how sure are you?
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Salaam,
Welcome to the forum handshake
- nope never from cover to cover, not in Arabic and also not in a other language. But if you collect all the parts I've read then I have read it ofcourse multiple times
- nope I hate reading them, even when I was a sunni. Totally not inspiring for me even the "good" hadiths.
- very little
Salaam,
BenderSalaam Bender,
I don't think people will understand what you want to say... try rephrasing it
May Allah bless you,
mmKhan -
Salaam,
Welcome to the forum handshake
- nope never from cover to cover, not in Arabic and also not in a other language. But if you collect all the parts I've read then I have read it ofcourse multiple times
- nope I hate reading them, even when I was a sunni. Totally not inspiring for me even the "good" hadiths.
- very little
Salaam,
Bender- you could read Quran Corpus as a start. it has 7 different translation for every verse.
- let's try to understand hadith more.
3.well, the knowledge would be useful. I mean it's better to know right?
peace.
link to Quran Corpus website
http//corpus.quran.com/ -
Shalom Aleikhem,
- have you read the Quran in it's entirety?
Yes.
- how about the hadith? have you read most of the narrations that is deemed authentic?
Yes, but I have to confess that at times I had to skip things here and there. By "authentic" I am talking about Bukhari,Muslim and Abu Dawood. Bukhari's compilations are the ones that I studied more than the others. If by reading them all, you mean the "Sahih sittah", the 6 authentic collections, then I have to say that I have not gone through all of them. It was redundant, given the nature of their collections and Qur'an's opinion on such matters. To put it simply, do you read every book on Islam written by anyone ? I would not expect you to, and there is a very good reason for that. First of all, I need a reason to resort to reading them. When the Qur'an never asked me to, why would I waste my time with every tom/dick/harry's opinions and guessworks.
- what do you know about the science of haddith? as for me the knowledge I have is very little so I'm not rushing things.
Good to know that you aren't rushing things without knowing things. )
From what I have studied about the "Science of Hadith", I will argue that it sounds like an oxymoron. You just can not have a "science" of "unwarranted random public survey based on huge claims with virtually no evidence". Google is your friend, use it wisely. Or may be find a traditional muslims who can help you study about the "Science" of hadith. I do not wish to write much about why I find it ridiculous. But here are some of my posts from the past when I had a dialogue with a traditional muslim on this forum
Link Science of Hadith ( go through the thread to read everything)
I feel this subject is of huge importance... first time i was here on freeminds i was filled with hate and ager towards the quraniyoon because they called themselves muslims when they have nothing to do with us real muslims.... and i used a lot of arguments which i can see now was stupid of me to use but i am very young and sometimes express myself in a inappropriate way.... but i have grown up and decided that we should, instead of making personal attacks on each other, begin with the essens of the issue which is hadith.. your problem is i believe in hadith and my problem is you dont believe in the hadith.... i've been reading many reasons for why quraniyooon reject hadith now i feel its my turn to explain why i believe in hadith... and inshallah that would open the eyes of sincere quraniyoon..
the key is SCIENCE OF HADITH.. e.g 100 people telling the same story, can that be false? even the police use the hadith science by asking as much people as possible and if they all give the same reply they consider the postulate as being a fact. Thats the same with hadith... 100 people who knew something about prophet sws all said the same thing thus it is foolish to not believe in it.. please check out this site http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/
Shalom Aleikhem,
This is the first post of you that I actually like and respect. This is the attitude you should take. Be nice, and give reason for what you believe and ask for reasons for other's beliefs.
Now... coming to your reasoning. If you ever visit india, just go around asking people if Durga is Goddess. I am pretty sure you will find nearly billion people testifying that they bear witness that Durga is a Goddess. Will you accept that hadith then ? If not, then why ? I would reject hadiths for similar reasons. Lots of people confirming a narration only shows that this is the dominant view , not necessarily the correct view.
I hope you understand why I disagreed. I tried to give example to show that I dont simply disagree just because its hadith. But for good reasons.
