderful husband now. I am so glad you found someone new who is thoughtful and loves your daughter like his own. You are so blessed.
Thank you for your great posts as well! It's feels so good to have supportive sisters.
-
Peace Liha )
Yes, she gives up and then collapses on the carpet. After like 30 seconds, she's right back at it. haha. cute. Now, if only I could find my camera.
I, too have cousin (second cousin) who we lost temporarily to drug use. He's recovered from the actual addiction, but lost much of his youth in the process. His younger brother, though, is very successful and does not have any sort of rebellious streak in him. I've known both since they were babies, and remember picking them up and walking around with them. Really, I don't know what to make of it. I guess the best thing we can do as parents is to keep the doors of communication always open, and watch our children carefully.
You said this, "I think it more likely that the Quran recognizes the reality of polygamy but is also discouraging of it." I absolutely agree with you on this. I don't think it's as much as a right as it is a permission given within a very unlikely context. Though, the context itself may not be unlikely. Rather, it is the thought of a man merely marrying to provide a home and fatherly support to orphaned children that appears unlikely. I have yet to hear of a man who married again for anything other than lust. It's ridiculous how these people completely ignore the Quran, and only see what they want to see. The majority of these men prefer to marry young virgins. Still, I don't think God encourages the idea of marrying more than one, as He clearly warns of the dangers. Also, women aren't compelled to accept this lifestyle even if their husband is considering this particular method of being charitable.
There are so many clues in the Quran in which God guides us away from certain things, and tell us what is better for us. You are correct; slavery and polygamy being two specific things. Though, many a time, people will only do what they want to in the end, and then they will dare to justify their injustices with the Words of God.
Yes, I think most countries in the West would consider these marriages to be form of bigamy. There was an interesting discussion on a sectarian forum the other day. The women are mainly living in the West, and the topic of polygamy came up. The majority of the women claimed that they would never put the "no other wife" stipulation in their marriage contracts. Some men even piped up that it was in fact illegal to do so. I thought to myself, "The reason why you find the stipulation to be stupid, is because you live in Western countries where secular law protects your marriage rights, but what about your brothers and sisters who do not have the same rights? Also, what if polygamy was legalized in the West?" I couldn't believe how much of a one-track mind these women have. They were not able to think outside of the box. I'm not saying that I am in any way superior in my thinking, but wouldn't they feel the right to protect themselves given what they know goes on in their home countries?
I've also read blogs with those heart wrenching polygamy stories. What's even more sad is that these women continue to try and convince themselves that their jealousies, depression, sense of betrayal is all "Shaitan", and they must work on themselves. I am not sure whether I should feel sorry for them or feel angry. It's frustrating.
I totally agree with you in that we need some sort of legal framework that will redefine polygamy in light of the Quran, and we must create some sort of legislation that protects the rights and interests of all married women and their families.
-
If masculine poligamy is all about protecting the orphans, which is what you attribute to the Qur'an, then what about when there are no orphans, because simply there are not enough men to go around not even to leave behind any orphans, as it was the case I mentionned after the war of the Triple Alliance against Paraguay? According to you they would have been unable to have poligamy. Which obviously they did have, with church marriages or without them.
Salaam
-
Salam all
I'm completely agree with Huruf, when he says that the Qur'an neither prohibits polygamy nor endorses t - may be, there may be situations where polygamy can be a solution of certain problems (for example, the orphan issue)
Another example would be a marriage, in which one part has no sexual desire or physical reasons (paralysis, disease) sustained no physical connection. Instead to pick its satisfaction elsewhere through prostitutes or girlfriends or child abuse (I know whereof I speak) , it would be in this case, a good solution for all parties to married a second wife...i see a great wisdom from Allah in this verses ...
Salam peace -
Peace All,
The Koran doesn't prohibit or permit circumcision. So, we can make our own choice. Does the Koran permit or prohibit polygamy? Is God really going to leave a decision such as this to us , which has such far-reaching consequences - most of which are unhappiness?
How does polygamy look from the male viewpoint and from the female viewpoint?
Many people agree that the Koran doesn't actually speak of polygamy. So, why are we talking about polygamy? Is it even on the table? We are told to use our intelligence. We are told to be kind. We are told to be peaceful. We are told God has a mate for us all, our tilths. We are told men and women are equal. We are told not to commit adultery etc., etc., yet we think God is giving us the choice of polygamy? I wonder who it is benefitting by thinking like this? Certainly not the women, certainly not the children. Oh yes, the men!
