24:31 head covering?

[Wakas]

StopS,

It is interesting how you can confidently state what is and what is not part of nature. Humans have to cover up to some degree, otherwise they will either die of cold or receive far too much sun exposure.

And just in case you are unfamiliar with the views of forum members here, the vast majority give little credence to Traditional sources or rulings by religious "officials" or "courts".

And lastly, you said "There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof."

I dont see how what you stated provides evidence for "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further". Perhaps you can clarify by saying something like "This shows this because of XYZ" and actually present something specific.

You said "The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable."

matriarchal
(matriarchy) A social system in which the mother is head of household, having authority over men and children; A system of government by females
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matriarchy

Matriarchy (also gynecocracy) refers to a gynecocentric form of society, in which the leading role is taken by the women and especially by the mothers of a community.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchal

Your making no sense. Are you implying the Bible demonstrates a "matriarchal structure" and Quran moves away from this to a more male-dominated structure?

[Hizbullah]

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.

That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.

Salaam

This is the best explanation on 2431

[huruf]

Thanks, Hizbullah,

I underline that what the aya says is not that things should not be seen but that things should not exhibited, not to make a show. That is why it is said "illa ma Thahara". That is, we do not have to hide beauty, but we must make a display of it. Beauty is beauty and seeing it is not offensive nor degrading, it is to thank God for it, that He has made life full of beauty, but to parade it or to take pride in it as if it was ours or a weapon and not a gift of God, is not ma Thahara, but exploitation of beauty. Women must now exploit beauty for gain (material or inmaterial) just like men must not exploit strength for gain. But neither has to hide either one; both must use it with humility, because all strength and all beauty is from God, and we will have to answer for what we have done with it.

Salaam

[mirjamnur]

Salam stopS

No, I am stating that the command of covering up for a woman is a contradiction to nature.

You are the creator so that you know what is contradiction to nature?

Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated.
from where you get this conclusion?

Hence my example of the nudist beach.
your ecample of the nudist beach works not everywhere...
On the other hand, a cleric in KSA reasoned that women should not drive because if the car were to fail she could be molested by men and raped while waiting for a tow-truck. Muslims who attempted to rape 2 of our female employees were taken to the cops by our security guards. They were released because the ladies were not wearing abayas and thus were taunting the men and then the women were kicked out of UAE. Tough laws for 2012.
yes this is very bad - KSA is one from the most bad place in the word in my eyes-

Have you never heard any? I am surprised.

The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable.
Then we have the leaning towards the Jewish heritage and the inherent polygyny for example.
Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
from which source ?
Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
malesh this it's for me slandering the prophet
To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
this is the usually explanation , but this is the truth?
I've collected more, but I would need to look for them. I reckon it's sufficient to answer your question for now.

peace peace

[StopS]

StopS,

It is interesting how you can confidently state what is and what is not part of nature. Humans have to cover up to some degree, otherwise they will either die of cold or receive far too much sun exposure.

If you learn biology you also learn about procreation rituals and behavioural patterns over time based on genes.

No, not really. Like I said, I was not covered at a nudist beach. And not everything is black and white. You can swim naked or sit in the shade. ~50% of our planet can sustain naked humans.

And just in case you are unfamiliar with the views of forum members here, the vast majority give little credence to Traditional sources or rulings by religious "officials" or "courts".

Thank you for reminding me.

And lastly, you said "There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof."

I dont see how what you stated provides evidence for "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further". Perhaps you can clarify by saying something like "This shows this because of XYZ" and actually present something specific.

You said "The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable."

Your making no sense. Are you implying the Bible demonstrates a "matriarchal structure" and Quran moves away from this to a more male-dominated structure?

Oh, I am sorry, I thought I was quite clear. No problem, I'll explain. And this is not evidence, but an explanation.

