Knocking on the doors of atheism
-
Muslims must learn to pay attention to what God is telling us.
Being a kuffar is their problem not ours!O0
Thank you for this important reminder!
I agree with you dear brother handshake -
I've been wanting to write this thread for a while, but I just didn't know if I can find the words to express how I feel. I'm 32 years old. I was born in a Muslim country to a Muslim family. Until I was about 19, I followed Islam blindly. Then after 19, I started to doubt. I bought the bible and read it. I began surfing the net, logging into religious forums, exchanging ideas with people. Although the doubt continued to nag me, I still practiced Islam.
When I was 25, I moved to Australia. The experience was quite an eye opener. When you see a country that is so diverse, that has so many cultures and religions, it really changes you. it makes you think about the idea of a "one true religion" again. Is it possible that all these people are wrong and going to hell, and that only the people who practice one faith (whether Islam or Christianity or whatever) will go to paradise? Did God create us here just to worship him, and if we don't then he will throw us in hell? Isn't that a bit harsh?
Although my faith weakened during these years, I never really considered leaving Islam. What I did was try to fit my beliefs and morals with that of Islam. This was of course hard, since many of my values contradicted the teachings of Islam.
But still I continued to practice. When I returned to Egypt, I began working in an office which had 90% atheists. I didn't really care. I continued praying and fasting and doing my religious duties. But the doubts grew bigger and bigger. Then one day, a few months ago, I felt that I was lying to myself. I simply did not believe in Islam. I was just doing the rituals because I was just to doing them I thought I need to face myself. I need to admit the truth. I am no longer a Muslim.
At this point, I consider myself an atheist/agnostic. I have still not made a decision on whether there is a God or not. I hope there is. I like the idea of a God who protects me and has my back.
Ever since I left Islam, I felt lighter, happier. I felt that I no longer had to practice something which I not only disliked, but actually abhorred.
However, the doubts come to me as an atheist, just as they used to come to me when I was a Muslim. What if I am wrong? What if Islam is indeed the truth? What if I go to hell for all eternity because of my decision?
The thing is I WANT to believe in Islam. I really do. It would make my life easier, especially in a conformist society like the one I live in. But I just don't. I guess faith is a bit like your appetite. You have to wait to be hungry. You cannot force yourself to be hungry. And I am just NOT hungry.
So I don't know what to do. This journey began when I was 19, so I've been living in confusion for 13 years. That's a long time. I want to find the truth and find peace. What should i do?hi
This seems to be the human dilemma. My advice to you is, "if you do not know, do not believe nor desbelieve. Be in the center of all possibilities until the evidence sways you either way. Be certain that you have all the evidece before you are swayed." This is my mindset I set myself to adopt.
-
StopS, confused and others.....
It is black and white. Either God exists or doesn't. I believe that God exists and atheist doesn't. Evidence or lack of evidence is besides the point. If God exists, then I am right. If God doesn't, then atheist is right. Simple as that.
No, you still don't understand what atheism is. If a god exists, then you have a reason to believe a god exists and atheism vanishes. By definition. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It is about a lack of a belief.
Either afterlife exists or doesn't. No one has evidence of existence of afterlife. To an atheist, no evidence=no afterlife. I have no evidence but I believe in the afterlife. If afterlife does indeed exists, then I am right. If afterlife doesn't exist, then the atheist is right. That simple. Black and white.
No, the afterlife does not feature in atheism. It has nothing to do with the belief in a god. You can theoretically have an afterlife without a god.
So first thing you need to do is ask yourself if all living things came into existence just by nature or if there is a creator. We were all once a tightly coiled DNA arrested in prophase 1 of meisosis in primary oocyte at the time our mothers were born. Actually, cant even say that as only after fertilization did we have the full genetic code to be this complex human beings with emotions, thoughts, feelings, having a brain, heart, lungs, etc. similar in many ways but yet uniquely different. You believe that randomly spontaneously all living things came into existence and each uniquely programmed by nature however you define nature or understand nature to be or do you believe that there is a creator?
You are making the same mistake again, a non sequitur. Atheism has nothing to do with science. The dichotomy for life is not nature or a creator. That's only what you think.
You are conflating 2 things "randomly spontaneously all living things came into existence" is a mix between abiogenesis and evolution.
