Am I still a Muslim?

Seek_Peace

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me. P

I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?
If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe. But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures. As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

I don't believe in angels.
This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.
I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it) http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html
The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators
"The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 242

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 244

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test. In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.

Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this

"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 660

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens

"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 2265

"Allah certainly holds together the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 3541

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 189-1813. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.
I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.
In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.
I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.
Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.
I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...
Are you trying to just find happiness or are you earnestly trying to learn and find the truth? Don't hold on to something just because it's been in your life, I think it's good to be willing to change some beliefs if you find ones that are more true. For example, I was raised being told that if you do harm to others, you take some of their bad deeds and they take your good. And if someone does harm to you, you get some of their good deeds and they take your bad. In reading the Qur'an, I found there was no basis on this. I also found that there was no basis for the belief of Prophet Jesus returning, on praying a certain way, on wearing the hijab, I found the true meaning of prayer and fasting, among other many things. It took many readings and a lot of reflection. I could have been inclined to hold on to my prior beliefs. But I willingly confronted biases and unfounded thoughts I had, and my whole universe changed. I felt so different. To fear change in favour of something familiar is not good.

It may sound like I'm urging you to abandon Islam. And, in truth, I intend to encourage to you embrace asking questions and finding answers by reading the Qur'an, within yourself, in the world around you. Anyways, I've gone on for far too long - lol. I wish you the best, brother.

seekingtruth

Salam All

How do you propose we eradicate crimes? Unrealistic goal. Again doesnt address justice. basically what you are saying is people will get away.

I conceeded in my comment that we can not always find justice. What i didn't mention was justice is subjective, and what constitutes as justice differs with whoever one asks. If one does not try to live in a society that would want to eradicate crimes being commited then why set laws at all. Even if we do not achieve complete crimeless world atleast the goal is their to atleast minimise it to live in a society worth living in.

Would not a thought of an afterlife punishment, just let people say "hey you know what, people get raped, tortured etc, we shouldn't try our best to get rid of it from society because they will get there just desserts in hell".

So atheist on one hand find hell appalling but the other hand find forgiveness to be appalling as well. A believer who genuinely feels remorseful is not thinking about getting off. Genuine remorse imples he feels bad for what he had done to those he had hurt which often is liberating to the victims. His remorse is not for himself and his suffering but for the suffering he had caused others.

The issue not what someone finds appalling but the notion of perfect justice coinciding with perfect mercy. Both of these can not be achieved and are in direct contradiction. Is a genuinely remorseful man showered with god mercy and not taste hell at all. or is he thrown in hell for a set time no matter if he sincerely repented and must go through the torment even for a short time and then go to heaven. Is it possible according to the quran for a someone to be forgiven his crimes short of shirk and not go to hell even for a short time.

Read my post on the other thread about evidence. Let's suppose the truth is earth is spherical. Just because people didn't have evidence for years of this fact, means the earth is not spherical? You can have multiple beliefs with each claiming they are right with proofs, arguments that the earth is flat, frisbee shaped, square, contradicting each other but people's beliefs doesnt change the one truth that the earth is spherical. The truth is not based on people's beliefs. Just because a man cannot prove that the earth is spherical does that mean that the earth is not?

I agree people believing the earth bieng flat and have justification for doing so, does not mean the earth is flat. Some of the justification for the earth bieng flat in ancient times was that people would go to a high spot and look around in a circular motion, the distance would always be the same to the horizon and as you can see it seemed the earth would appear disk shaped. Anyone can reproduce and demonstate this; so how does one avoid this problem. You see the when it comes to multiple beliefs that have "proofs", Over the ages we have realised how one can distinguish between contradictory claims. It is called falsifiability. If someone provides evidence; we have learnt that accepting evidence/claims that can actually be falsified speeds up the process of sifting through claims. For instance Alot of religious folk do not believe in evolution. the feature of the evolution claim is that it can be falsified and the proponents of the theory have listed the criteria that would disprove evolution should the evidence pop up that matches the falsifying criteria. none as of yet have disproved evolution; so is it fair to say it is most likely true. regardless of what people think is true.

