24:31 head covering?

Shirin

Selams all!

I know this verse was discussed already, I wanted to post in one of those old threads but I got warning which says I should consider making a new thread since that one is old. So...here I am. I need help with understanding this verse, to be more specific I need to know what is considered (an) adornment on a woman?

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

Thanks in advance.
God bless.

seekingtruth1111

Peace Shila

This interpretation sounds right

http//quransmessage.com/articles/hijaab%20FM3.htm

(1) WHAT CONSTITUTES ZEENATAHUNNA?

An understanding of the root word ?ZAY-YA-NUN? (from zeenatahunna) clearly indicates that this is a reference to make-up, beautifying oneself, adorn to an extent which can become a cause of attraction. The directive is not to display this beauty and adornment to those other than the people listed in verse 2431.

peace

Abdullah

Wakas

salaam,

(1) WHAT CONSTITUTES ZEENATAHUNNA?

An understanding of the root word ?ZAY-YA-NUN? (from zeenatahunna) clearly indicates that this is a reference to make-up, beautifying oneself, adorn to an extent which can become a cause of attraction. The directive is not to display this beauty and adornment to those other than the people listed in verse 2431.

If it was a reference to "make-up" then what of one who does not wear "make-up"? What degree of "make-up"? etc.

I recommend this
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

Shirin

Peace Shila

This interpretation sounds right

http//quransmessage.com/articles/hijaab%20FM3.htm

(1) WHAT CONSTITUTES ZEENATAHUNNA?

An understanding of the root word ?ZAY-YA-NUN? (from zeenatahunna) clearly indicates that this is a reference to make-up, beautifying oneself, adorn to an extent which can become a cause of attraction. The directive is not to display this beauty and adornment to those other than the people listed in verse 2431.

peace

Abdullah

Salams,

thanks for the link but I don't really understand the connection between adornment and make up. From my understanding, adornment is part of female body not sure what parts, though.

Mazhar

And you the Messenger pronounce for the Believing Women that they should reduce their focused visual attention upon men and that they should preserve their genitalia .

And that they should not expose-make eminent-noticeable their attraction-bosoms. The exception to notice is for that which has naturally become evident because of it raised above the surface.

However, they should draw barrier-distance their surfaced bosoms to obscure by putting their unsown sheets upon their chests.
And they should not expose-make noticeable their attraction-bosoms by removing extra veil/sheet except before their husbands;
or before their fathers, or fathers of their husbands; or their sons or sons from other wives of their husbands;
or their brothers, or sons of their brothers, or sons of their sisters;
or their own-family women ; or maid servants under their control and obligation;
or male attendants who are "the other than of holders of genitalia desiring for marriage-castrated" considered in state of amongst the Men;
or the children, those who have not yet become aware-explicitly cognizant regarding the "private sexual parts/aspects" of the women.
Moreover, they should not make apparent-strike with their feet so that a man may know what they conceal from their attraction-bosoms.
And you people are directed turn repenting towards Allah the Exalted collectively, O you the true Believers.
The objective being that you people might attain and reap the fruit of perpetual success.

Make up and all other adornments are purposely made or worn. There is no point of their being naturally surfaced above ground level. That is not their Zeenat. It is what they use to make their selves rather holders of some Zeenat, a source of attraction-beautification. Their natural Zeenat--a source of attraction for other sex is their bosoms which are naturally surfaced above chest.

Shirin

salaam,

If it was a reference to "make-up" then what of one who does not wear "make-up"? What degree of "make-up"? etc.

I recommend this
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

Salaam wakas,

I read this article before, it's a good one but it doesn't answer my question. The translation of the 2431 in the article uses "beauty" instead of "adornment" and I need to know what is considered "beauty" or "adornment". If those adornments are woman's breast, thighs, and such stuff then I don't really understand how am I allowed to show off those in presence of my father or father in law or my brother?Isn't that supposed to be visible to my husband only? If so, then those parts don't fit in that definition.

huruf

Salaam wakas,

I read this article before, it's a good one but it doesn't answer my question. The translation of the 2431 in the article uses "beauty" instead of "adornment" and I need to know what is considered "beauty" or "adornment". If those adornments are woman's breast, thighs, and such stuff then I don't really understand how am I allowed to show off those in presence of my father or father in law or my brother?Isn't that supposed to be visible to my husband only? If so, then those parts don't fit in that definition.

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.

That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.

Salaam

mirjamnur

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.

That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.

Salaam

i love it bravo

Wakas

w/salaam,

I read this article before, it's a good one but it doesn't answer my question. The translation of the 2431 in the article uses "beauty" instead of "adornment" and I need to know what is considered "beauty" or "adornment".