The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic. The OT hammers out rule after rule regarding women and the NT even has Jesus treating his mother badly. (Just in case OT=Old Testament=Jewish Bible, NT=New Testament, Christian gospels) So the Koran carries on along this vein and addresses the situation where numerous tribes on the Arabian peninsula were ruled by women. Muhammad himself had a woman, Khadija, as boss, who was substantially older than him. The theory therefore is that the matriarchy was to be curbed and Islam used the sentences in the Koran to do that and establish the man as the head of a tribe, clan or family.

Does that clarify it?

[Wakas]

The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic. The OT hammers out rule after rule regarding women and the NT even has Jesus treating his mother badly. (Just in case OT=Old Testament=Jewish Bible, NT=New Testament, Christian gospels) So the Koran carries on along this vein and addresses the situation where numerous tribes on the Arabian peninsula were ruled by women. Muhammad himself had a woman, Khadija, as boss, who was substantially older than him. The theory therefore is that the matriarchy was to be curbed and Islam used the sentences in the Koran to do that and establish the man as the head of a tribe, clan or family.

Thanks for the explanation, but no, that does not clarify it.

Firstly, its news to me that the Arabian peninsula had numerous tribes ruled by women, although admittedly I have not studied this area. Care to cite some evidence?

And you said "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further", then later said "The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic." so if you take them as "highly" and claim Quran takes it a step further, then I can only assume you regard Quran as extremely misogynistic?

If so, please cite the top 5 most extremely misogynistic examples/rules you can find in Quran. Thanks. Feel free to start another thread.

[StopS]

Salam stopSpeace peace

This is a bit of a weird format, but I shall try and address the points as best I can.

You are the creator so that you know what is contradiction to nature?

I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of a creator, so I stick to science, as in biology in this case. Here I learnt that mating is the strongest drive in animals. It also dictates what we look like and why there are differences in looks between male and female used in courting if there are 2 genders. Some animal species don't have 2 genders and thus look identical.

Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated.
from where you get this conclusion?

Rape outside of primates is very rare. It's biology. There is a hypothesis that considers rape to be a genetically advantageous behavioral adaptation, but I don't buy that.
Looking at civilisation, the sex drive of early humanoids who fought, captured and raped has given way to communication. That is the preferred and accepted norm today.

Hence my example of the nudist beach.
your ecample of the nudist beach works not everywhere...

Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?

Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
from which source ?

Several. Do you want one or 15? There are stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
People's view of the naked body in that era was different than ours. Just look at the Olympic Games at around that time where combatants rocked up naked. Islam did not develop in a void. People had habits and cultural differences. In some clans women were the boss, had legal rights and could own property and had defined inheritance rights all the way to genealogy being traced maternally.

Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
malesh this it's for me slandering the prophet

Really? The Koran slanders Muhammad, it's own messenger? laugh If you don't believe me, look at 3350, 3353, etc...

To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
this is the usually explanation , but this is the truth?

I don't know. That's why I said there are several possible explanations why women are never told to cover themselves excepting hands and face in the Koran. Then there's the fact that Muslim women today wear different garments in different regions, demonstrating a human and cultural source for the social expectation.

[StopS]

Thanks for the explanation, but no, that does not clarify it.

Firstly, its news to me that the Arabian peninsula had numerous tribes ruled by women, although admittedly I have not studied this area. Care to cite some evidence?

And you said "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further", then later said "The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic." so if you take them as "highly" and claim Quran takes it a step further, then I can only assume you regard Quran as extremely misogynistic?

If so, please cite the top 5 most extremely misogynistic examples/rules you can find in Quran. Thanks. Feel free to start another thread.

Hahaha, it seems I clarified it, but you are not satisfied with what I said.

No, come on, this is getting ridiculous. All I need to do is enter "matriarchy arabia" into Google and get 1000s of hits, all dealing with this. Do I really need to copy/paste them here?