Look through many of the claims one makes and see how many of these claims have an attachment of falsifiability. if a claim cannot be demonstated false in someway it becomes pointless speculation and conjecture, (this doesn't meaning proving a negative btw because that is unfalsifiable). there is no problem with holding beliefs like this but dont go around asserting the truth of the views with out the evidence.

The quran makes claims so people are in their right to assess them, some of these claims are unfalsifiable and then can not be demonstated if they are true or false, so they become meaningless assertions e.g heaven and hell existing.

I agree that truth is not based on peoples beliefs, however what people perceive as truth is based on beliefs. we are all at some point of guilty of this, but some actually acknowledge this and minimise holding beliefs that cannot be demostrated to be true.

I don't think you quite get it. Just because in your mind you dont have the proof that you need or whatever evidence you are looking for you can't find for existence of God, doesn't mean that God doesn't exists. You can have multiple beliefs of God like multiple theories about the shape of earth but that doesn't change the Truth

I did not say that God did not exist and you still haven't realised that atheist positions is NOT God does not exist, But it is the rejection of theist claims that have not met their burden of proof. They look similar but are fundamentally different. Here's why as briefly as i can.

A theist claims God exists, we bieng in the default position say ok whats you justification/proof.
If the theist does not meet the burden of proof/evidence or it is contradictory, then we rightly dismiss thier notion that their God exists.
This does not mean god does not exist but whatever your definition of this God was/is does not exist.
This skepticism can be used for any belief.

You may quite rightly say that the God i believe is unknowable, not able to be comprehended and ultimately unfalsifiable. Let me ask you to reflect on how does one then distinguish between this God and one that does not exist.

You don't have to have a reason to believe that the earth is spherical. You can believe in the truth or falsehood till you come to see the truth. Just the same, you can have no reason not to believe in the existence of God. You can hold onto false beliefs till you see the truth.

I agree you dont have to have valid evidence based reasons to believe anything, hence there bieng bizzare beliefs all around the world and through human existence.

Indeed you can come to see the truth ,does that also include for you that God and afterlife not existing because outside of scripture everyone will not come to the same conclusion of them existing. No i disagree that i can have no reason not to believe in God, the very fact that the theist claims have not been demonstrated is a valid reason not to believe. the final part i disagree with also, this should be discouraged holding false beliefs because they can be outright dangerous. Women have suffered long enough and still suffer because of false beliefs and the list goes on. So it should be encouraged to hold beliefs that again can be demostrated to be true and accurate.

You also skipped over the part where i talked about the difference between something bieng possible and bieng probable. something that is possible isn't always probable, something probable is always possible. When one can demonstate that God is probable which starts with atleast some proof (which can be falsified), however small; then one can hold that maybe in the future it can be further proved to be true.

Why do you think that as an atheist who doesn't believe in God and in the afterlife should then deserve to be in heaven? According to you hell and heaven don't exist. So your question doesn't make sense unless you believe that hell exists but having issues with who goes to heaven and hell?

I'll try to explain why it matters what people think about hell, even if i dont think it exists.
I find it very offensive and upsetting when someone says that i will be tortured forever and/or i deserve it. heres why, if someone for instance said that i deserved currently to be shipped off to bottom of the ocean facility that does not exist and be tortured horrifically for the rest of my life simply for not agreeing with them. Then im perfectly in my right to resent peoples attitude towards what they think will happen to me after i die which is a similar sentiment. you may say well you get racial abuse and etc in real life and move on, however bieng tortured forever volutarily for simply not believing claims or not being part of a favorable group is infinitely more offensive sentiment that can not be compared with any insult that can be expressed in our lifetime.

Also are you implying that Thoughts, doubts and not bieng convinced are crimes worthy of punishment. giveup
if not then why do i deserve hell. it really is quite simple.

Now you are mixing things with Jesus. Ok- either God had a son with a human mother or not. It is the truth or the lie. If it is the truth that god did not have a son then, I chose to believe in the truth. I am not going to hell for believing in the truth. I have been told by Christians that I won't go to heaven till I accept Jesus and will be kept in limbo till I did. I don't argue with them, questioning and having problems with their beliefs. I cannot choose to go to limbo when limbo doesn't exist. Others can claim whatever but that doesn't make it true. Members of flat eath society claim that the earth is flat but does it make it flat. If i claim the earth is spherical and if is the truth then i am right in my claims.