From http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

From the above verse it can be deduced that for the purposes of women's dress code two types of beauty are described

What is apparent (this can be revealed in public)
What is hidden (this type must be covered in public, but could be revealed by a striking of feet or walk/stride which is revealing)

Such a striking of feet or walk could only reveal a limited number of parts of the body, e.g. the private parts, buttocks, thighs, breasts, hips, thus any part not revealed by such an action should not be considered part of hidden beauty and therefore part of apparent beauty. Of course, this means such things as face, hair, hands, feet etc would not clearly fall into the category of beauty that is meant to be hidden. Furthermore, the verse clearly brackets what beauty it is referring to by saying "...the child who has not yet understood the composition of women" implying it is relating to what is specific to a woman (i.e. what is different between man and woman) nothing else.
This understanding would also fit with The Quran's instruction on the body parts that are to be cleansed during daily ablution (hands, arms, face, head and feet), see 56, 443.

?

hawk99

Peace Shila,

I don't know why that verse is so hard to understand, but it keeps popping up over and over again!

I'm a man , you're a woman you know what should be kept from my prying eyes and it's not
make-up!

So let's reverse this discussion for once and let the ladies tell us what constitutes modesty
or immodesty. I got one hand over my eyes!

Peace O0

StopS

The question says it all adornment. Men and women have slightly different brains and - as with all animals - the differences are most remarkable when it comes to reproduction. In some animals, the male is fitted with more adornment, in humans it is the female. That is why females love being spoilt and treated like a princess. They also like, albeit not every woman, competition and compliments. Telling a woman, who is biologically programmed to flirt and ensure the best possible genes for her offspring to hide away is a bit of a conflict and a contradiction.

Also, civilisation has moved on and I can calmly sit next to a woman on a nudist beach and chat with her without immediately raping her )

There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof.

Wakas

StopS

Telling a woman, who is biologically programmed to flirt and ensure the best possible genes for her offspring to hide away is a bit of a conflict and a contradiction.

Also, civilisation has moved on and I can calmly sit next to a woman on a nudist beach and chat with her without immediately raping her )

Are you implying on the one hand it is a conflict/contradiction for a command to go against biological programming, and on the other, "civilisation has moved on" when a man goes against his biological programming to pass on his seed?

There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof.

Really? Please list some of those theories.

Shirin

Salaam.

Thank you all for your replies. )

@Huruf, I understand what you are saying, basically it's about modesty and simplicity and I totally agree.

@Wakas, I understood the concepts of hidden and apparent, but what bugs me is that, according to this interpretation, we are allowed to show our hidden beauty to our family, excluding private parts of course. Maybe I'm having troubles with understanding English, forgive me if that is a case and I'm being annoying.

unknownuser

Salaam all,

Wakas has pretty much summed things up perfectly in his article. Read it thoroughly. Huruf opened my eyes to a very sensible understanding of this verse, re-read what she has written. Especially what she said in this thread, in fact, just go through the whole thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604269.0

And this link for reading a booklet I wrote regarding the whole dress code issue

removed

And don't forget to pay attention to Mazhar's epic translations. Just mix it all up with logic/reason and common sense and Classical Arabic dictionaries' knowledge and you should be able understand it.

youssef4342

Peace peace
here's a hint ONLY women are spoken of to have this ornaments.
if men grew out their hair, does it become an ornament?

and to the beginning posters, God cites to us of wearing jewelry 1614... and also describes clothes which are ornamental 726.
Traditionalists want to go as far as the one-eyed "Cyclops hijab". but that is highly impractical and inconceivable, to say the least. I don't really believe in Hijab as a religious obligation. God commanded to cover the chest/bosom area, lengthen garnments (wear long cloths), and don't walk in such a revealing way...

for short; Dress modest. Not extremist

hawk99

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.
That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.
Salaam

Excellent!

Posted by youssef4342
here's a hint ONLY women are spoken of to have this ornaments.
if men grew out their hair, does it become an ornament?
I agree

Ornaments could mean what makes a woman different from men.

Peace O0

Karimah

I was just curious if anyone else has read this article and if they have any thoughts on this particular argument for covering

http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/dress%20code%20of%20Muslim%20women.htm

mirjamnur

Salam
in this matter you can discuss without end, because the definition of Zina is from human to human from Society to Society different. An arabic man will say to you that hair is sure adornement, an Europaeen may say not at all....
So Allah leave it open for everyone to decide... and that is great
Salam

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

Just to clarify lengthen your skirt does not mean to wear a long skirt bit means to wear a longer skirt than you may have been used to. It's just telling us to be modest.

On the matter of the breasts, I have often wondered whether adornments/jewels could be nipples? Controversial, I know.

StopS

Are you implying on the one hand it is a conflict/contradiction for a command to go against biological programming, and on the other, "civilisation has moved on" when a man goes against his biological programming to pass on his seed?

No, I am stating that the command of covering up for a woman is a contradiction to nature.
Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated. Hence my example of the nudist beach. On the other hand, a cleric in KSA reasoned that women should not drive because if the car were to fail she could be molested by men and raped while waiting for a tow-truck. Muslims who attempted to rape 2 of our female employees were taken to the cops by our security guards. They were released because the ladies were not wearing abayas and thus were taunting the men and then the women were kicked out of UAE. Tough laws for 2012.

Really? Please list some of those theories.

Have you never heard any? I am surprised.

The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable.
Then we have the leaning towards the Jewish heritage and the inherent polygyny for example.
Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
I've collected more, but I would need to look for them. I reckon it's sufficient to answer your question for now.