Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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Female and women is not the same. Thus, the above translation also agrees that Nisa does not mean women. (However, I do not think that nisa means females as the translation suggests)
Female companion is not the translation of Nisa. It is the meaning of word Zujaha.
Regards,
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I have been reading this interesting thread off and on. Dammon has done a wonderful job of proving the point that word "Nisa? linguistically does not and could not mean "Woman".
Thank You Brother Badar.
However, nay sayers keep bringing other verses from same wrong translation that is cause of the entire problem. This is the point that is being high lighted. It is not a mater of one concept or one word wrong. It is all of it. It needs fresh start needs to be retranslated, letter by letter and word by word. Until this is done there is no understanding.
Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying as well in this thread. The nay sayers keep asking to explore this verse and that verse, what about the word here and what about there, etc. without realizing that EVERY WORD (including the word Nisaa) in those 50 or so verses also need to be reinterpreted. It's like they refuse to get it. But this is what preconceived notions and conceptual barriers will do. It impedes rational thinking and makes a person forfeit honesty.
FOR THE RECORD, I would like to make it known that I endorse and support Brother Badar's Translation efforts just like I support and endorse Dr. Qamar Zaman's translation project, and for the same reasons one of which Brother Badar just mentioned
It needs fresh start needs to be retranslated, letter by letter and word by word. Until this is done there is no understanding
Agreed. I came to realize the need for a total re-understanding of The Quran while I was still a traditional Muslim myself. And it is this bravery and taking up of the mantle that Brother Badar and Dr. Qamar have gained my respect and admiration.
Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Agreed. I came to realize the need for a total re-understanding of The Quran while I was still a traditional Muslim myself. And it is this bravery and taking up of the mantle that Brother Badar and Dr. Qamar have gained my respect and admiration.
Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
Brother when I see hundreds and hundreds of fellow men and women dying every day; due this painful cancer of religion build arround Quran. I do not even feel like saying thank you.
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Female companion is not the translation of Nisa. It is the meaning of word Zujaha.
Regards,
sorry i read it in hurry and assumed that since whenever 'woman' doesnt fit in in the translation, the translator usually translate nisa with wives or females.
Peace
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I have been reading this interesting thread off and on. Dammon has done a wonderful job of proving the point that word "Nisa? linguistically does not and could not mean "Woman". However, nay sayers keep bringing other verses from same wrong translation that is cause of the entire problem. This is the point that is being high lighted. It is not a mater of one concept or one word wrong. It is all of it. It needs fresh start needs to be retranslated, letter by letter and word by word. Until this is done there is no understanding.
Here is a translation of first verse of An Nisa. If needed would be happy to give word by word break down.
Regards,
41
O you sleepy inattentive, the state of commotion is what you all need to guard and protect against. Your Rabb (sustainer, maintainer, foster and accomplisher), is he who created you for this common purpose. As well created your female companions for the same purpose, then spread from two of you, multitudes of mankind and you all forgot about this purpose. So you all guard against this forgetfulness. One who is not a deity for worship; is he, whom you are always seeking knowledge and information, about this purpose as well, your relationship. For sure, one who is not a deity for worship is always a preserver and guardian, over you.
Peace -- the above is illogical; which words are you translating to exactly what?
41... rijalan much wanisan
... indeed The God He is over you WatchfulYes, this is exactly what I have been saying as well in this thread. The nay sayers keep asking to explore this verse and that verse, what about the word here and what about there, etc. without realizing that EVERY WORD (including the word Nisaa) in those 50 or so verses also need to be reinterpreted. It's like they refuse to get it. But this is what preconceived notions and conceptual barriers will do. It impedes rational thinking and makes a person forfeit honesty.
Thus you admit you are clueless about every word and continue to post on the subject?
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No, I admit that you are clueless about the word Nisaa' which is why I continue to post on the subject.
If you are able to address the points I summarized in This Post then give it a go. If you come back without addressing them then it's just more loud barking with nothing behind it in which case I'll not waste my time.
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No, I admit that you are clueless about the word Nisaa' which is why I continue to post on the subject.
If you are able to address the points I summarized in This Post then give it a go. If you come back without addressing them then it's just more loud barking with nothing behind it in which case I'll not waste my time.
No you made no points!