I was just bringing an example of conflicting views. and judging from your reply it seem like you have confirmed what i suspected, you hold beliefs until they can be disproven. I highlighted in previous post as to why this is a nonsensical position because you just end up with endless possibility of beliefs and they shape your actions.

As an atheist according to you there's no hell or heaven. So why are arguing with theists? Having problems with who goes to hell and heaven? According to you, there is no hell and so why do you have a problem with theist beliefs as according to you theist is believing in something that doesn't exist. According to Atheits, we are all delusional. why are you worried about delusional beliefs of going to hell? as according to you, Hell doesnt exist and you are going nowhere. You don't believe that life hereafter exists but what you are saying that if it does, then you want to be rewarded questioning the moral grounds of theist who doesn't think you deserve heaven. Does this even make any sense? For someone claiming to be rational and well reasoned, sure defies logic to me here.

Please see above ive given example earlier. Also id like to add that skeptics want to hold true beliefs, i do not want be slaves of ignorance as that creates observable problems in societies. This is not defying logic at all because false beliefs create problems that wouldnt be there if they didnt hold them e.g sunni stoning of adulterers. Your belief in the quranic God shapes how you see the world, would one not want to know if this view is actually true and justified.

Thanks and I'd rather be gullible than arrogant, egotistical, deaf, dumb and blind.

seems that you are the one bieng arrogant and egotistical by stating that people are dumb, deaf and blind becuase they don't agree with you because they have valid reason to not agree with your assertions.

Atleast you clarified that you don't want to hold beliefs that are actually true but what you think are true and make you feel good.
i apologise if the sentence comes of offensive; there no lighter way of saying it.

Prophet held the belief that the earth was spherical. Should he have held onto the belief that earth is not because he couldn't actually prove it to be true. There are still people who don't believe earth is spherical as they dismiss pictures as fakes. You can show all the evidence but they will not be convinced and believe discarding your proofs till he has himself gone to space and seen earth to be spherical.

Im glad you mentioned this. The earth bieng round was suspected during the greek era. they observed that at the horizon the ships sank like when someone disappears over the hill. so there was justification for holding the belief.
Actually the Prophet would have had to demonstrate what he was saying is true the quran expresses as much, so therefore we examine these claims.

Like i said before about evidence and falsifiability, that really makes it alot easier to drop claims as nonsense and outright absurd. therefore one is in there right to hold beliefs that may later be proven false.

Questions and doubts lead us to truth. the problem isn't people believing the earth is flat its denial of evidence to the contrary or no evidence at all. this can be expanded to the veiw of God because one believes that God definetly exist with no evidence then they are going reject evidence which suggests there version of god is non existent.

The reason some people still believe the earth to be flat because they have polluted their mind with unfalsifiable possibilities and absurd notions of demanding proof of non existance. Ofcourse they are going to be ignorant of the truth.

No, I am not open to the idea of no afterlife just as I am not open to the idea that earth is not spherical. If the truth is God exist, there is afterlife - it sure doesnt make any sense for me to deny what is real. Just because you don't have evidence doesn't mean afterlife doesn't exists.

Basically you are expressing pascals wager and betting your chips with the quran. you can google endless articles about the problems with pascals wager. Though one can see the problems straight away with out bieng told what they are.

All i can do is promote critical thinking, reason and logic. State the importance of evidence and claims that can be falsified in some empirical way. Distance ourselves from subjectivity when truth claims are presented and examine them objectively.

The discussion is on the verge of going circular because though you have not stated it explicitly; your ultimate reliance is that you have faith that you are right. So it would be meaningless to suggest critical thinking to people who jump straight to faith.

sorry for the long read, this is not an attack on your beliefs but just an observation.

Peace peace

StopS

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans.

You seem so serene and unwavering, so I hope you don't mind my asking you some questions as you have made me curious.

I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

Do you think a loving couple should not have sex unless they are married? What I am referring to is the experimentation phase that young people go through when finding out in life as well as partners what is important for them.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people.

Yes, this is sad - but then, what can you do if students walk out of a biology lecture when it comes to evolution and dogmatic belief trumps scientific facts? You seem quite versatile. Are you in a Muslim majority country?