No, there is no evidence for a creator. I don't see a process or signs for creation. There is no intelligence or design and no goal in nature.What are you having problems with? believing in a higher being aka God or the concept of God? Problems with what you understand or don't understand God to be? So you believe in God but just have problems with God?
No problem at all. I just want to know why people believe this and I don't. I'm trying to make sure that what I believe is correct and that I am not missing out on something. That is why I challenge people here to tell me why they believe what they believe and someone tells me something which is obviously wrong I point that out. Easy. What is YOUR problem with that? Why do you see a need to write this post?
Important that you make this distinction. One is absolute rejection or disbelief of existence of God. The other is belief in God but just have a problem with God. So you believe in God but you have a lot of problem with God himself. You are appalled by God. You have grievances against God.
Again it is impossible to reject what has not been proven to exist. You can't have a problem with something what has not been proven to exist.
You have this whole problem of God creating earth. Creating living things. Life and death. You have issues with free will. You have issues with hell and heaven.
Show me how and show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that it happened by gravity and formation.
Show me how and show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that life started through abiogenesis, the process of which has not been proven.
Show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that heaven or hell exist.
Free will is different. That is a logical impossibility. Same as omnipotence or the exclusion of "merciful" and "just".First step is belief in God. Next step is do you believe in hell and heaven? You can believe that a higher being created everything but not believe in hell and heaven. Do you believe in afterlife? Ok we are not talking about evidence or lack there of. do you or do you not believe that death is the end or not the end. Do you believe that there is life hereafter? put aside scriptures and people's beliefs or what you have been told.
That is what I think is correct. First believe and then some things will fall into place. That is something I have seen happen. I can't so I don't believe and see no reason to believe any of these exist.
Do you believe that this life is it? Yes or no. Simple as that.
Yes.
So is it the scriptures that you are having problems with? Sounds like that is the problem.
If you reject the scriptures as not from God, then having issues or problems with the content doesn't make sense. If you think that the scripture is written by men, then why are you bothered by what men wrote? If you are confused, unsure about the scriptures then let's talk.
Well, if anything should originate with a god you first need to prove the existence of that very god. You can't say here's a book which says it's from god and therefore there's a god. That's circular and not reasonable if based solely on this premiss.
Muslims concede that a huge portion of the Koran does not make sense. But is that important? I don't think so. What is important is why some men feel they need to interpret this book in such a way that they kill others for the sake of their god as described in the book, instead of letting their god decide on justice and punishment.
- free will. I think this is a concept most misunderstood. If we take our concept of what free will is or should be, then we really do not have free will. Did Adam and Eve have free will to do whatever? No. They could do whatever except to approach this "tree". There is obedience. And consequences for disobedience. If you have a problem with that, then abrahamic concept of God is not for you and it will not bode well with you. So you can either reject or accept certain concepts.
That is not why "free will" does not exist.
Lets take the concept of God first. We can ask how did God come into existence? Who crekated God? No one has the answer to these questions. The best answer is a no answer found in the Koran that God knows the unknown. You can be satisfied with that or not.
Sure, but then why not apply that to the Big Bang and abiogenesis as well?
By the way, if you want to talk about the concept of God then you must first believe in God. If you don't believe in God then it is pointless and doesn't make any sense to talk about God.
I agree.
Let's talk about some concepts in the Koran as that is what seems to be bugging you here. I will address this concept of hell. But I have to stop here as I have a life to live
I'd be interested in hearing your opinion about the necessity of hell.
-
Thank you for this important reminder!
I agree with you dear brother handshakeMuslims must learn to pay attention to what God is telling us.
Being a kuffar is their problem not ours!I thought the Koran said it is not up to humans to judge others and call them names
"Then it will be for (only) Us to call them to account." 8826
"I am not something unprecedented among the messengers, and I do not know what will be done to me or to you. I do not follow anything but what is revealed to me, and I am only a clear warner." 469
"Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." 4028
"Lo! the harshest of all voices is the voice of the ass." 3119
?And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames.? 4911Oh, I forgot about something
?Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is the most knowing of who is guided.? (Qur?an, 16125)
We also have the notion that da
wah is just specifically for non-Muslims or Muslims who have clearly steered far from the deen but that is not true. Dawah is for both the believer and non-believer.But then, what would I know about the Koran?
