Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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Abounding on the morphology of "nisaa'".
Could some of the well versed in that part make a list or exposition of the morphological possibilities of the word according to each of the three possible roots from which it might be derived? Also of the any other factor that might be of interest.
Thanks and salaam
I reiterate this request.
I mainly refer to nisaa' as coming from three different roots
hamza-n-s
n-s-hamza
or
n-s-wAs stated in previous messages, I find that the first root listed seems more likely than the other two, but would be nice to have a detailed statement of the possibilities of derivation of the word with their pros and cons, from the morphological point of view.
Salaam
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On multiple occasions, Damon says
What I DO KNOW for a 100% FACT is that Taaba is referring to Al-Yatamaa.
Wakas, I don't think, I know that Taaba is referring to An-Nisaa' in 4/3.
The issue of Taaba and WHO it is referring to. I made myself clear that it is referring to An-Nisaa'.
I am stating it again for all to see. The word Taaba in 4/3 is referring to An-Nisaa'......
Evidence # 1 established.
But now says...
The word Taaba ( ) can be acted out by another 3rd person party not mentioned (such as The Quranic Government or whoever is in charge of overseeing the "Nikah" operation) OR by An-Nisaa'.
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Salaam Noon, all,
To allow others to insert Damon's understanding of "nisa" into Quran more easily, to see what happens, the following is an excerpt from Concordance of Quran by Hanna E Kassis (note OCR, i.e. machine read, and traditional/common translation).
Insert nisa = oblivious/forgotten/weaker ones
249 (46) slaughtering your sons, and sparing your women
- 2187 (183) permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast,. is.to go in to your wives
2222 (222) go apart from women during the monthly course
-.2223. (223) your women are a tillage for you
2226 (226) for those who forswear their women a wait of four months
2231 (231) when you divorce women, and they have reached their term
2232 (232) when you divorce women, and they have reached their term
2235 (235) there is no fault in -you touching the proposal to women you offer
2236 (237) if you divorce women while as yet you have not touched them
314 (12) - women, children, heaped-up heaps of gold
342 (37) He has chosen thee above all women
361 (54) our wives and your (wives)
361 (54) our (wives) and your wives - 41 (1) from the pair of them scattered abroad many men and women
43 (3) marry such women. as seem good to you, two, three, four
44 (3) . give the women their dowries as a gift spontaneous
47 . to the women a share of what.parents and kinsmen leave.
411 (12) 'if they be women above two, then forthem two-thirds
415 (19) such of your women as commit indecency-
419 (23) it is not lawful for'you to inherit women against their will
422 (26) do not marry women that your fathers married
423 (27) your suckling sisters, your wives' mothers
423 (27) being born of your wives you have been in to
424 and wedded women, save what your right hands own - 432 (36) to the women a share from what they have earned
434 men are the managers of the affairs of women"
443 (46) or you have touched women, and you can find no water
475 (77) for the men, women, and children 'who, being abased, say
498 (100) except the men, women, and children who, being abased
4127 (126) they will ask thee for a pronouncement concerning women
4127 (126) to you in the Book concerning the orphan women
4129 you will not be able to be equitable between your wives
4176 (175) the male shall receive the portion of two females
56 (9) or you have touched women, and you can find no water
781 (79) see, you approach men lustfully instead of women "
7127 (124) we shall slaughter their sons and spare their women
7141 (137) . slaying your sons, ,and sparing your women
146 (6) slaughtering your sons, and sparing your womeri
2431 (31) say to the believing women, that they cast down their eyes
2431 (31) or their sisters' sons,-or-their women
2460 (59) such women as are past child-bearing and have no hope of marriage
2755 (56) what, do you approach men lustfully instead of women?
284 (3) slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women
3330 (30) Wives of the Prophet, whosoever among you commits a flagrant indecency
3332 (32) Wives of the Prophet, you are-not as other (women)
3332 (32) (Wives) of the Prophet you are not asother women
3352 (52) thereafter Women are not lawful to thee
3355 (55) their women, and what their right hands own
3359 (59) say to thy (wives) and daughters'and the'believing women
4025 (26) slay the sons of those who believe with him, and spare their women
4825 (25) if it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers
4911 (11) neither let women scoff at (women) who may be better than themselves
4911 (11) neither let (women) scoff at women who may be better than themselves
582 (2) those of you who say, regarding their wives
583 (4) and those who say, regarding their wives
651 (1) When you divorce women, divorce them when they have reached their period
654 (4) as for your women who have despaired of further menstruating
NISWAH n.f. (pl.; see nisa', above)-women
*1230 (30) certain women that were in the city said
1250 (50) what of the women who cut their hands?Or look up here for detail http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nsw
You will no doubt see many many potential problems that need resolving.
