Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Peace Mazhar,
I hope you are not mocking me.
Yes, and I believe it could take place take this way, out of respect for the first wife's relationship with her husband. The issue here is not in taking in the orphans, managing their wealth, spending on them from one's own wealth and resources, or even sharing one's inheritance with them. The issue here is the nature of the relationship. It really just boils down to the sex and romantic aspect of it. In regard to this, I have the same feelings as Dawn
What has sex and romance got to do with the ultimate goal of helping the vulnerable? For this, I don't have an answer for her or even myself. This what gnaws at my heart.
No mocks, just ground realities.
Financial issues of father-orphan youngesters are dealt with separately. No denying that lot many people usurp such properties.
In Ayah under study, the apprehension is about relationship with father orphan children. It is about relational-sentiment-love-affection-attention care inequality between such and children of living fathers. Marriage which has inevitable sex aspect causes relationship of Man with womb of his wife. This helps and strenghens feelings of love and affection with her children also who were born of her earlier husband. Qur'aan tells that once intercourse is done with a woman, her daughter from first husband becomes non-permissible. If this is not done with her and she is divorced, her daughter on becoming mature remains permissible for marriage. This might indicate the delecacy of sex aspect in marriage.
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Earthly life has its own problems and situations. One is that of pairing for sex. Husband and Wife is the ideal pair.
Problem area emerges when men die and leave behind wives--now without a male partner. Number of women increase. What could be the best solution, let them re-marry. A widow may get an unmarried man, an ideal situation for her. However, if they are larger in number, they have but to opt marry already a married man. Why would a married man like to wed with a widowed woman? Only if he is made duty-bound. So the commdanding order-ordinance obliging them for it.Paradise is something which is earned-purchased. Women win the race and get in the Paradise larger in number than the men who arrived in Paradise. What is the demand and solution of such situation.
Ordinary Men are wed with four wives. Information rather fascinating for men is that they all are made virgins when resurrected. So it is not obligation oriented but pleasure indicative.Salam Mazhar
hypno
These are typical thoughts of a man, "why would a married man to marry a widow??
---- this statement is like why should a cardealer buy a used car, if he can have one new?Apparently, in many men everything depends only on the virginity --- from where you get the information that women in paradise are created as virgins?
In the Quran it says PURE companions. - Both gender - then get the virgins also menvirgins??
The whole scenario is ridiculous - to pay for sex in heaven?We should not speculate about things, that only God knows.
My theory on this verse is that God knows exactly what is happening in the minds of most men in front of him and had to give this verse for the men as a sign that even widowed women have a right to get a loving man - for precisely that reason, because God knows that many men would equate women with used goods ....
Too bad that even men who study the Quran, have not yet grasped it...
Peace -
Apparently, in many men everything depends only on the virginity --- from where you get the information that women in paradise are created as virgins?
It is a fact that We have resurrected-revived them-the Wives, in the manner of anew creation.
Thereby, for reason We have made them virgins.They are coequal, delightful, devoted, eloquent of same species.
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Peace Damon,
I've been reading through your post from the other thread. I've been slower than usual since I have my parents visiting and have been busy. I will post on the other thread soon, God willing.
Your post does make me think. If the idea of polygamy disturbs me as much as it does, then there must be other women out there who feel the same. Perhaps, even most women feel the same way I do? Yes, I have a platform to voice my objections, plus I live in a country where polygamy is classified as bigamy and one can be prosecuted. As a result, I'm protected by law. Of course, I believe the women can be helped in a mulititude of ways aside from remarriage. To be honest with you, I never thought of this verse in any other way. I never thought nisa could mean anything other than women. Briefly, I had come in contact with some aastana members, and instantly rejected their claims without giving it a second glance. I felt like I had made my peace with this verse when I convinced myself that it will do the orphans a lot of good. However, questions arise again. Those questions that I did not dare to ask myself.
Questions like How would the families adjust with one another? What if they all have to live in the same house; how will they cope if the first wife is under distress and her kids notice their mother's unhappiness? What has sex got to do with any of this? Can one really bear even the thought of their spouse having sexual relations with another? Why hasn't God provided more details (instructions, guidance, rules) in regard to polygamy specifically, if it's perfectly permissible? Of course, He would understand the complications of it.
I've always been open to the idea of adoption and my profession requires that I work with children who are classified as "at-risk" or "disadvantaged". I have no problem with emptying out my pockets for someone (and I'm not trying to boast about myself, but just make a point), but to share one's spouse in such a way? Dear God. I feel sick. Yes, Dawn, I'm going to be candid about it, regardless of what I told you----this is how I really feel for myself. I suppose the difference between you and I was; I was trying to somehow justify this in my head (unsuccessfully), and you are outwardly questioning it without hesitation.