I don't believe in angels.
This is curious. Why not?

Do you really believe angels and other beings exist? I mean outside of our imagination in the real world? Made from light of what frequency or wavelength?
Our range of what we can see of the light spectrum is very limited, so humans have built all sorts of sensors to extend our capabilities - yet to my knowledge no angel has ever been realistically picked up. So what makes you believe angels exist anyway?

I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress.

While I would not cite the Daily Mail as a source, especially not when it refers to brain damaged patients here, I understand the point. What do you think is the benefit of prayer over other ways of mental relaxation?
In its 5000 year history, prayer has never shown any effect - other than brain stimulation. I don't experience stress, so I'm curious what other say about it and how they combat it.

But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

Outside of Iran, Pakistan and KSA? "Many nations". I don't know any. Do you have examples?
Most countries have recently granted women equal rights, so the approach of "especially by women" should not really exist in 2012. Can you qualify this?

Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
Yes. I do believe it happened.

Do you have a reason why you believe this if there is no physical evidence for this?

the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things.

The Koran mentions sperm (not semen), an ovum, the process of fertilisation and the womb? Where?
I hope 2312-14 are not your source.

humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us

No, Sir, in my experience there is no indication whatsoever that anything described in the Koran precedes modern science.

Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things.

You believe this in spite of black holes or even asteroids destroying planets, a meteor wiping out dinosaurs here on Earth, the Andromeda galaxy on a collision course with us and our sun eating up Earth in a few billion years?

This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Do you knowingly ignore diseases, poisons, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hail, radiation, droughts, tornadoes, epidemics, lightning, floods, avalanches, fires, asteroids, etc. or you believe this in spite of all evidence to the contrary?

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen.

When do you believe the Koran literally and when does it get too much and you need to resort to the miracle claim?
Like the splitting of the moon? Literal? Miracle? Future event?
541 The Hour has come near, and the moon has split .

I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
He is Merciful and He is also Just.

Don't you think this is a logical contradiction?
Just = adequate punishment
Merciful = less than adequate punishment

Humans were given free will.

So there is no omniscience?

The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills.

Sorry, but there are still some open points.
Why do you think were the revelations not sent to some tribes, who have no word for god or any reference to a god in their culture?
If there are humans who will not listen, why test them? Is god omniscient?
If humans are created, why do they require testing? Is god not omniscient?
If god creates and wills anyway, why the test?
And most important, why, if god creates and wills, are almost all humans punished for eternity?

Seek_Peace

I don't mind questions at all. haha Thank you for saying so, I enjoy serenity so I like it when others seem to think of me as being serene.

Do you think a loving couple should not have sex unless they are married? What I am referring to is the experimentation phase that young people go through when finding out in life as well as partners what is important for them.
I believe that the body should be treated with respect and to give one's body to another in that way is a show of great intimacy. Just love is not a sufficient prerequisite for sex, in my view. In my opinion, such a moment should remain only between a married couple. That is because marriage is the highest commitment one can make to another. Also, considering that pregnancy may result from sex, it just adds to the importance of the parents having established what they hope may be a lifelong commitment.

Yes, this is sad - but then, what can you do if students walk out of a biology lecture when it comes to evolution and dogmatic belief trumps scientific facts? You seem quite versatile. Are you in a Muslim majority country?
Versatile? How so? No, I live in a Western country with there is quite a bit of diversity in faiths and ethnicities.
The evolution of humans is a theory, not fact. Whether or not humans are descended from now extinct hominids, I cannot say. I do not see evolution and Islam as being incompatible. I do not see science as contracting beliefs that come from Islam. If people walk out of a lecture because they don't agree with what is being taught, I don't really mind. It is their business whether or not they want to listen to something but to attack someone because they have an opposing view or to insult them for it is both disrespectful and offensive. I've been in biology lectures with a large number of Muslims and when the topic of evolution came up, and in which I am sure there were other theists, and I didn't see a single person get up and leave. Evolution is taught is many Muslim countries and science foundations in about a dozen Muslim countries have agreed with the theory of evolution. But regardless of whether or not Muslims or other theists agree or disagree with evolution, I do not see that as justifying insulting people's beliefs or views.