-
Peace StopS.
I found what you said very interesting, I also read it in Qoran.
Let me quote you first
Show me how and show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that it happened by gravity and formation.
Show me how and show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that life started through abiogenesis, the process of which has not been proven.
Show me evidence for it and I'll consider changing my belief that heaven or hell exist.First let us ask the following key questions
Why do you think you die?
What will be your excuse when you face your creator?
If you think you are not accountable, What is the alternative?
Is everything that happens in this life a waste of time?
Now here is what I read in Qoran
1736 You shall not accept any information unless you verify it for yourself. We have given you the hearing, the eyesight and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.?
3827 We did not create the heavens and the earth and everything between them in vain. Such is the thinking of those who disbelieve.?
5232 Is it their dreams that dictate their behaviour, or are they naturally wicked??
Do you think about your actions/your way of life?
3953 Proclaim? O my servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD s Mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. (providing you correct your ways/works before you die!) HE is Forgiver most Merciful.?
3954 You shall obey your Lord and submit to HIM totally, (believe and correct your bad ways, behaviour?) before the retribution overtakes you; Then you cannot be helped.?
( Or do you have an excuse?)
3956 Lest you may say? How sorry I am for disregarding GOD s commandments, I was certainly one of the Mockers.? ?
3957 Or say? Had GOD guided me, I would have been with the righteous.? ?
3958 Or say, when you see the retribution,? If I get another chance, I will ( submit) and work righteousness.?
3959 Yes indeed, ( you had your chance!)My proofs ( and message) came to you ( during this life) but you rejected them, turned arrogant and became a disbeliever.?
( You opted for freedom of choice in this life. God is letting you choose. The decision is yours!)
( Excuses will not be accepted!)
404 None argues against GOD s revelations except those who disbelieve. Do not be impressed by their apparent success.? ( This life is a test?)
405 Disbelieving before them ( this generation!) were the ( past generations) people of Noah and many other opponents after them. Every community persecuted their ( prophet or) messenger to neutralise him, and they argued with falsehood to defeat the truth. Consequently, I punished them; How terrible was my retribution.?
4010 Those who disbelieve will be told? GOD s abhorrence towards you is even worse than your own abhorrence towards yourselves. For you were invited to believe, but choose to disbelieve.? ?
4011 They will say? Our Lord, You have put us to death twice and gave us two lives; Now we have confessed our sins, ( evil ways/ works!) is there any way out?? ?
(Is there a day of Resurrection? Will you meet your Lord? If so , What excuse do you have?)
Peace.
-
Peace StopS.
I found what you said very interesting, I also read it in Qoran. First let us ask the following key questions
Why do you think you die?
Excellent, I love your approach and your set of questions. Can you answer these for yourself too? Why do you die and your excuse etc?
I die because my cells don't reproduce properly.
What will be your excuse when you face your creator? - I don't need any.
If you think you are not accountable, What is the alternative? - Doesn't compute. I AM accountable. To society and to my peers.
Is everything that happens in this life a waste of time? - oh absolutely not. I will never have such a good time again.
Do you think about your actions/your way of life? - yes, of course, I would imagine everybody does.
Or do you have an excuse? - like I said, I don't need one.
You opted for freedom of choice in this life. God is letting you choose. The decision is yours! - Freedom is not an option for me.
Excuses will not be accepted! - I don't need any. This is the 3rd time you are asking the same question, I think.
Is there a day of Resurrection? - I don't think so.
Will you meet your Lord? - Is there something like "my Lord"? I see no evidence for the existence of one.
What excuse do you have? - 4th time I don't need an excuse. I have not killed or deliberately hurt or cheated anyone. I have supported and helped. Why should I require an excuse?
I have not been provided any evidence, why should I be punished for that?
Like I said
If a god is omniscient, he will know what evidence I require.
If a god is omnipotent, he can provide the evidence I require.
If a god is merciful, he will provide the evidence I require. -
Peace StopS.
Plain and simple. I die along with all humanity, because we are returning back to our creator for accountability.
Peace.
-
Excellent, I love your approach and your set of questions. Can you answer these for yourself too? Why do you die and your excuse etc?
I die because my cells don't reproduce properly.
