Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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Peace Huruf,
You said "I am convinced that the Qur'an is a pregnant book, which keeps having children all the time, we should just not prevent them form being born. Of course, while it is good to let the imagination fly in order to conceive ideas, when trying to reach conclusions we should be rigorous and strict and not let partiality get the best of us."
I agree with you on this. I came into this discussion with a very narrow perspective. I had convinced myself that nisa could never mean anything other than what it had always meant to me. I really didn't think very highly of aastana, as I had difficulty understanding what they were saying (communication issues due to language barrier). Regardless of how I personally feel about polygamy, I was going to defend its intended purpose (what I perceived) til the very end. However, after reading Damon's argument, I suddenly don't feel so confident anymore.
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Peace Release,
I don't need to comment on Shiley's post, because even without any Arabic, taking the Koran as a whole nod using my intelligence 43 could not possibly telling men to marry multiple women. I have always argued the direction must be one about supporting society, not one offering men the opportunity to have extra sex and women and children less time with thir husbands and fathers.
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Peace Sunnah hero,
My thoughts entirely. I have always thought it more difficult for ex Sunnis to think more freely. I come from a non Muslim background and feel at ease to examine the Koran objectively although I am hindered massively by having no Arabic.
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Peace Sunnah hero,
My thoughts entirely. I have always thought it more difficult for ex Sunnis to think more freely. I come from a non Muslim background and feel at ease to examine the Koran objectively although I am hindered massively by having no Arabic.
you are absolutely right. Its very difficult, generally mostly for NON-ARAB, ex shias and ex sunnis to think freely as they have always understood the quran in a certain way which is very hard to break particularly because they dont even have the required arabic skills . You are free of all the traditional pollution which makes you interpret quran with an open mind. The only reason for why I rescued my sunni background trap is because I am a native arabic speaker + I was very conscious about not to interfare any sunni understanding into the quran + the fact that I am a young teenage which makes it a lot easier to put my relatively short past behind me and move on and learn something new.
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Peace Sunnah hero,
My thoughts entirely. I have always thought it more difficult for ex Sunnis to think more freely. I come from a non Muslim background and feel at ease to examine the Koran objectively although I am hindered massively by having no Arabic.
Salamun alaika,
Just five preliminary lessons, and you will not feel any hinderance in self translating with the help of online available tools and meanings of individual words. Thereafter, you will learn all nicities yourself.
- Lesson One Identification of words of Quraan merely by watching the text.
- Identification of Phrases in text. (1) Prepositional Phrase; (2) Possessive Phrase; (3) Adjectival Phrase
- Three lessons for Sentence identification---Subject and Predicate and relational/explanatory clauses therein. Nominal sentence and Verbal sentence.
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Salaam Sunnah-hero. ;D
As a native Arab, your input and feedback will prove to be quite valuable. I need to take this time and explain my position so that I am not misunderstood. PLEASE do not misunderstand me pointing out the attitudes of oppression and suppression of women on The Arab World. I am not in any form or fashion degrading Arabs as a people. I am merely pointing out a particular "Cultural Practice" that is unfair to the women in the Arab World.
I am what they call African American (Black Man) and I will be the FIRST to tell you that Black have a lot to learn and bring a lot of their problems on themselves. There are also "Cultural Practices" among Black People that I find outright disgusting. Black men love to disrespect women. Black men love to have kids by a whole bunch of different women and don't care of any of them. Black People can be quite lazy and they LOVE to blame the White People for ALL of their problems. They refuse to take responsibility for themselves and their actions (hey, I'm Black. I'm allowed to say these things laugh ) So please do not misunderstand where I am coming from when pointing out the oppression of women. Women are oppressed all over the world. But within OUR particular discussion of Quran, Islam, Arabic Language, etc. one has to point out where Arab Culture fits in within the global scheme of oppression of women.
But I must also say that you have my heartfelt admiration here because I know just as well as you do how difficult it is to shake off what we've been taught and look at things with our own eyes instead of the eyes of the 'Ulema. As a native Arab yours will be a most welcomed and refreshing voice concerning not only this topic but a re-examination of Islam in general.
The Quran needs you. Humanity needs you.
Very wise words. Being an Arab from my own experience at least I can tell you that women are considered children in the Arab world. As with children, you protect and provide for them but you need to also control them and take their decisions for them as they aren't clever enough. Women are from time to time also used as Scapegoats. But it would be wrong to put all the blame entirely on men as there are a lot of arab women who agree with the bad treatment of women in the arab world, of course as long as they themselves aren't effected by it.................. When I was doing dawa in UK all the women in the mosque were supporters of polygamy but not a single one of them wanted their own husband to take another wife....... some few of them wanted to be second wives as that made them feel better about themselves (I am so hot that I can steal someone else husband)
but not a single one of them wanted to be a first wife. I also attended one islamic lector made by a woman in hijab about the importance of hijab and I swear she said during the lector that women are naqs el 3ql (something like stupid) and that made me convince that she is right... i mean why would someone call himself stupid if it wasnt true??? So I would request all the ladies here not to blame us men. Beside that when I was in Lebanon I witnessed a Palestinian married woman with hijab who was cheating on her husband with an mafia boss but no one seemed to have any problem with it, except of course her husband confusedI will recall and provide you with details for why I didn't considered nesa to be a gender, one of them was because it seemed odd that nesa allegedly are women then why are nesa also translated as wife, daughter, girls etc? Not every woman is a wife, and women cannot be a girl because then she isnt a woman. The correct word to use there would have been UNSA not nesa........... then either the translater misunderstood something or the author of Quran did not knew the difference between the word female and women... As a believer in the quran I put the blame on the translater, not on the author of the quran.