Do you really believe angels and other beings exist? I mean outside of our imagination in the real world? Made from light of what frequency or wavelength?
Our range of what we can see of the light spectrum is very limited, so humans have built all sorts of sensors to extend our capabilities - yet to my knowledge no angel has ever been realistically picked up. So what makes you believe angels exist anyway?
We are not able to sense God with our five senses or with sensors, yet so many still believe in Him. I believe in God. My belief in a Being that I cannot sense comes along with an acceptance that there exists things and beings that we are unable to sense or create tools for sensing them. I believe that is because God willed it to be so, as He has power over all things. So I believe in angels because I believe in God.

I never found difficulty in believing in them so I never struggled with the question of how I could believe in them. Because I will give a short explanation of the story of how I came to believe that they existed firmly. When I wanted to explore my beliefs, reasons behind them, whether or not I was religious or Muslim, I decided to dissociate myself from any label (ie. "Muslim", etc). After questioning, research, and deep reflection I came to identify my belief that there is One God, Islam as a true religion and the Qur'an as the Word of God. As such, I accept His Word entirely and He has mentioned angels in the Qur'an. Therefore, due to my belief in God, due to my acceptance of the Qu'ran as His Word, I accept that there exists angels, among other things.

While I would not cite the Daily Mail as a source, especially not when it refers to brain damaged patients here, I understand the point. What do you think is the benefit of prayer over other ways of mental relaxation?
In its 5000 year history, prayer has never shown any effect - other than brain stimulation. I don't experience stress, so I'm curious what other say about it and how they combat it.
I don't usually use it as a source either but I wasn't really focusing on the source rather than the relevance of the article. But I understand what you mean.

Brain stimulation is not an insignificant occurrence. Depending on the part of the brain stimulated, it means that there may be thinking functions and traits that are being promoted. My speculation is that the effects of prayer on a martial relationship according to various studies, stated below, likely arose due to prayer's effects on the brain.
"Couple prayer has been found to decrease negativity, contempt, and hostility, as well as emotional reactivity toward one?s partner".
Another study "found that religious practices such as prayer helped Catholic couples to manage their anger during marital conflict".
And yet another "found that prayer facilitates couple empathy, increased selfchange focus, and encouraged couple responsibility for reconciliation and problem solving".
Source for this information http//www.public.iastate.edu/~ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Religiosity%20and%20marriage.pdf

The importance of prayer according to the Qur'an is clear from how much it is mentioned. Verse 317 mentions those who may be forgiven and granted entry into Paradise, if God wills, and they include those who often pray for God's forgiveness, among other things. We also pray to worship God, to praise Him, to give thanks, to remember Him, to ask for guidance, to ask for protection from the torment of Hellfire, to be granted entry into Paradise, among other things.

Outside of Iran, Pakistan and KSA? "Many nations". I don't know any. Do you have examples?
Most countries have recently granted women equal rights, so the approach of "especially by women" should not really exist in 2012. Can you qualify this?
Not all countries recognize the right of women in certain cases. For example, in Indonesia, the law states that adultery by married persons is punishable by death. Lethal stonings of individuals claimed to be adulterers occur also in present-day Somalia, Iraq, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, UAE, and Yemen. In many of these cases, most of the "adulterers" were women. Usually, insufficient evidence is held against them. And in some cases, the women have even been rape victims. In these countries, women rights are not realized to the same degree that you seem to suggest they exist. The fact that the year is 2012 is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, women are still oppressed in parts of the world. Those who carry out these stonings often claim to follow Sharia Law. But if the verses regarding adultery in the Qur'an were adopted into laws in these countries or by religious groups in these countries, it would provide an alternative punishment that requires four witnesses and provides a punishment for accusers who do not produce witnesses, thereby diminishing the number of prosecuted individuals. If you want further information on these cases, you can Google each country's name and "stoning".

Do you have a reason why you believe this if there is no physical evidence for this?
The Koran mentions sperm (not semen), an ovum, the process of fertilisation and the womb? Where?
I hope 2312-14 are not your source.
Thank you for the correction. The correct word was sperm.

Why is that your hope? In addition to those verses, there is also 7537-39, 396, and 5345-46. Other verses regarding the nature and formation of existing objects or entities. They can be read here.