Islam should be setting an example to the world, holding up God's exemplary laws. It is time people actually studied the Koran consistently to find the real answers. As chapter 96 tells us, 'read in the name of the Lord'.
-
After the Triple Alliance war against Paraguay, there were 28 women to every male, and immediately after the war those males were minor or very old men. The country would never have recovered the population had it insisted in monogamy. So the law proclaimed free llove as complete recognized and legal. Women could be with any men they cared for and men, those there were could do the same with any women.
Of course all homes had women as heads, which seems to be the case even today when there are enough men to go around and there is monogamous marriage. People find their own solutions.
The trick of putting a limit of four to the number of wives would not have done either. 24 women out of every 28 without a husband, without family without descendants... I find that apalling.
Agreed, those circumstances are not common, but we never know.
The thing is that the Qur'an gives ground rules, principles on which to base any ruling in the society. But the actual shape of those is left to people. Believers and people are told to strive, to reflect, to think out, to use reason... and above all to be equitable and not transgress the limits.
Nowehere it is said that a man has the right to have more than one woman. It may be a possibility for particular circumstances, but it is certainly NOT A RIGHT granted by the Qur'an just like that. Because in that case it is also the right of a woman to have more than one man.
Following that path of reasoning the men should also have the right to the mamalakat aymanuhum, and have as many concubines ans they wished. The Qur'an has been used to uphold that.
If there is no lack of men in society, poligamy, masculine and femine might be contemplated for cases like the one explained by Mirjamnur, it it considers it fit. But there is no reason to maladjust demography just for the sake of a presumed right of men to whatever.
In fact in some muslim countries, the male population in marriageable age overnumbers the female population noticeably. If some of them marry more than one... let them fence it out. They want poligamy, stick with poligamy and remain single.
Salaam
-
Peace Huruf,
I agree with you. The Koran says men and women are equal. Therefore, if men are allowed multi-wives, then women too are allowed multi-husbands. Seen from this angle, is it really how we want to live?
If there are not enough women/men, then perhaps we should go abroad to find a wife/husband, instead of sharing.
Dawn.
-
Salam
the best we sit at home ALONE and wait ALONE until we died... ;D the problem is solved voodooi think Monogamy is like Monotheism in the fitra of human- we have more as enough to do with one wife/husband / family (in normal circumstances) that we will not look to make us more problems, isn't so? (and yes, i know, there are men they don't like to follow this fitra-) but when we read the Quran, what we should do in our life - if i want really to follow the Quran then so or so i don't have time to married so many - all this wasted time and
then second point then we become like animals- only here to dedicate ourselves to the reproduction? drink, eat sleep - and as human work, argue, ...??
Salam giveup -
Yes, it is important to see that even if in the Qur'an, Muhammad is known to have several wives, still the Qur'an too is careful to show that his circumstance is not to be equated with anybody else's. And in the whole of Qur'an monogamy appears as the standard marriage, which again, would be pointing to the fact that even if poligamy, maculine or feminine is not forbiden, because there may be situations of force majeure, it is not to be the general rule.
There could be dispensations to be accorded judicially. or in general situations like the one described for Paraguay, make it absolutely free.
But under no circumstance it is to be regarded as a right of men. Nowhere in the Qur'an is given such a hint. The rights of men are not of higher value than the rights of women. If men do insist upon such thing as a right, then women could do also insist on the same as a right.
If it is anybody's right it is the collectivity right to protect its society, is reproduction, or its welfare. nowhere in the Qur'an is affirmed such a men's right.
Salaam
-
Greetings all,
After contemplating the verse and trying to understand the context of ayat, i personally believe that the issue of polygamy/polygyny is succinctly addresses in al Qur'an 2221.
And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.
although almushrikati/almushrikeena literally means someone who set up partners, but in the said verse the context is about marriage and has nothing to do with with the common understanding of setting up partner with god.
in essence, Q2221 is telling us (both male/female) not to marry those who already has a partner, even if she/he allures you as this call you unto the 'fire'. Perhaps those who have personally experienced polygamous life can enlighten and share with us the true meaning of 'fire'
Peace
-
Peace.
But under no circumstance it is to be regarded as a right of men. Nowhere in the Qur'an is given such a hint. The rights of men are not of higher value than the rights of women.
Agreed.
Regardless of what we think of polygamy and the meaning we derive from it upon reflection, it's important to keep in mind that we all have an equal right to feel happy and secure within our marriages without threat of coercion.