Here I've addressed everything; now your turn to simply translate otherwise you are clueless!
41 O you al-nas/the humankind fear your Lord the One who created you from soul one (f) and created from it its spouse and dispersed from them two rijalan/men much wanisan/and women and fear The God the One who you ask with it and the wombs/blood relations indeed The God He is over you Watchful 42 and give the orphans their wealth and not exchange the bad with the good and not eat/consume their wealth to your wealth indeed it it is sin great 43 and if you fear that not do justice in the orphans so marry what aba (lawful or agree) to you from the women paired/twos and three and quadruplet/group of four so if you fear that not do justice so one (f) or what possess your right hands/trust that minimum that not you oppress 44 and give the women their handouts graciously so if they remit for you about a thing from it of soul/their own so eat/consume it satisfaction ease 45 and not give the foolish your wealth the one made The God for you standing/support and provide them in it and clothe them and speak to them a word appropriate 46 and test the orphans until when attained the marriage so if you perceive from them rational so deliver to them their wealth and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily lest/that they grow up and from he is rich so should refrain and from he is in need for so let eat/consume in the fair manner so when you deliver to them their wealth so take witnesses on/over them and sufficient in The God Reckoner 47 lilrrijal/to the men a share from what left the parents and the close relatives and for the women a share from what left the parents and the close relatives from what small from it or large portion obligatory 48 and when comes the division those the relatives/near and the orphans and the needy so provide them from it and speak for them a word appropriate 49 and let fear the those who if they left from behind them offspring weak concerned on/over them so let them fear The God and let them speak a word right 410 indeed the those who ate wealth the orphans injustice surely ate in their bellies of a fire and they will be burned a blaze 411 directs you The God in your children lildhakari/to the male like share al-unthayayni/the two (f) so if they are (f/p) nisan/women above two (f) falahunna/so for them (f/p) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/she is (f) widatan/one (f) so for her the half...
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LOL...Just As I Thought!! laugh laugh
Instead of addressing and trying to refute the points that I made this is how you get out of doing so
No you made no points!
If/when you are ready to tackle those issues let me know. Until then........
peace
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Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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I'm going to post my points again for everyone to look over
*someone is being addressed and given instructions in 4/3. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
*We go BACKWARDS to 4/1 to find out WHO that someone is. It is An-Naas and An-Naas is People!! This includes men AND women. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
*By going back to 4/1 we know that it is NOT men alone who are being addressed in 4/3, but it is men AND women being addressed (and commanded) in 4/3. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
*4/3 has a masculine verb (Taaba) that is performed by An-Nisaa. How do we know? Here's how
A). It cannot be performed by the 2nd Person Addressee. Taaba is a 3rd Person Verb and I have yet to hear an explanation as to HOW a 3rd Person Verb can be performed by the 2nd Person Addressee. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
B). The traditional Musafeer and translations say this verb (Taaba) means what is good or what seems good to you all, but I think this is incorrect as this would give the 3rd person masculine verb Taaba a PASSIVE meaning which is wrong. Tayyib means good. So something that would be or seem good to the 2nd person addressee would be Tayyib. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
C). Another word that is overlooked is the word Lakum which means To/For You all. Having ascertained that Taaba is in it's 3rd Person basic form, we see that it cannot be done by the addressee since Lakum is pointing to the 2nd Person Addressee. Taaba is 3rd person and Lakum is 2nd person. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
D). In spite of what some people may wish to think or how vehemently they wish to reject it, Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa IS constructed in the Ma...Min Clause/Construct. I have yet to come across an Arabic grammar book that says this is bogus or does not exist. Studying the links to the grammar books I have given and carefully studying the sentence in question in 4/3 would reveal this in my humble opinion. Is all of this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please Linguistically/Grammatically Refute This.
*To believe that the word Nisaa means women but DOES NOT have a singular form (even though the words WOMAN and WOMEN are two of the most COMMON EVERY DAY WORDS in EVERY LANGUAGE) would suggest that the species that this word is applied to were not always familiar to the 7th Century Arabs just like the Arctic Fox, the Arctic Hare and the Walrus. New words had to be made up and coined for these three Northern Climatic animals since the 7th Century Arabs were not always familiar with them and we see how the Singular and Plural of each word are using two different sets of roots. Since this anomaly supposedly exists for Woman (Imraa'a) and Women (Nisaa', this suggests to me that (just like the three aforementioned Arctic animals) that the 7th Century Arabs were not always aware of and familiar with Women and when they finally learned of the existence of women, they had to coin new terms for them in both their singular and plural form. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please explain how this so-called anomaly exists for a COMMON EVERYDAY word.