Damon, I've come across some polygamy situations that were both positive and negative. The positive ones involved the cooperation of the first wife (again, something I couldn't understand, but it stems from Mormon ideology revolving around celestial wives). The negative ones involved a bunch of unhappy, depressed, and angry women that were hell bent on destroying one another. Even most Sunni and Shia women living in western countries will turn their noses up in disgust at the mentioning of polygamy. I suppose we're not so different from you men. The sectarians like to say that women are of course naturally more jealous than men, but that we're not to bothered by their grievances. I suppose the psychology of women and men is similar in that they both demand a faithful spouse. So, then, where does polygamy fit in where the expectations are the same for both sexes?
Peace Savage Carrot,
See, I see things in a similar way to you. It's like a hypothesis that has rarely been tested, if at all. I like to use the logic of "different strokes for different folks". It's very rare that men actually prefer to marry destitute women with children, when they've got their own families and responsibilities. Most single men prefer to marry single women. So, could it work? I don't know. However, I can say this much, it won't work if the first wife is completely against it. Most likely, we may see a divorce resulting from a marriage. Though, with most women I've come across, the idea of their husband having sex with other women sounds horrific.
Peace Mazhar,
Quite obviously, I have not been reading the same translation as you. Paradise is something that my mind cannot conceive since I've never seen or experienced it. Regardless of the translation, it's all allegorical to me.
The relationship of the man to the womb of his wife? What about the relationship to the womb of his first wife? Isn't that the relationship that he should focus on protecting before he approaches yet another womb? Is it not negligent to approach another womb when you are in danger of losing the one that you have made the initial oath with? Wombs aside, I am referring to women, of course.
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Peace Mazhar,
Quite obviously, I have not been reading the same translation as you. Paradise is something that my mind cannot conceive since I've never seen or experienced it. Regardless of the translation, it's all allegorical to me.
My interest is limited to portray the thought and idea obtaining in the Arabic text of the Book by remaining nearest to the perception infolded in the individual words and their relationship with others in the sentence. I don't know what could be allegorical in the word
describing a state which is obviously a physical one. -
Salaam Savage Carrot, Released,
To be honest with you, I have no problem if anyone (male or female, young or old) believes in polygamy and/or live in a polygamous relationship. I would tell such a person (again male or female) go for it. Whatever floats your boat. I will only voice my concerns when they try to say that it is mandated in The Quran. That's when I have a problem especially when enough evidence is available that a person can combine with logic and reasoning to show that it is not in the Quran and that the MALE translators, mullahs, scholars and imams are taking advantage of the non Arabs' lack of linguistic knowledge. And the native Arabs are Blinded by Ideology and a worldview that does not resonate with The Quranic worldview. Even knowing Arabic or possibly being an Arabic expert won't help a person if his minded is clouded by ideology and thinking that The Quran is saying something that it is not saying. And they think this (Arab and Non Arab alike) because they do not practice independent thinking, question things that should be questioned, question so-called "religious authority" and investigate The Quran Themselves. Nearly the entire Muslim world is taught what The Quran says. They do not investigate The Quran themselves and they do not think for themselves. They are content with allowing "religious authorities" tell them what it says and they do not go and verify it for themselves. Parrot fashion recitation (without understanding what one is reciting) does no one any good.
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Believing that there is no problem if anyone believes polygamous way of life and allows a desirous person to go for it, is typical traditional Mullah's ruling. It is the way to live outside the fold of the Book in the manner one feels pleasureable living of full satisfaction. Thereby, the Book has restrictive role in their lives, they accept what pleases and avoid and interpret that which does not meet their "standards" the way it suits one's desires. Jews have been doing this all along their history. Muslims are following their tradition.
Marrying widows is mandated and allowed only under emergency conditions of presence of father orphans whom society can not look after exactly in the manner father living children are looked after.
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It is a fact that We have resurrected-revived them-the Wives, in the manner of anew creation.
Thereby, for reason We have made them virgins.They are coequal, delightful, devoted, eloquent of same species.
Salam Mazhar
if you read the Quran without the implanted Sunna Context, then you can understand this Aya really
Ba-Kaf-Ra =Beginning of the day, first part of the day, early morning, between daybreak and sunrise
Possessing the quality of applying oneself early, or in hastening,Performing something at the commencement of it, or doing something early, Before it's time, preceding or took precedence, Youthful male camel, young one of a camel
A virgin male or female, or anything untouched, new, fresh, Virginity or maidenhead
A woman or female animal having delivered only onceFirst flush of anything (plant, tree, fruit, honey, rain, flowers)
First born or young children
First of anything, unique action
A want or need seeking to be fulfilled
A cutting blow or stroke that kills at once
A pulley (e.g. of a well)
Small ring or bead
An assembly, company, congregated body
All coming together without exceptionthe main meaning is clear new, fresh, pure, how the same word can mean a
, Virginity or maidenheadOR
A woman or female animal having delivered only once[/b????? hypnoThe out of context references to these verses is unfortunately abused by both Muslims and polemics of the Quran.