Dawn, the only thing that can bring peace to mind in relation to this topic, is that we need proper legislation that protects the rights of all. Of course, we as a community here on Free Minds, have yet to establish any sort of physical state or country. As a result, these are thoughts to bear in mind when legislation is created.
From my perspective, monogamy is the functional or the 'smart' method; it is affordable, less drama, and the only way in which I wish to be married in. I think many women feel similarly, though there are your exceptions. I think the main point here is that we are never compelled to except this lifestyle against our will. We are equal in the sight of God, and nobody's rights supersede the rights of another.
One thing I would advise all women to do is to get themselves educated, acquire work experience, and grab leadership positions whenever possible. We cannot be compelled into any of this nonsense if we empower ourselves and refuse to become victims. This is just my opinion.
-
Peace Release,
I agree with you mainly. However, I travel frequently to Saudi Arabia and the women there, no matter how much they empower themselves with education are stuck in the most dire conditions emotionally and socially. As the Saudi men tend to take several wives as a matter of course, many Saudi women are exercising one of their few rights to wait until they are thirty years old, then they no longer have to marry a Saudi. They can then marry any other Arab, whose tendency to polygamy is not as high.
Dawn.
-
Peace All,
I would have thought 3020 is a massive indication from God that he intended one man, one woman
"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with EACH OTHER, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think."
Dawn
-
Peace Dawn,
Thanks for the insight on Saudi Arabia. Why must women wait until they are thirty, what is the wisdom behind this law?
I think Saudi men get away with this because Saudi law and society allow them to without any repercussions. Women may have access to education but it's difficult for them to acquire work with equal opportunity and salary. Women are rarely ever seen in leadership roles because traditional Sunni Islam frowns upon this. It's a place where freedom of speech is limited, and there is severe punishment given for even protesting or petitioning against the clergy and/or monarch. Women's rights groups (as well as other civil rights groups) are heavily monitored and function within strict parameters.
Though, I would think a state based on both secular and quranic values would be different. Saudi Arabia isn't the ideal example of this. Far from it, I think. Women may be educated in Saudi Arabia, but they are not empowered. They are very limited in what they can actually do. They may be doctors, lawyers, teachers, and etc..but when it comes to government and legislation, they are deemed "deficient" by the traditionalists and do not have a say.
In a Quranic state, I think women would be empowered and have the right to take part in creating legislation. There is nothing in the Quran that blocks women from taking on leadership roles. Women are not deficient mentally or intellectually. The Quranic perspective of women is that of respect and equality. We could easily push for legislation that protected our rights within marriage. From a Quranic perspective, there is nothing that should prevent us from this. A true democracy would allow women to protest and campaign without the fear of fines, jail sentences, and/or any cruel and unusual punishment. Though, I don't think we would need to do any of that in this regard, as it is not in the spirit of the Quran to compel anyone to live a certain lifestyle against their will.
In Turkey, women participate in legislation and the government itself is pushing for more female imams. It's one of the few places in the world where you can find women who serve as religious authority. I am not advocating for more clergy, but I find it very interesting (and encouraging) how women are being respected as "scholars" and learned members of the community.
-
Peace All,
I would have thought 3020 is a massive indication from God that he intended one man, one woman
"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with EACH OTHER, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think."
Dawn
Peace Dawn This verse seems to me to be still ambiguous even if we consider the EACH OTHER, because it can still mean tranquility and contentment with each of your 4 spouses. because of the plural word SPOUSES.
If it was absolutel clear about monagamy it would say "He created A SPOUSE from among yourselves " -
Peace Lena,
I take your point. However, I don't think God would expect tranquility and peace to be fostered when a man has to juggle more than two wives. That basically carves up the time a man has to share with each wife. I'm afraid I cannot see how polygamy could engender peace and tranquility. We are told that there are no contradictions in the Koran. How on earth can a man looking after more than one female be tranquil and peaceful himself. And as for the gems this could breed.....
-
Salam
Peace Lena,
I take your point. However, I don't think God would expect tranquility and peace to be fostered when a man has to juggle more than two wives. That basically carves up the time a man has to share with each wife. I'm afraid I cannot see how polygamy could engender peace and tranquility. We are told that there are no contradictions in the Koran. How on earth can a man looking after more than one female be tranquil and peaceful himself. And as for the gems this could breed.....
you can not imagine it, but it may be that a polygamic Relation is for others no problem. I have read about examples who the women have wished a second wife to not be alone.
Difficult subject without end ...
Salam giveup