- Lastly, some questions were asked which were never answered. I'll repeat here a few of them. Since the defenders of the status quo cannot even answer just this one question, logically I cannot expect them to answer any of the rest of them. BUT...WHY must I marry a woman in order to financially help her? What road block exists that would prevent me for helping her financially if I do not marry her? Answer Please?
And if anyone here does wish to make an attempt at answering this question please keep this in mind The Monetary Contribution DOES NOT change at all. If I'm paying her rent or mortgage for her, groceries, utility bills, transportation, clothing, education and giving her spending money, the monetary output does not change if I marry her. So there's no change in the monetary contribution I am making if I marry her or not. Is this TRUE or FALSE? If it's false please explain why I cannot financially assist a woman unless I am married to her.
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Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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LOL...Just As I Thought!! laugh laugh
Instead of addressing and trying to refute the points that I made this is how you get out of doing so
If/when you are ready to tackle those issues let me know. Until then........
You've made no points; gave no translation, and your assumption is logically flawed...
41 O you al-nas/the humankind (includes all men and women)...
43 ... so marry what aba (lawful or agree) to you from the womenHere are all possibilities, telling...
- men to marry women
- men to marry men
- women to marry men
- women to marry women
Of course only the first is correct. Therefore you have no point! Now are you going to be a coward refuse to translate?
I've made it easy for you to simply paste in above text what you think nisaa means otherwise admit you are clueless.
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Well, I gave you a chance and you blew it. Congratulations. I now have to continue to ignore you and not take you seriously just like the other two amigos.
And you confirmed what I had already suspected. You Obviously don't possess sufficient grammar knowledge to refute them or else you would have made an attempt to do so. ;D ;D
As per 25/63 I will only say peace
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Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Moderators,
Either please lock this thread and put it in trash, otherwise ask this Astana propagandist to answer the questions Noon and others put forward.
The assertions on this thread are so erroneous that had it been put on any other forum, the administration aware of Arabic would have straight away deleted it.
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Moderators,
Either please lock this thread and put it in trash, otherwise ask this Astana propagandist to answer the questions Noon and others put forward.
The assertions on this thread are so erroneous that had it been put on any other forum, the administration aware of Arabic would have straight away deleted it.
a continuous absurd and hatred assuming a reversal of the party's opinions do not yield fertile ground for intervention by the moderator side nonetheless is the conviction that you learn skills in terms of appreciation for people's opinions. Furthermore, your skills in Arabic are at a minimal level, further confirmed by your Pakistani background.
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You've made no points; gave no translation, and your assumption is logically flawed...
41 O you al-nas/the humankind (includes all men and women)...
43 ... so marry what aba (lawful or agree) to you from the womenHere are all possibilities, telling...
- men to marry women
- men to marry men
- women to marry men
- women to marry women
Of course only the first is correct. Therefore you have no point! Now are you going to be a coward refuse to translate?
I've made it easy for you to simply paste in above text what you think nisaa means otherwise admit you are clueless.
with all sadness my nooniiiii friend your entire argument and logic is based on false assumptions (
Here are all possibilities, telling...
- men to marry women
- men to marry men
- women to marry men
- women to marry women
All 4 are wrong ... the verse begins with 4.1 AL NAS... (humankind).........so the 5 and correct answer is
- Homo sapiens to marry homo sapiens
43 ... so marry what aba (lawful or agree) to you from the women
if homosexuality is not lawful then the verse says woman marry man from nisa and man marry woman from nisa (human kind marry nisa)................................... peace
do I have a valid point or not Adi?s amigos
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Salaam Sunnah Hero and Thanks For Your Posts. It's always a pleasure.
Actually, I don't take either one of those guys seriously. How can I? It always happens in a forum such as this where some people only function as Discouragers and Moles especially when they simply Cannot refute that which challenges their position. I have asked from PAGE 1 of this thread for the defenders of the status quo to answer and refute the points I had reiterated two posts back. They Didn't. They didn't even approach them. Neither did they attempt to answer the questions I asked concerning the logic behind marrying a woman to help her.