No, Sir, in my experience there is no indication whatsoever that anything described in the Koran precedes modern science.
I think you mean "miss".
The idea that sperm contains a small baby that simply just grows in the womb was the common belief even into the 1700s. Whereas, as the verses in the link I provided above, there is this verse

"Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" 2313-14

This verse reveals that the formation of a human being in the womb does not consist simply of a miniature baby simply growing in size but rather includes a change in form. So this does precede the understanding of the formation of fetuses in the womb in science.

There is also the verse stating the expansion of the universe (5147) which wasn't discovered by scientists until the 1900s.

This link provides more information http//www.cometoislam.com/IslamandScience.htm

You believe this in spite of black holes or even asteroids destroying planets, a meteor wiping out dinosaurs here on Earth, the Andromeda galaxy on a collision course with us and our sun eating up Earth in a few billion years?
I believe this due to everything that truly exists. Even what is chaotic in the universe has an order and purpose to it.

Do you knowingly ignore diseases, poisons, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hail, radiation, droughts, tornadoes, epidemics, lightning, floods, avalanches, fires, asteroids, etc. or you believe this in spite of all evidence to the contrary?
I don't ignore any of that. Humans are vulnerable and susceptible to disease or may possible experience a disaster or accident. Everything is fated to happen. However, that does not mean that God does not care nor that He does not exist. This life is a test and we may experience hardships. If we strive hard in this life and if God so wills to forgive us on Judgment Day, then we may enter Paradise and experience no affliction, harm, or illness. However, there are various ways that we experience God's Mercy in this life, even if we do experience hardships.

When do you believe the Koran literally and when does it get too much and you need to resort to the miracle claim?
Like the splitting of the moon? Literal? Miracle? Future event?
541 The Hour has come near, and the moon has split .
I believe in it completely. If God's Word states that the moon has split or wil split, then I believe Him. It's never gotten to be "too much". Why would it? And I don't "resort" to "the miracle claim". Miracles and anything that exists or occurs in nature is by God's will, so I don't see why saying it is a miracle or not changes the perception of it.

Don't you think this is a logical contradiction?
Just = adequate punishment
Merciful = less than adequate punishment
No, I don't. I do not see justice and mercy as being incompatible. Mercy is the "compassionate treatment of or attitude towards an offender, adversary, etc., who is in one's power or care; clemency; pity". I did not find any definition of mercy or translation of Raheem (The Merciful) that stated it as meaning "less than adequate punishment". Those who have been or will be punished, if God wills, suffer it due to their own deeds such as those who disbelieve (26-27). So I do not find any contradiction in justice and mercy.

So there is no omniscience?
Having free will does not mean that God is not All-Knowing (astagfurallah). Indeed, God is All-Knowing, infinite in Wisdom, so I believe there is Wisdom in His willing to create humans as beings with free will.

Why do you think were the revelations not sent to some tribes, who have no word for god or any reference to a god in their culture?
According to the Qur'an, there was a warner or prophet sent to every people in the past (1047, 137, 3524). Some people chose not to believe or over time, the following generations may have chosen to move away from monotheism. Over time, this may have led to the eventual disuse of any word referring to One God or may have even be repurposed. These people will either be exposed to the idea or concept of One God, a Holy Being and Creator, one way or another regardless, even if it may arise out of their own contemplations, as it seemed to have been the case of Prophet Abraham (675-679).

If there are humans who will not listen, why test them? Is god omniscient? If humans are created, why do they require testing? Is god not omniscient? If god creates and wills anyway, why the test? And most important, why, if god creates and wills, are almost all humans punished for eternity?
God is indeed All-Knowing. He knows all that we have done, are doing, and will do. Those who will be punished if God wills, like I mentioned previously, have brought misfortune upon themselves. God never wrongs a people, people only wrong themselves so those who are going to Hell, if God wills, have done major wrongs and will suffer for it. The test is due to God's Mercy when Adam and Eve erred. They would have been sentenced to living on earth in misery if it were not for But would you rather God immediately punish people before they erred for eternity, if He willed? Or that everyone knowing that they have a time to do what they will before they will be judged? In my opinion, to be given a time and a Day of Judgment when we will all see what we have done is just and for our benefit.

StopS