Are you sure you will die when your cells don't reproduce properly, or could it be that you cells are perfectly capable of reproducing, but you die because your time is up.
- oh absolutely not. I will never have such a good time again
How old are you?
I have not been provided any evidence, why should I be punished for that?
Like I saidIf a god is omniscient, he will know what evidence I require.
If a god is omnipotent, he can provide the evidence I require.
If a god is merciful, he will provide the evidence I require.At your service is shaytan, not God
-
Peace StopS.
Plain and simple. I die along with all humanity, because we are returning back to our creator for accountability.
Peace.
OK, and then?
What will be your excuse when you face your creator?
If you think you are not accountable, What is the alternative?
Is everything that happens in this life a waste of time?
Do you think about your actions/your way of life?
Or do you have an excuse?
You opted for freedom of choice in this life. God is letting you choose. The decision is yours! Excuses will not be accepted!
Is there a day of Resurrection?
Will you meet your Lord?
If so , What excuse do you have?
-
Peace StopS.
I am " dying" to know the answers.
Peace.
-
Thank you for this important reminder!
I agree with you dear brother handshakeI don't think any creator would have a problem with people discussing different point of views.
By the way, the word Kafir fascinates me. It is a unique word. There is none like it in the world. It deserves a whole book. So many injustices and atrocities have been done just because of that one word.
-
I don't think any creator would have a problem with people discussing different point of views.
By the way, the word Kafir fascinates me. It is a unique word. There is none like it in the world. It deserves a whole book. So many injustices and atrocities have been done just because of that one word.
hi
Can you tell a little more about why this word kafir fascinates you? -
Can I ask the people here a question?
Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There is no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?
YES, of course! For the mere love of God! yes
O God please increase my love for you despite reward of paradise or punishment of hell!
Let my love for You be the most important thing in my life forever!
My simple desire is to be the dust under His Feet! -
Can I ask the people here a question?
Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There is no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?
Yes as my belief in God's existence is not dependent on heaven and hell which I will elaborate on later. Afterlife is what I believe in. This life is what is real to me. The Koran basically is a good book of guidance in this life that I have come to appreciate. Speaking from personal experience.
-
hi
Can you tell a little more about why this word kafir fascinates you?It fascinates me because it is used to dismiss or put down non-believes, as our friend Godsubmitter here who told everyone not to bother with me because I am a Kafir and not worthy. It fascinates me because it has been used by Muslims to justify atrocities towards non-believers. But it really started to fascinate me after the Egyptian revolution, when Islamists began using it against anyone who disagrees with them or their policies. If you vote against them you are a Kafir, if you criticize their policies you are a kafir, if you disagree with their interpretation of Islam, you are a Kafir, if you are a Christian, you are a kafir. One of the saddest moments in my life was when I was attending a memorial for a Christian boy who was shot dead by the army, and a Salafist interrupted by saying that the boy is not a martyr/shahid because he is a Christian and Kafir.
Kafir kafir kafir. You cannot escape from that word in Egypt. It's on every TV channel, radio station and newspaper you read. For Muslims, the word has become like spit, they gather it up in their mouths, swirl it around their tongue and then spew it out at anyone they dislike. -
It fascinates me because it is used to dismiss or put down non-believes, as our friend Godsubmitter here who told everyone not to bother with me because I am a Kafir and not worthy.
It doesn't fascinate me. It sickens me.
-
Excellent, I love your approach and your set of questions. Can you answer these for yourself too? Why do you die and your excuse etc?
I die because my cells don't reproduce properly.
.Hi StopS
You are not the type who shies away so why did you ignore my very vaild question?
Let me put it differently Does one die only when one's cells stop reproducing properly, or could it be that death can come at any time and for many reasons?
Add to that a further question You are having best time of your life but what about those who died before reaching same age as you and never got to enjoy their best time of life on this earth?
Do you ever give a second thought to them and to how they could be compensated?
Please don't ignore me -
Can I ask the people here a question?
Would you follow Islam (or any other faith) if 1. There was no heaven as a reward 2. There was no hell as a punishment?
My reward lies in pleasing the one I love and my punishment is the feeling that I've upset the One I love. Does that make me a self centered person?
I would say yes as my self belongs to the One who fashioned me and made mankind the best of His creations, I strive to live up to that expectation. pr