Read in context and carefully analysed, one notes that there is no reference to ?Hurs? in these verses and the complete purport of the message is a reference to all of the companions of the right hand, both male and female (Those that will inherit the kingdom of heaven) (56.27). These verses inform the reader, that the people of the right hand will be recreated as a new creation (56.35) as virgins untouched (56.36) and of similar age (56.37). All this is for the people of the right hand (56.37).Let us note the verses in context.
056.027-34
?The Companions of the Right Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Right Hand? (They will be) among Lote-trees without thorns. Among tall trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another. In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in abundance. Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden, And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high?056.035
?Lo? We have created them a (New Creation)?
There is no support from the verse for the often mistranslations that this is referring to the virgin wives of the believing men. The verse is clear that it is dealing with the companions of the right hand and it is them that are being recreated as a new creation.056.036
?And we have made them "virgins" (Arabic Abkaran - Root BKR)?=BKR - A virgin - anything untouched, new, fresh.
056.037
Devoted (Arabic Uruban) Equal in age / well matched (Arabic Atraban)
056.038
For the companions on the right hand (Arabic Ashab-ul-ameen)complete articlehttp//quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
Thank you and salams
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Peace Release,
Re your post 52
You and I have discussed this verse numerous times and you have always argued that you could see how polygamy could benefit society. I really don't understand the point you are making now. Do you believe, in the light of your reading of the whole Koran, that God advocates polygamy for humankind?
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Salam Mazhar
if you read the Quran without the implanted Sunna Context, then you can understand this Aya really
Ba-Kaf-Ra =Beginning of the day, first part of the day, early morning, between daybreak and sunrise
Possessing the quality of applying oneself early, or in hastening, Performing something at the commencement of it, or doing something early, Before it's time, preceding or took precedence, Youthful male camel, young one of a camel
A virgin male or female, or anything untouched, new, fresh, Virginity or maidenhead
A woman or female animal having delivered only onceFirst flush of anything (plant, tree, fruit, honey, rain, flowers)
First born or young children
First of anything, unique action
A want or need seeking to be fulfilled
A cutting blow or stroke that kills at once
A pulley (e.g. of a well)
Small ring or bead
An assembly, company, congregated body
All coming together without exceptionthe main meaning is clear new, fresh, pure, how the same word can mean a
, Virginity or maidenheadOR
A woman or female animal having delivered only once[/b????? hypnoThe out of context references to these verses is unfortunately abused by both Muslims and polemics of the Quran.
Read in context and carefully analysed, one notes that there is no reference to ?Hurs? in these verses and the complete purport of the message is a reference to all of the companions of the right hand, both male and female (Those that will inherit the kingdom of heaven) (56.27). These verses inform the reader, that the people of the right hand will be recreated as a new creation (56.35) as virgins untouched (56.36) and of similar age (56.37). All this is for the people of the right hand (56.37).Let us note the verses in context.
056.027-34
?The Companions of the Right Hand,- what will be the Companions of the Right Hand? (They will be) among Lote-trees without thorns. Among tall trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another. In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in abundance. Whose season is not limited, nor (supply) forbidden, And on Thrones (of Dignity), raised high?056.035
?Lo? We have created them a (New Creation)?
There is no support from the verse for the often mistranslations that this is referring to the virgin wives of the believing men. The verse is clear that it is dealing with the companions of the right hand and it is them that are being recreated as a new creation.056.036
?And we have made them "virgins" (Arabic Abkaran - Root BKR)?=BKR - A virgin - anything untouched, new, fresh.
056.037
Devoted (Arabic Uruban) Equal in age / well matched (Arabic Atraban)
056.038
For the companions on the right hand (Arabic Ashab-ul-ameen)complete articlehttp//quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
Thank you and salams
Salamun alaiki,
He, in an attempt to rebut the traditional fascinating gossips about "Hur" concept, unnecessarily overlooked and naively forgot simple and basic realities about Arabic language. So much so that in the "final balance" he erroneously stated that "hur" remains genderless. It looks ridiculous when stated by a "scholar" because he knows that in Arabic every noun is either masculine or feminine. "Hur" is feminine and is used in Adjectival Phrase where the gender of described and the description also matches.