"regard Quran as extremely misogynistic" Yes, indeed. And it surprises me that you even question this. Do I really need to find the Koran passages? Don't you know what status a female has in the Koran when compared to a man? How she is considered when a witness in court? How inheritance is defined? How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse? How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there? Come on, be realistic. Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male? It's right through the book. Look at reality today! And now look at society 1000 years ago. It was that era and it was acceptable then. Do you really want to collect all 50 or 60 sentences here?

[Wakas]

I only want the quality evidence, not some website anyone can write on. Some books would be good.

And if they are your examples of extreme misogyny, then allow me to clarify

How she is considered when a witness in court?
Misrepresentation. I assume you are alluding to the sole case of financial transaction when a witness is chosen. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm

How inheritance is defined?
IF no will is made (wherein someone can leave 100% to females if they wish), then in some situations the male gets more. The man is also made responsible for things the female is not, making it more balanced. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-less-share-inheritance-males.htm

How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.

How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there?
Conveniently vague. References please.

Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.

Your usual tactics may work on others, or other forums, but unlikely to work when it comes to Quran alone. ;D

[someoneoutthere]

Comments in green 3

How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.

StopS is probably thinking about the numerous hadith that say a woman cannot deny her husband sex (i.e angels cursing her until morning)

Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.

I reckon you've given a very good answer to a different question.

[mirjamnur]

Salam StopS

This is a bit of a weird format, but I shall try and address the points as best I can.

I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of a creator, so I stick to science, as in biology in this case. Here I learnt that mating is the strongest drive in animals. It also dictates what we look like and why there are differences in looks between male and female used in courting if there are 2 genders. Some animal species don't have 2 genders and thus look identical.

we don't speak now about the evolution theorie- but in the Quran we found the term Allah creates (chalak)
Kh-Lam-Qaf = To measure or proportion a thing, to form or make according to proper measure, bring into existence according to a certain measure, originate or produce after a pattern or model which one has devised, bring into existence from a state of non-existence (create out of nothing), to fabricate or forge a speech or saying, to make a thing equitable or even, make a thing smooth, to be probable or likely to happen (or likely to be or happen, or to have happened or been), act towards someone according to that person's nature, wear out a thing and make it old, to be fit/ competent/ suitable/ proper, to be complete or perfect in respect of make or proportion, have an innate/natural disposition/temperament/quality. (from http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Rape outside of primates is very rare. It's biology. There is a hypothesis that considers rape to be a genetically advantageous behavioral adaptation, but I don't buy that.
Looking at civilisation, the sex drive of early humanoids who fought, captured and raped has given way to communication. That is the preferred and accepted norm today.
what is norm today we should accept... Allah make a clear distincstion between animals and Adam/bani adam

Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?
like in Egypt example. or in Saudi Arabia ;D (in Saudi the men like to rape women even they are covered from head to feet... o

Several. Do you want one or 15? There are stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
secondary sources from old history of Arabia- i don't believe it at all... -
People's view of the naked body in that era was different than ours. Just look at the Olympic Games at around that time where combatants rocked up naked. Islam did not develop in a void. People had habits and cultural differences. In some clans women were the boss, had legal rights and could own property and had defined inheritance rights all the way to genealogy being traced maternally.
yes o.k but what has this to do with the Quran

Really? The Koran slanders Muhammad, it's own messenger? laugh If you don't believe me, look at 3350, 3353, etc...
no not Quran slanders Muhammad, the reader who makes conclusions and interpretation from his own brain...Allah never says Muhammad was jealous

I don't know. That's why I said there are several possible explanations why women are never told to cover themselves excepting hands and face in the Koran. Then there's the fact that Muslim women today wear different garments in different regions, demonstrating a human and cultural source for the social expectation.

for this i'm always carefully to make quick conclusions .

Salams peace

[StopS]

I only want the quality evidence, not some website anyone can write on. Some books would be good.