May God guide you to His straight path )
thx dude but I keep in my mind my age is only 14 and when i first time was on freeminds i was 13... so didnt know how to reply in proper manner..... alhamdulillah i have grown up a bit....
you cannot compare these two things which each other. Sure you can ask 100 people with the same religion about religious matters and you would get the same answer..........however isnad is not about religious opinions... its about what a particular person said or did... for instance.... if you go to india and ask them what skin color mr. kaala has... and if 100 out of 100 say his skin color is black. And if you ask some arabs in Lebanon(my country. I am lebanese) and ask them what skin color mr. Aswad has and 100 out of 100 reply his skin color is black. Would you then believe his skin color was white or black?
Shalom aleikhem,
ohh... you are so young. Anyways, I apologize if I previously dealt with you like I would deal with a fully grown adult.
Coming to your latest reasoning. How about you visit France and Germany, and in both places 100/100 people testify that Christ was crucified and died on the cross. Will you accept it ? I am 100% certain, that at least "you" will not accept it. For the exact same reason, I cannot accept that kind of data collection methodology.
If collecting data like that would truly be accepted in your heart, then you wouldnt mind the "New Testament" books. Their WRITTEN records are much closer to Jesus than lets say Mr. Bukhary's recorded works. I am sure you will not allow St. Paul or Mark/Matthew/Luke/John to give "accurate" testimony about the life of Christ. In the same way, it is absurd to give anyone such as Bukhari the right to tell you "accurately" about the prophet who died 2 centuries before Bukhari.
I could refer you to read my writings or some other similar minded people's writings. However, I highly doubt if you will read neutrally. I understand your reasoning for not giving time to read our papers. So let me channel you to sources you can trust. Do you know Ahmed Deedat ? Zakir Naik ? Khaled Yasin ? If you do, then watch their refuting christianity/Bible videos. After you finish watching some, be fair and honest and simply apply the same arguments to hadiths. You will get your answer God willing.
yes but there is a difference dude coz people in germany or france didnt witnessess the death of jesus while the narattors were sahaba karam who lived with the prophet....
2. the new testament doesnt got the science of hadith as we have.Yes i love ahmed deedat and zakir naik i have watched all their videos... if you want i can give you some.... especially zakir naik is my favorite although i dont understand his english (he has very funny english accent)
BUT the people who gave us sunnah was the same people who gave us quran so how can u believe in the first and not in the second?
Shalom Aleikhem,
Qur'an 2111
........
.......Say "Bring forth your proof if you are truthful."So now, we have funneled down our differences. All you have to do, is give me the record of hadiths from "Sahaba"s. ) Bring forth your document, we shall then discuss more.
dude, isn't the isnad science enough for you ?
During the lifetime of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and after his death, his Companions (Sahabah) used to refer to him directly, when quoting his sayings. The Successors (Tabi`un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) through the Companions while others would omit the intermediate authority - such a hadith was later known as Mursal. It was found that the missing link between the Successor and the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) might be one person, i.e. a Companion, or two people, the extra person being an older Successor who heard the hadith from the Companion. This is an example of how the need for the verification of each isnad arose; Imam Malik (d. 179) said, "The first one to utilise the isnad was Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri" (d. 124).3.
You mean the "Chain of Narrators" ? Then I have 2 questions.
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Who authorized this "chain of narrator" based system to be followed for data collection ?
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How does this method work and how is it reliable ?
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Ulama
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Because its like that you get infos as well in the court... the witnessess are presented to you and they tell you what they saw and heard... thats the same , its e.g 100 people telling what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears . Would you really ignore what all these people who lived with the prophet sws had to say about what they saw and knew
Shalom Aleikhem,
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Thank you for the honest answer. It was the "ulema". And your "ulema" may not be same as my "ulema". Our "ulema" may not be same as Shia "ulema". From "obey the messenger", it has now become "obey your personal ulema". I am just saying that to show you that the definition of "ulema" is not absolute, it depends on "your" perception.