First point is that I do not let myself, to the best of my effort, influenced by what earlier people said or believed about anything in Qur'aan. I strictly go by the rules of "reading"-the process of identifying and understanding the meanings of the characters and words in written text; which is understood by majority but naively never recalled while reading Qur'aan. The non natives also naively forget that the text of a foreign language becomes understandable only when one knows and adheres to the grammar-morphology and syntax of that language.
Text comprises only three things
1-Word
2. Phrase
3. Sentence.Meanings and connotation of an Arabic word is the composite whole of the meaning and perception infolded in the Root, coupled with meanings associated with its pattern and its relation to the semantic field it is used.
Word is . If you had merely compared it with the words signifying daybreaks in 341; 4055; which is you might have noticed that both are not the same word. Look at the vowel signs on the first Hamza.
is also used twice in Qur?aan. Next it is in 665 in comparison to literally meaning deflowered-not virgin women that is widows or divorcee.
It is second direct object of the preceding verb relating to plural feminine. I don?t know why some ?scholars? firstly condemning someone try to convince their unaware of Arabic audience by evidently nothing but gimmicks.
The preceding verbs, verb with first plural feminine object with second object one cannot perceive of anything else but physical virginity of human women.
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Peace Release,
Re your post 52
You and I have discussed this verse numerous times and you have always argued that you could see how polygamy could benefit society. I really don't understand the point you are making now. Do you believe, in the light of your reading of the whole Koran, that God advocates polygamy for humankind?
Peace Dawn,
No, Dawn. Don't just read post 52. Read all of my posts, please, and then connect them together. I have told you over and over again, that a woman (or whoever) should be compelled or coerced into a polygamous lifestyle, regardless of the reason.
It's only beneficial IF all parties are in agreement, otherwise we're going to run into problems, correct? For example, I would seek divorce, and call it quits. Polygamy is NOT for me. I'd rather be single, thank you very much. Regardless of shared assets and children, I'd call it quits. If my mental health suffers, then things will be far worse.
I don't share the same opinion as Mazhar. I don't believe polygamy is advocated or mandated, I believe it is a permission given under very specific circumstances. However, apart from that permission or suggestion, many other factors come into play. Fallen Angel and I discussed permission from one's initial wife, which I think is a "duh" given that marriage doesn't just work one way. Married couples need to arrive at this decision after mutual consultation and agreement. Marriage never works with a "my way or the highway" attitude, trust me. Plus, that kind of marriage goes against the overall spirit of the Quran, and I'd never want to be in a marriage that is abusive in any sort of way. I've been trying to convey these thoughts to you in the other threads. In this thread, I am merely voicing my personal concerns.
For the record, I'd like to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mazhar in regard to this particular topic. Nor, do I believe that Paradise has anything to do with sex or virgins or whatever, but all of that remains to be seen. Again, I'd rather focus on the present before us, then focus on making solid assumptions of a plane of existence that I may never see or experience.
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Peace Release,
If you believe polygamy is allowed under certain conditions, then you believe it is mandated. Under what circumstances, in the light of the rest of the Koran, do you believe it is allowed?
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Peace Dawn,
No, Dawn. Don't just read post 52. Read all of my posts, please, and then connect them together. I have told you over and over again, that a woman (or whoever) should be compelled or coerced into a polygamous lifestyle, regardless of the reason.
It's only beneficial IF all parties are in agreement, otherwise we're going to run into problems, correct? For example, I would seek divorce, and call it quits. Polygamy is NOT for me. I'd rather be single, thank you very much. Regardless of shared assets and children, I'd call it quits. If my mental health suffers, then things will be far worse.
I don't share the same opinion as Mazhar. I don't believe polygamy is advocated or mandated, I believe it is a permission given under very specific circumstances. However, apart from that permission or suggestion, many other factors come into play. Fallen Angel and I discussed permission from one's initial wife, which I think is a "duh" given that marriage doesn't just work one way. Married couples need to arrive at this decision after mutual consultation and agreement. Marriage never works with a "my way or the highway" attitude, trust me. Plus, that kind of marriage goes against the overall spirit of the Quran, and I'd never want to be in a marriage that is abusive in any sort of way. I've been trying to convey these thoughts to you in the other threads. In this thread, I am merely voicing my personal concerns.
For the record, I'd like to make it clear that I DO NOT agree with Mazhar in regard to this particular topic. Nor, do I believe that Paradise has anything to do with sex or virgins or whatever, but all of that remains to be seen. Again, I'd rather focus on the present before us, then focus on making solid assumptions of a plane of existence that I may never see or experience.
You are such a feminist......
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It is a fact that We have resurrected-revived them-the Wives, in the manner of anew creation.
Thereby, for reason We have made them virgins.They are coequal, delightful, devoted, eloquent of same species.
have you heard of something called virgin olive oil. Or what about EXTRA virgin olive oil ;D
question can someone be EXTRA virgin confused