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Salamun alaika,
Just five preliminary lessons, and you will not feel any hinderance in self translating with the help of online available tools and meanings of individual words. Thereafter, you will learn all nicities yourself.
- Lesson One Identification of words of Quraan merely by watching the text.
- Identification of Phrases in text. (1) Prepositional Phrase; (2) Possessive Phrase; (3) Adjectival Phrase
- Three lessons for Sentence identification---Subject and Predicate and relational/explanatory clauses therein. Nominal sentence and Verbal sentence.
Is it just me who finds it hard to understand Mr. Mazhars post ? confused
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Is it just me who finds it hard to understand Mr. Mazhars post ? confused
You can start a poll, I think 90% forum members will be with you &
I don't mean any offense, but just came to this conclusion after seeing response of other members to Mazher's posts including me.
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You can start a poll, I think 90% forum members will be with you &
I don't mean any offense, but just came to this conclusion after seeing response of other members to Mazher's posts including me.
Hehehe dude I really hope Mr. Mazhar is reading this and would hopefully polish his communication skills.. because its h7aram that he spends so much time on free minds without getting his message throughout to people because they dont understand him.
I hope you agree with me mr. mazhar ;D
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Hmmmmm. Don't know if I agree with this public humiliation. I'm pretty certain it is not good behaviour. There must have been a less hurtful way to communicate to Mazhar that his posts might not be clear?
Peace,
Dawn. -
Hmmmmm. Don't know if I agree with this public humiliation. I'm pretty certain it is not good behaviour. There must have been a less hurtful way to communicate to Mazhar that his posts might not be clear?
Peace,
Dawn.But I just want to help the dude..
Then you must come with another suggestion sister... or perhaps you can have a private discussion with the dude and give him some good advice because your english is very good... Because as it is now my english is very bad, in fact us in Spain are world famous for our bad and horrible english so I am not suitable to give any concrete suggestions to anyone regarding english
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Hehehe dude I really hope Mr. Mazhar is reading this and would hopefully polish his communication skills.. because its h7aram that he spends so much time on free minds without getting his message throughout to people because they dont understand him.
I hope you agree with me mr. mazhar ;D
Salamun alaika,
Please tell me what is not understandable in the post under discussion to enable me to agree with you with thanks.
An evidence of overlooking the basic lessions of reading a text of any language might be seen even in this quote from a person who is an Arab
I will recall and provide you with details for why I didn't considered nesa to be a gender, one of them was because it seemed odd that nesa allegedly are women then why are nesa also translated as wife, daughter, girls etc? Not every woman is a wife, and women cannot be a girl because then she isnt a woman. The correct word to use there would have been UNSA not nesa........... then either the translater misunderstood something or the author of Quran did not knew the difference between the word female and women... As a believer in the quran I put the blame on the translater, not on the author of the quran.
It shows he is not identifying the difference between a word and a phrase.
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Salamun alaika,
Please tell me what is not understandable in the post under discussion to enable me to agree with you with thanks.
An evidence of overlooking the basic lessions of reading a text of any language might be seen even in this quote from a person who is an Arab
It shows he is not identifying the difference between a word and a phrase.
I dont know how I shall explain it to you Mr. Mazhar but when I read your post I feel like I am reading an old chemistry book.. do you understand what I mean ? confused
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salaam huruf, all,
In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
Thanks for pointing this out. I have not researched this in any detail, however a quick google revealed discussion about this area, i.e. how the verb can be either masculine or feminine if the subject mentioned is a broken plural.
e.g.
From http//www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_Language_Course/LessonsLB/L030_005.html
The verb doers in these sentences are (children) and (people). The two nouns are broken plural ( ٍ forms (Lesson 13). This means that if the verb doer is a broken plural, the verb can be masculine or feminine....From http//forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2025330
The rule you mentioned in post #11 concerns only subject and verb agreeing. So, if the subject is a broken plural, the verb may be either masculine or feminine. / - / - /And specifically here http//khanivorous.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/notes-on-arabic-language.html
For subject which are in the Broken Plural form, the preceding Verb is
a. Singular
b. Of the Opposite Gender
ex. Qala Niswatun (Niswah is a feminine Broken Plural, and Qala is masculine)
ex. Qalat-il-A'raabu (A'raabu is a masculine Broken Plural, and Qalat is feminine)It would be interesting to see what the possible explanations of this are. However, claiming niswatun are part/all male in 1230 does not address what comes after, nor its other occurrence, wherein only feminine forms seem to be used. Nor does it resolve why "nisa" seems to be exclusively used with feminine forms.