- 2187 (183) permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast,. is.to go in to your wives
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Brother Wakas, and Noon,
I wish to draw your attention to an information given in Qur'aan, that is relevant to the scene now obtaining on this thread.
It is that you cannot make a deaf person listen when he has turned his back towards you.
Bob asked on the thread
What is the evidence for Nisa being women?
I replied
Millions of living Arabic speaking population.
But you read out billions of pages written in Arabic by pure Arabs which say that Nisa means and refers only to Women and Wives in possessive phrases; swith on the Arabic channels where native Arabs are talking and calling Nisa pointing women; to a deaf person not looking at you, he will not accept.
So humble advice, just relax and forget. I wish people benefit from your time saved from such deaf situations.
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Damon Bro, they will not lisen to you.
For 2222, following is the answer that I gave to some one.
, man I must admit you are good. This is a very shrewd observation. In 2222, word "Haiz" the first letter is , which is substituted here for in the written text. Hence, this word's root is ha-Ya-Dad and not Ha-Ya-Dad. The fact of consonant substitution is discussed in Lexicon but not well discussed in the Grammar books. When one gets stuck, this rule is usually the savior.
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Salaam Brother Badar,
I know certain people here are stuck in there N2I ways of thinking. My efforts in this thread are not for their benefit. It's for the benefit of the honest and sincere people who are willing to question the religious status quo and exercise logic and basic common sense.
Part of the problem is these people rush to rejection because they are assuming that all of the verses mentioning Nisaa are speaking of women and that they all have some sort of feminine context. I think the simplest thing to do (which is what I am trying to do here) is look at a couple of ayaat with Nisaa as the subject and see how it DOES NOT and CANNOT mean women. 4/3, 3/14 and 24/31 are just three such verses. Once We Ascertain That Nisaa Does Not Mean Women we are then forced to re-examine and reinterpret every verse that mentions this word. We are also forced to re-examine and re-interpret every word that is included in those same verses. It has become all too apparent that some people are strictly averse to doing any of this. I can only feel sorry for them. They were all born with brains but forsake using them. Honesty and the willingness to question things can carry us a long way.
No worries brother, you are doing very hard work in correcting the N2I nonsense that has been heaped on top of The Quran. You and I and our Quranic circles are planting the seeds right now. Due to dishonesty and stupidity it is only logical that some weeds will be present in the garden that you and I will eventually grow for humanity.
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Quranic understanding was lost when first translation was written. Since then what Muslim are following is the translation of the Quranic message; all of them with out realizing this fact at all. This includes a vast majority of so to called Quranists, as well. It is not just an issue of few words or terms or concepts being changed.
When a simple sentence of "Allahu La illah" can become whatever else it became, instead of "Allah is not an illah/god/a deity for worship". They rest had to become history.
Quran needs to be re understood letter by letter, sign by sign and word by word again. There are no short cuts for it. No tafseer no tasreef, until it is understood word by word.
Regards
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NISWAH n.f. (pl.; see nisa', above)-women
*1230 (30) certain women that were in the city saidOr look up here for detail http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nsw
You will no doubt see many many potential problems that need resolving.
In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
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Salaam Brother Badar,
Quranic understanding was lost when first translation was written. Since then what Muslim are following is the translation of the Quranic message; all of them with out realizing this fact at all. This includes a vast majority of so to called Quranists, as well. It is not just an issue of few words or terms or concepts being changed.
When a simple sentence of "Allahu La illah" can become whatever else it became, instead of "Allah is not an illah/god/a deity for worship". They rest had to become history.
Quran needs to be re understood letter by letter, sign by sign and word by word again. There are no short cuts for it. No tafseer no tasreef, until it is understood word by word.
Regards
I agree with you 100% Brother. We you are doing with your studying and translation work Has To Be Done. Sure, it's a hard task and will be an uphill battle, but it must be done. We didn't get into this mess overnight so we will not get out of it overnight either. It seems some people would rather stick with the traditional understanding due to intellectual laziness and quite possibly ulterior motives.
