wine or intoxicants?

Bender

Peace be on you too.

I also think "khamr" means wine. I also believe that what is true of wine is true of diluted wine (beer) or concentrated wine (booze), so perhaps the more comprehensive though clumsier phrase "alcoholic drink" is better.
With this in mind, and with the passage of 6136-145 in mind, I find it very difficult to quranically defend the more or less global suppression of certain crops (like poppy/coca/hemp/peyote/certain mushrooms/whatever else)

As for why people claim the "khamr"-concept extends to other or all non-alcoholic psychoactive substances I can only speculate. Maybe you and I are wrong, or at least partly wrong. Maybe people like to speak about things they have no knowledge of and simply invent a religion that they desire rather than fully submitting to God's will.

Salaam Magnus,

I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.

I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".

What translation do you think is best

2219 They ask you about wine and texas hold 'em...
2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and poker...
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling...

Salaam,
Bender

hawk99

Peace Pouya,

Welcome to the forum,

This appears to cover the whole gambit of intoxication.

They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

Here we have more details as to why the prohibition.

O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

Here we have "pressing" which is consistant with wine.

Sahih International And there entered the prison with him two young men. One of them said, "Indeed, I have seen myself pressing (airu) wine The other said, "Indeed, I have seen myself carrying upon my head bread, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of its interpretation; indeed, we see you to be of those who do good."

Sahih International O two companions of prison, as for one of you, he will give drink to his master of wine; but as for the other, he will be crucified, and the birds will eat from his head. The matter has been decreed about which you both inquire."

Peace

O0

inquisitivetrini

I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.

I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".

I agree with this. Especially because of the words "their harm is more than their benefit". Take marijuana for example. Marijuana is used medically in many instances and is an extremely beneficial plant. But too much ingestion will indeed cloud the mind. Not sure about any other plants like peyote, etc. and I'm absolutely sure hard drugs are out of the picture completely. That's common sense, in my opinion.

The thing I'd like to know is, if we are to avoid it, does it mean absolutely completely? I ask this because I am moving to South Korea soon, except if God wills. If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse. To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.

I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"

So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.

Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"

So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.

Peace -- there are different words being used...

1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for folk who reason

443 O you those who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying ...

222... and you see the humankind sukr/intoxicated and not they bisukr/are intoxicated...

2219 they ask you about al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling say in them both harm immense and benefits to al-nas/the humankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both ...

590 O you those who believe surely al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling and the monuments and the arrows filth (masculine indefinite noun) from work the devil so avoid it (i.e. the filth) that you may prosper 591 surely intends the devil that cause between you the hostility and the hatred in al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling and hinder you about remembrance The God and from the prayer so shall you (be) those who abstain?

It's simple enough -- if one wants to prosper so avoid those things otherwise one can ignore as people ignore the warning labels on cigarettes and alcoholic beverages or excessive compulsive warnings about gambling and it's destructive results.

Pouya

Peace inquisitivetrini

I am kind of sure that we have to avoid khamr completely (whatever it is )
check out the word rijsun (filth) in the Quran, which is used for khamr in 5.90. All verses that have this word seem to put forth something that is even worse than forbidden.
for instance, the same word is used for idol-worship in 22.30. Also faijtanibuhu (avoid it) seems to imply a stronger sense of prohibition than haram. that words is also used in 22.30

so to compare

5.90 - faijtanibuhu al rijsa min amalil sheytan = avoid the filth of the work of satan
22.30 - faijtanibuhu al rijsa minal awthani = avoid the filth of idols.

Quite similar isnt it?

God bless you

NOMAD

Salaam

And Skara is same root as sugar,--becArfull with it

peace

Released

Peace inq,

I had some Korean friends back in high school. Back then I was a Sunni, and so I was an odd ball in regard to gelatin and cooking wine as well. I don't even recognize that person anymore. Anyway, I just explained to my friends that I couldn't drink, because it's against my belief system. They were very accepting of it. I find that they weren't pushy or obnoxious over the fact that I don't drink. So, I would try explaining it to them, and see what kind of response you get. One of Korean friend's mom used to make pork free dishes for me, and they never even offered me alcohol.

By the way, hope the Korea trip works out, sounds like a lot of fun!

mmkhan

Salaam Inq,

I enjoy reading your posts always.

If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse.

It is actually quite disrespectful to refuse the word of Allah.

To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.

To me, that would be like saying I, a creation, knows better than the Creator how to live this life in Korea. Kind of a sensitive issue. &

I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"

Nice questions . Please read what Abdul-Hadi and Bender said. I agree with them fully, alhamduliAllah.

May Allah make things easy for you, and bless you and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

IAMOP

This book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (22)

As always the quran defines itself. I do not understand why people are running around like headless chickens when they can just cross-reference a single verse and get their definition

443 - O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

Now we can also keep in mind this

7619 - None shall touch it (quran) save the purified ones .