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I dont know how I shall explain it to you Mr. Mazhar but when I read your post I feel like I am reading an old chemistry book.. do you understand what I mean ? confused
I tried to say something in simple manner regarding the cognitive process of understanding a written linguistic message.
Otherwise a simple thing, in relation to Qur'aan it starts seeming an old chemistry book, unfortunately. Here, many are scholarly disertations on concepts of Qur'aan without knowing or following the cognitive process.
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I had the impression that it must have something to do with that, since essentially broken plurals are group names, and group names in many languages tend to be3 feminine, but then there arises other questions which are may be even more puzzling. If nisaa' is a broken plural, aren't broken plural for people meant for masculine subjects? I mean the normal plural for women should be imra'at, or not? Also shouldn't the subjects also be in the singular? Because broken plurals are feminine but also concord in the singular. Either there is some concert on this or what it may turn out is a free for all, where anything can be anything. I do not think the Qur'an does that.
The use of nisaa' as a plural, where there is no singular from that same root continues to be an oddity, as it is an oddity that it should be a broken plural.
If we look at rajul-rijaal, it is weird that it comes from foot or leg, but still there is a singular and a plural. Not so with nisaa'.
Also puzzling is that we see that masculine in that sentence in 12.30, but it is weird, if being a broken plural it can be either feminine or masculine, that systematically it is feminine that is used in the Qur'an where nisaa' is concerned.
Also, is niswah really a broken plural? What kind of form or paradigm is that? If anything, it shows the shape of a feminine singular? Is there any other instance where a broken plural is made by adding a ta marbuta at the end and changing a hamza to waw.
The whole thing does not get less puzzling, and I must come back to my queery for a morphological study.
I do continue to have the feeling that the Qur'an is trying to teach us something important, but we are just too closed to let the light come in.
However, I am glad that we keep trying, even if for the moment we do not seem to get ahead. In sha' Allah we will get some fruit of this.
Salaam
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In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
Peace -- a few possibilities ...
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1230 should be consistent with 1231 and said (f/p) and 1251 said (f/p)
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Who is talking in 1230 -- Joseph, her husband, her kinsmen or NSWh ? in the town?
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Lastly how would one write -- "and said women his"?
1226 he said she sought to seduce me about myself and testified/witnessed witness from her family if it is his shirt torn from front so she speaks truth and he from the liars 1227 and if it is his shirt torn from back so she lied and he from the truthful 1228 so when he saw his shirt torn from back he said indeed it from your plot indeed your plot mighty 1229 Joseph turn away about this one and ask forgiveness for your guilt indeed you are from the sinners
1230 and said (m) NSWh ? in the town woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself hence infatuated her love indeed we surely see her in error clear 1231 so when she heard of scheming theirs (f/p) she sent for them (f/p) and she prepared for them a banquet and brought forth each one (f) from them (f/p) sikknan/a knife? and she said enter onto them (f/p) so when they saw him they admired him and cut hands theirs (f/p) and said (f/p) forbid to God not this one a mortal indeed this one only angel noble
1250 and said (m) the king bring me of him so when came to him the messenger he said return to your lord so ask him what of the al-NSWh ? the ones whom (f/p) cut hands theirs (f/p) indeed my Lord in plot theirs (f/p) Knowing 1251 he said what affair yours (f/p) when you sought to seduce Joseph about himself said (f/p) forbid to God not we know onto him from horrible she said woman the mighty now evident the truth indeed we sought to seduce him about himself and indeed he of from the truthful
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Salaam,
A quick note of an Arabic grammar rule and the use of feminine forms with Nisaa' and Niswatun. In fact, this question came up a while back in this thread concerning the use of the feminine word "wahidatun" in 4/3 and "sadiqaatiheen" in 4/4. I am attempting to not just address those two verses in particular but the rule in general which we see throughout The Quran and in The Arabic Language.
The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
"Sadaqaatiheen" is obviously referring to the last mentioned collective noun which is An-Nisaa' which of course is the word directly before "sadaqaatiheen".
However, I'd like to remind everyone here that collective nouns (although inherently plural in subject) DO have plural forms as well and the rules governing them do change depending of if the plural is a broken plural or sound plural and if it the plural is masculine or feminine in form. As Huruf has been saying, research probably should be done to ascertain if Nisaa is a singular collective noun which has a plural form or if it is already the plural form of a collective noun. If it is already the plural form, which paradigm is it (broken or sound)? What I do know is that the root possibilities Huruf gave us all appear to be "irregular" root words to me which means that we will really have to put our heads together to narrow things down and pinpoint what this word really is grammatically.