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In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
If it's so, I agree...the alternative from the alternative side is what exactly? that nisa there is singular m? plural m? Forgotten (m) from the city said? Weak (m) said? What do we use to substitute nisa when there is no substitute offered that really makes sense everywhere without a whole lot of effort to insert? I'm really curious since I have no horse in this race. If there is a better option that makes sense, I'm all for it. If not, let's see why these apparent anomalies exist.
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The morphological question from my point of view is fundamental. I am not an expert on it, but I do have enough experience and feeling (I think) to suspect that the root hamza-n-s for nisaa' is more fitting than n-s-hamza.
The variety n-s-w is something else, and the two times it appears and wakas has included in the list in one case, as I pointed out the verb is masculine singular and the subject is interpreted as feminine plural. In the other case both seem to be feminine plural.
Is there a difference (there must be) between niswa and nisaa'? If so what is it? And if there is no difference, there must be an explanation. What is it?
In one thing I do concur with shirley and it is that it is very odd, very striking, not to be brushed aside, that there should not be a plural for persons-women coming from the same root as the singular. I do not think there can be exageration in noting how strange that is, because finallly women are not something odd or rare in nature, particularly seen from the point of view of the human species, it is very common. If nisaa' was derived from root hamza-n-s it would be far more logical and far less odd that if it were to come from n-s-'.
I many instances the meaning of nisaa' as women as it appears inthe honourable Qur'an, for me fits too well and makes too much sense to discard. But I continue to have the feeling that the honoured Qur'an is 20 paces (at least) ahead of us and that we try to make it fit our lack of horizon instead of trying to open up our horizon.
Which is why I pointed out that there might be a sociological meaning to nisaa' and rijaal, yes, that the Qur'an indeed understands perfectly the concept of gender as distinct from sex. And consequently uses words to handle different aspects.
The Qur'an is consistent. I establishes and guarantees the due regards and safeguards for the category of women as the main executers of reproduction, but at not time establishes any gender roles.
We do have to open our fan of meanings and possibilities and not brush aside what poses problems under the rug. The Qur'an may have been revealed in the seventh century, but God is ageless and knows what he has created and what we hide and what we do not know that we hide.
So once more, please, somebody able to make a study of the morphological questions regarding the three different roots for the words nisaa'-niswa.
I for one would be grateful and very appreciative.
Salaam
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Read your previous posts on this topic and I tend to agree with you huruf. In some places women fits too well and in others sociological as you say, is a good fit. At the risk of sounding capt obvious, issues arise when square pegs are fit in round holes. Maybe there is a solution in the form of a sociological umbrella term which is specified with context, could be.
In either case, whoever opts to study this further, their efforts would be appreciated.
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Peace Damon,
You are able to convey your ideas very well, mashallah, and I really have to hand it to you there. Thank you for breaking down the material for us slow pokes (arabic challenged) without trying to make us feel stupid. There are only so many hours in a day, and I'm finding it hard enough to keep up with the discussions. sun
While I find your rendition or translation of those particular verses very pleasing, there is that list of verses that Wakas produced that needs to be dealt with. I know that you are not a translator, but I want to see an exposition or rendition of some of those verses, so that I can see how the traditional meaning of 'nisa' can be substituted across various subject areas. If nisa cannot mean women, then what are the possibilities? I apologize if I am asking for too much, but there needs to be consistency across the board. At this point, 'women' appears to fit in well in most places, but then raises questions in other verses. So, if we're not talking about women, then what/who are we talking about? I am still investigating in regard to the menstruation analysis, but apart from that, there are many other verses where questions still lie.
I believe Huruf believes that there can be a sex-specific meaning to nisa as well as a sociological contextual meaning? Or perhaps, we are expected to differentiate between sex and gender? That's interesting as well. hmm
Huruf said
"In one thing I do concur with shirley and it is that it is very odd, very striking, not to be brushed aside, that there should not be a plural for persons-women coming from the same root as the singular. I do not think there can be exageration in noting how strange that is, because finallly women are not something odd or rare in nature, particularly seen from the point of view of the human species, it is very common. If nisaa' was derived from root hamza-n-s it would be far more logical and far less odd that if it were to come from n-s-'."This is something that I have not been able to stop thinking about, either.
As I've said before, I would like you to continue in this thread.
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Say "charge"--positively charged is masculine and negatively charged feminine. Some clouds are mentioned "masculine" while some as "feminine".
Peace Mazhar,
I have no idea what you just said. Please speak in very simple terms. I feel like you are explaining chemistry to me, positively charged subatomic particles and clouds of electrons.