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See my friend, here we run into some trouble. You make it sound as if, Mr. Bukhari met 100 sahaba's who all testified the same thing. However, that is not the case. Sure, 100 people can go into a court and testify infront of the jury that they all saw you stealing an apple, but that is not the same thing as a person claiming that his dead father told him that his dead father's uncle told his dead father that the dead uncle heard from his dead teacher that when the dead teacher was young he met a dead tax collector who heard it from a dead sahaba who said that he heard the prophet say "XYZ".
This will be immediately thrown out of the court. Case closed. Because none of them are witnesses. They all simply heard the same story. And, a story being popular has nothing to do with it being the correct one.
If you still do not believe me, speak to a lawyer. Ask the lawyer the difference between you "testifying as an eye witness" and you "claiming that Mr. A (dead for 10 years) told you, and Mr. A(dead) heard from Mr. B (dead) , Mr. B(dead) heard from Mr. C (dead), Mr. C(dead) heard from Mr. D(dead), Mr. D(dead) heard from a sahaba (dead) , Sahaba(dead) heard from prophet (dead).
It should be easy for anyone to see why this method is unreliable. Anyways, just because you saw me murder someone, does not mean the court will accept your "claim". But in anycase, the bigger loop hole is the chain of narrator as I showed in the above paragragh where to back up your claim, you have to bring to life many dead people who are not testifying, but you claiming that they would have testified.
Oh my God, I just realized that it was not a short dialogue. If you follow the link, you will find that we actually discussed a lot of things there. However, if you have the time, you can go through the rest of the exchange between me and Sunnah-Hero to understand better why I find the "science" of hadith to be one of the most absurd things on this planet.
By the way, I had to vote for 100%, because 99.999999999% was not option. I would have chosen 99.99999% out of intellectual honesty. But now I am forced to choose 100, because that is closer to the reality.
Peace
----------- Student of Allah -
no. I'm not expecting anyone to read just any books by just anyone. but I do hope we could further study the hadiths books that is practised by millions of muslims today. you know, to get a better understanding. it's better to know right?
hey thanks for the link ) I'll be sure to check it out later.
you've answered all my queries thanks. I think you probably know more about hadiths than I do. sooner or later I'll change that.. sooner or later >D ehehehe.. ahahahahaha.AHAHAhAHAHAHAHa!! just trying to lighten the atmosphereSalam.
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- you could read Quran Corpus as a start. it has 7 different translation for every verse.
- let's try to understand hadith more.
3.well, the knowledge would be useful. I mean it's better to know right?peace.
link to Quran Corpus website
http//corpus.quran.com/Salaam,
- Thanks for pointing out Quran Corpus I am familair with it
- I hope you excluded me
- I am not sure about that, sometimes it's better not to know certain "knowledge".
Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
- Thanks for pointing out Quran Corpus ) I am familair with it )
- I hope you excluded me
- I am not sure about that, sometimes it's better not to know certain "knowledge".
Salaam,
Bender- no problem )
2.nope you are not excluded. everyone should learn
3.let's try to understand as much as we can. mwahahahahaha.
peace sun
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- no problem )
2.nope you are not excluded. everyone should learn
3.let's try to understand as much as we can. mwahahahahaha.
peace sun
Salaam,
- we agree on point 1 handshake lets see if we can agree on point 2 and 3
- O Allah save me pr I promised Allah to never go back to that anymore &
- if yu can change it in let's try to understand as much USEFULL as we can. mwahahahahaha. then we have an handshake
Salaam,
Bender - no problem )
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Salaaman,
Hey! This is cheating... I am not killing you, I am just giving you an electro
May Allah bless you,
mmKhanSalaam,
Did you see your face &
You looked like this > you could kill someone only with that look of you, the elektro was only an extra sadistic element yesSalaam and may Allah bless you,
Bender -
70 %
Hadith can be used for historrical literatures, not used for implementating Islam
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Some of us, including me, follow the teachings of Rashad khalifa, who originally revived the Quran alone movement.
Mathematical Miracle
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.htmlMessenger of the Covenant
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/messenger_of_covenant.html