And if they are your examples of extreme misogyny, then allow me to clarify

How she is considered when a witness in court?
Misrepresentation. I assume you are alluding to the sole case of financial transaction when a witness is chosen. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm

How inheritance is defined?
IF no will is made (wherein someone can leave 100% to females if they wish), then in some situations the male gets more. The man is also made responsible for things the female is not, making it more balanced. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-less-share-inheritance-males.htm

Are you serious? Really? You want "quality evidence" from me - yet when YOU want to bring up something a really funny internet page, a page "anyone can write on" as evidence?

Isn't that what you call having double standards? Please! Stating that the man has wider responsibilities is laughable, stupid and wrong. It's misogynistic too. And what is more the articles you present as evidence throw up red herrings left, right and centre, yet never get away from the claim that a man is superior.

And you are wrong again as there are tribes where the woman gives birth and breast feeds and does the hunting while the males look after the village.

Do you really require books to learn about Makeda, The Queen of Sheba or Cleopatra?
But you want books? Here are books

The Origins of Islam, D.M. Murdock (...prior to the encroachment of Islam, it was a matriarchal culture for over 1,000 years "The Annals of Ashurbanipal said Arabia was governed by queens for as long as anyone could remember.... "Mohammed's legends clearly gave him a matriarchal family background. His parents' marriage was matrilocal. His mother remained with her own family and received her husband as an occasional visitor....)

The End of Men And the Rise of Women, Hanna Rosin (women rulers made a terrible mess of things or they imposed regimes of such terror (who would like to be ruled by the Amazons, after all?) that there was no choice but to overthrow them. And that, according to the logic of the stories, is why we now have patriarchy.)

A Study of Islamic Herstory Or, How Did We Ever Get into This Mess? Azizah Al-Hibri (before the advent of Islam, the matriarchal societies of Arabia had been destroyed trough a transfer of military technology)

Women and Social Change in the Muslim World, Alya Baffoun (the sexual freedoms women enjoyed during pre-Islamic times were similar to those Mernissi found in Arabia, and that a double standard was absent. With Islam this conditions disappeared and the sexual oppression of women began)

Women in Mystical Islam, Anne Marie Schimmel (contributions women have made to the development of the mystical tradition in Islam, as poets and teachers (many revered male Sufis had been their pupils) who helped shape the learned tradition of mystical, thought and practice)

The Feminine Universe, Alice Lucy Trent (In all myth throughout the world, the original Creator is feminine. It is only with the coming of a masculine-dominated (patriarchal) social system that She is replaced by a male god) Robert Graves (evidence of his hypothesis that a shift in power from a matriarchy controlling society to a patriarchy happen in the ancient past.)

I will stop here as there are simply too many.

How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.

How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there?
Conveniently vague. References please.

Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.

I am asking questions, not quoting scripture. It's not "conveniently vague", but a very specific question. Are you paying attention at all? Are you trying at all?
Does this make any sense? "How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child?" Why is that important in a family? Is that the only criteria? It is also misogynistic as you don't seem to care the least for the feelings of the women. It does not even occur to you. You only worry about how the father can identify his child.

Your usual tactics may work on others, or other forums, but unlikely to work when it comes to Quran alone. ;D

My "usual tactics". Again why bother if all you can up with is some ominous allegations. Poor! Oh and now you judge me using something vague on other forums...

What did I say?
On what forum?
Come on, give me quality evidence you crave so much for yourself.

[StopS]

we don't speak now about the evolution theorie- but in the Quran we found the term Allah creates (chalak)

Yes, but is there evidence for this?
If humans are created, and perfect at that, why would 50% require to be hidden away, when nature dictates the opposite?

what is norm today we should accept... Allah make a clear distincstion between animals and Adam/bani adam

And? Rape is going down all the time. 1000 years ago rape was customary during a war. Today it is punished.

Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?
like in Egypt example. or in Saudi Arabia ;D (in Saudi the men like to rape women even they are covered from head to feet... o

I don't know of any legal nudist beaches in KSA. I am talking about countries where they are normal.

stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
secondary sources from old history of Arabia- i don't believe it at all... -\

Then why are we talking at all if you can at any time decide what you declare wrong and what you accept?

yes o.k but what has this to do with the Quran

It shows the cultural background of that era. Things were different. Monotheism was still new to people. Their habits and rituals were very different.

no not Quran slanders Muhammad, the reader who makes conclusions and interpretation from his own brain...Allah never says Muhammad was jealous

You can't interpret anything?
The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these intervals. It is interpretation.
The Koran does not say women cover yourselves except hands and faces. It is interpretation.
The Koran says men can marry 2 and 3 and 4 women, but this is interpreted as 2 or 3 or 4.
The Koran does not say that apostates or adulterers should per se be stoned, yet some Muslims do so. So you MUST interpret to get what a Muslims considers to be the true meaning.
So do YOU decide when something is taken literal and when something is interpreted?

[mirjamnur]

Salam StopS

Yes, but is there evidence for this?
If humans are created, and perfect at that, why would 50% require to be hidden away, when nature dictates the opposite?

As i understand it to create, as the word Chalak implies, points to a God, a power that brought our world with all its evolutionary laws to be there. The natural choice in the evolution belongs to the law which God has ordained for the universe.
The man rises from these regularities by his intelligence and his understanding. Due to his intelligence, it was possible to him to gain medical, scientific knowledge to can partially circumvent the laws of nature.

And? Rape is going down all the time. 1000 years ago rape was customary during a war. Today it is punished.

I don't know of any legal nudist beaches in KSA. I am talking about countries where they are normal.

I do not blame all the people in a pot. If something was also socially acceptable, i.e not mean that it is morally proper.
For example, rape is clearly against all morality and decency. if thousands of people do it well, it makes it acceptable?
I mean, who's determined today, what is normal? the society in which you live? just because society says, rape and Nudist beaches are o.k, then it is morally acceptable and 'normal?

Then why are we talking at all if you can at any time decide what you declare wrong and what you accept?
actually we should not talk about it, because it is clearly stated in the Quran. ;D ;D The problem is that not all people believe in the Quran or in God. So we set a different standard, and discuss about this.

It shows the cultural background of that era. Things were different. Monotheism was still new to people. Their habits and rituals were very different.
history is always a problem, because we rely on old oral or written traditions which can well be falsified

You can't interpret anything?
The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these intervals. It is interpretation.
yes correct. i'ts only interpretation
The Koran does not say women cover yourselves except hands and faces. It is interpretation.
yes, again only interpretation
The Koran says men can marry 2 and 3 and 4 women, but this is interpreted as 2 or 3 or 4.
yes , only interpretation
The Koran does not say that apostates or adulterers should per se be stoned, yet some Muslims do so. So you MUST interpret to get what a Muslims considers to be the true meaning.
no we don't MUST INTERPRET to become false laws- the Quran say we don't must stone adulteres - on contrary, God says the life is very expensive- from where people take the right to punish people or to finisch a human life???
So do YOU decide when something is taken literal and when something is interpreted?
no clear i don't decide i try to read the Quran and to NOT INTERPRET between the lines- in fact i try to read the Quran and forget all my (false) knowledge about the history or or - i believe , with a clear mind and a clear heart we can see the wisdom in the Quran - and forget all the violent interpretations from sheiks and mullas-

i don't know, if i could explain to you what i mean..Salam peace

[Wakas]

Are you serious? Really? You want "quality evidence" from me - yet when YOU want to bring up something a really funny internet page, a page "anyone can write on" as evidence?

Isn't that what you call having double standards? Please! Stating that the man has wider responsibilities is laughable, stupid and wrong. It's misogynistic too. And what is more the articles you present as evidence throw up red herrings left, right and centre, yet never get away from the claim that a man is superior.

The links I posted are primarily built on Quran verses. So if you are claiming Quran is X, posting evidence from Quran seems relevant. Red herrings you say..... specifics please.

And you are wrong again as there are tribes where the woman gives birth and breast feeds and does the hunting while the males look after the village.

I know, but we were discussing Arabia.