So what do we get? We have the Mullah of Free-Minds asking moderators to assist him in burying his head in the sand and we have another person who obviously posts verses from a word-for-word translation and wishes to pass that off as Arabic knowledge. So again, how can I take them seriously? This is the reason that I am not paying either one of them any attention. If what I am saying is absurd and erroneous then why don't they just PROVE IT and get it over with?? I have repeated those same summarized points on more than one occasion in this thread and Wakas and his crew simply WILL NOT touch them. nope
In case this noon guy didn't get it, I'm going to repeat something you said Sunnah Hero
with all sadness my nooniiiii friend your entire argument and logic is based on false assumptions
Which is Exactly why I don't bother with him or that Mazhar guy. I reject the traditional translation of the word Nisaa and they are presenting me that same traditional translation as if I'm supposed to accept it because They are presenting it.
whatever
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Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Which is Exactly why I don't bother with him or that Mazhar guy. I reject the traditional translation of the word Nisaa and they are presenting me that same traditional translation as if I'm supposed to accept it because They are presenting it.
Reject it, but give alternate translation so that the visitors realize who of all is stupid, irrational and mindless. First five occurrences are pasted there in the thread. Have courage and put your translation for this singular word in the Ayah.
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I've done that more than once IDIOT!! Go back and read them. I'm not here to cater to you. I've done that already and I don't need to do it again just because you want me to. You use big words to try and make yourself look intellectual but EVERY TIME I have read something from you, I realize that you're not too bright actually. Continue to use your Harvard Facade to cover up what you lack.
Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
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Salaam Sunnah Hero and Thanks For Your Posts. It's always a pleasure.
Actually, I don't take either one of those guys seriously. How can I? It always happens in a forum such as this where some people only function as Discouragers and Moles especially when they simply Cannot refute that which challenges their position. I have asked from PAGE 1 of this thread for the defenders of the status quo to answer and refute the points I had reiterated two posts back. They Didn't. They didn't even approach them. Neither did they attempt to answer the questions I asked concerning the logic behind marrying a woman to help her.
So what do we get? We have the Mullah of Free-Minds asking moderators to assist him in burying his head in the sand and we have another person who obviously posts verses from a word-for-word translation and wishes to pass that off as Arabic knowledge. So again, how can I take them seriously? This is the reason that I am not paying either one of them any attention. If what I am saying is absurd and erroneous then why don't they just PROVE IT and get it over with?? I have repeated those same summarized points on more than one occasion in this thread and Wakas and his crew simply WILL NOT touch them. nope
In case this noon guy didn't get it, I'm going to repeat something you said Sunnah Hero
Which is Exactly why I don't bother with him or that Mazhar guy. I reject the traditional translation of the word Nisaa and they are presenting me that same traditional translation as if I'm supposed to accept it because They are presenting it.
whatever
==================================================================
Basically what Dr. QZ and the Aastana members are doing is something I realized must be done even when I was still a sunni, and that is we are Starting All Over From Scratch!! The people who altered and defaced the message did so by starting from scratch and they were very methodical about it. WE have to do the same thing IF we want to perform the correct surgery in order to repair The Quran's message and image.
"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit of all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.
I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."
I do understand your point dude..... However, You have made your point clear to them, so going in a circle wont help anybody... they can just check up your earlier post )
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Reject it, but give alternate translation so that the visitors realize who of all is stupid, irrational and mindless. First five occurrences are pasted there in the thread. Have courage and put your translation for this singular word in the Ayah.
You cannot solve a problem if you don't recognize it................... So first recognize what a word can possibly not mean, then identify the flaws of the context and identify what sorrounding words may mean in another possible manner... in that way you would come across the true meaning of a word........... Shirley has taken the first step... he/she has recignized that Nesa cannot mean 'women' and now the next step would ber to identify the meaning of sorrounding words like abna2, rijaal, qowm and so on and then in the end when we have put it all in context we would know what Nesa means.
But dudes.. the discussion right now is what nisa cannot mean.. not what nisa means.. that would be discussed after an agreement to the first part...