Do you really require books to learn about Makeda, The Queen of Sheba or Cleopatra?
But you want books? Here are books

The Origins of Islam, D.M. Murdock (...prior to the encroachment of Islam, it was a matriarchal culture for over 1,000 years "The Annals of Ashurbanipal said Arabia was governed by queens for as long as anyone could remember.... "Mohammed's legends clearly gave him a matriarchal family background. His parents' marriage was matrilocal. His mother remained with her own family and received her husband as an occasional visitor....)

The End of Men And the Rise of Women, Hanna Rosin (women rulers made a terrible mess of things or they imposed regimes of such terror (who would like to be ruled by the Amazons, after all?) that there was no choice but to overthrow them. And that, according to the logic of the stories, is why we now have patriarchy.)

A Study of Islamic Herstory Or, How Did We Ever Get into This Mess? Azizah Al-Hibri (before the advent of Islam, the matriarchal societies of Arabia had been destroyed trough a transfer of military technology)

Women and Social Change in the Muslim World, Alya Baffoun (the sexual freedoms women enjoyed during pre-Islamic times were similar to those Mernissi found in Arabia, and that a double standard was absent. With Islam this conditions disappeared and the sexual oppression of women began)

Women in Mystical Islam, Anne Marie Schimmel (contributions women have made to the development of the mystical tradition in Islam, as poets and teachers (many revered male Sufis had been their pupils) who helped shape the learned tradition of mystical, thought and practice)

The Feminine Universe, Alice Lucy Trent (In all myth throughout the world, the original Creator is feminine. It is only with the coming of a masculine-dominated (patriarchal) social system that She is replaced by a male god) Robert Graves (evidence of his hypothesis that a shift in power from a matriarchy controlling society to a patriarchy happen in the ancient past.)

I will stop here as there are simply too many.

How many of these are actual books, and not some online article(s)? Are they written with actual evidence backing them up, because all I read above were quotes, e.g. do they reference scripts/inscriptions from Arabia which discuss this etc? I'll make it easy for you, present your 5 strongest evidence for your matriarchal Arabia - obviously, by "strongest" I'd expect them to come with evidence.

By your usual tactics, I am referring to your alleged preference of logic and the scientific method when scrutinising Quran, yet display very little yourself in your own views/statements. Simple.

[StopS]

Salam StopS
i don't know, if i could explain to you what i mean..Salam peace

I THINK I understand.

You are saying that your standard is determined by what you perceive as the standard for your life, which is the Koran. You try and take the knowledge from the book and apply it to your life. You understand that the Koran does not clearly say very much at all, yet decide that what is important for you you see clearly.

Ok, it's a way of life and if you are happy, then I am happy for you.

[StopS]

The links I posted are primarily built on Quran verses. So if you are claiming Quran is X, posting evidence from Quran seems relevant. Red herrings you say..... specifics please.

I know, but we were discussing Arabia.

How many of these are actual books, and not some online article(s)? Are they written with actual evidence backing them up, because all I read above were quotes, e.g. do they reference scripts/inscriptions from Arabia which discuss this etc? I'll make it easy for you, present your 5 strongest evidence for your matriarchal Arabia - obviously, by "strongest" I'd expect them to come with evidence.

By your usual tactics, I am referring to your alleged preference of logic and the scientific method when scrutinising Quran, yet display very little yourself in your own views/statements. Simple.

No, I will not do anything any longer. All you are doing is moving the goal posts and I am tired of your games. You are not interested in a discussion but a notch in your Koran. Tough luck.

[warner]

Peace

This topic has moved from the original subject, but I wanted to post this even though late.

Some very interesting definitions of zeenathuhunna such as make up etc.

From 2431, how can make up be exposed when a woman part or move her legs wide ( sorry, the verse does not say feet, like in the hadiths on the hanging bells on womens feet) ?

Please see the link below for a previous discussion on this and this particular matter was settled I guess.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11995.msg87737#msg87737