So in 443 we have the following conditions avoid 'khamr' until you know what you are saying. Then we have the conditions you must be bodily cleansed, no dirt with the minimum being that your face and hands are clean.

Let us take the working definition of khamr as "that which is not pure". In another verse it has been called 'rijs', filth. This is identical to the opposite of tahara. To read the quran and understand it one must be in a state of physical cleanliness AND mental purity (tahara) according to 7619 cross referenced with 443.

Now does the fact that it is rijs mean it is forbidden? It is no more or less forbidden to touch 'khamr' than it is to touch poop and pee, things you will do multiple times a day with or without your hands. A lot of things are 'rijs'. Anything on the path of satan is 'rijs', anything that is dirty is 'rijs', anything that veils or distorts any less than full clarity of perception is 'rijs'. There are varying degrees. For instance poop is more 'rijs' than pee, as urine is sterile but poop isn't.

Let us be aware there are two words to consider. One is 'khamr' (CLICK ME!) and the other is 'sakara' (CLICK ME!). Click on these words in the last sentence for a direct list of their inclusions in the quran via the Quran Corpus website.

Likewise, the two most common substances which veil the mind are cigarettes & alcohol. The state of 'sakratihim' (intoxication) produced by both are very different! A cigarette distracts from 'salat' when it wears off and the person fiendishly craves for another one. Alcohol distracts from salat both while it is in the system (drunkenness), and when it wears off (hangover).

Now it is said that 'sakara' we must get out of to be in 'tahara'. We must avoid 'al-khamr' entirely to be successful. I hope this helps, more to follow when I can better process and analyse.

peace

Magnus

Salaam Magnus,

I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.

I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".

What translation do you think is best

2219 They ask you about wine and texas hold 'em...
2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and poker...
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling...

Salaam,
Bender

Salaam Bender.
I think the best translation is one is one you didn't list among your alternatives
4) 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and gambling...

With a strict (alcoholic) definition of khamr, there are clear edges to what the verse means and doesn't mean.

With a more extensive understanding of khamr, the need has now arises to define what is and isn't something "what covers the mind" or whatever this now means. Do we now examine every single psychoactive substance and determine whether it's "khamr", and just according to whom exactly, if opinions on particular effects of various drugs differ - in other words do we allow for the fact that drugs affect different people differently? Do we accept that certain plants that God has created are evil, and that people who want to grow and consume these plants for their psychoactive properties are criminals who should be punished? Is this the "common sense" Inquisitrini referred to when it came to "hard drugs"?
I firmly maintain that God indeed has created not only human brain chemistry but also both the opium poppy and the coca plant, and that anyone who wishes to cultivate these particular plants or any other plants as crops for human consumption has every right to do so according to God's law.

Noon_waalqalami

And Skara is same root as sugar,--becArfull with it

Peace, yes sugars are involved in fermenting alcoholic beverages and well known for thousands of years...

http//www.homebrew.net/ferment/
On Fermentation and Yeast

Yeast is essential to all alcoholic beverages. It is a living thing, trillions of cells in your fermentation vessel, all hungrily turning sugars into carbon dioxide and alcohol for you.
The process of fermenting is basically feeding sugars and nutrients in solution to yeast, which return the favor by producing carbon dioxide gas and alcohol. This process goes on until either all the sugar is gone or the yeast can no longer tolerate the alcoholic percentage of the beverage. Different yeasts produce different results, and have different tolerance levels.

Peace -- there are different words being used...

1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for folk who reason

443 O you those who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying ...

hawk99

Peace,

SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, ..................................

intoxication
n

drunkenness; inebriation
great elation
the act of intoxicating
(Medicine) poisoning

some translations use the word intoxicate or intoxicant,
which simply means to be high or not your normal self
stoned, dulled, the senses impaired.
In america we are not allowed to drive while impaired or to go to ones job under
the influence.

The opposite of intoxication is sober, God is telling us to be of sound mind
to be sober.

Peace O0

Bender

I agree with this. Especially because of the words "their harm is more than their benefit". Take marijuana for example. Marijuana is used medically in many instances and is an extremely beneficial plant. But too much ingestion will indeed cloud the mind. Not sure about any other plants like peyote, etc. and I'm absolutely sure hard drugs are out of the picture completely. That's common sense, in my opinion.

The thing I'd like to know is, if we are to avoid it, does it mean absolutely completely? I ask this because I am moving to South Korea soon, except if God wills. If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse. To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.

I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"

So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.

Peace.

Salaam inq,

Here is my personal understanding I don't have to tell you that you have to think for yourself and then follow what you think is best.

BLUE I don't think so.

From 2219 we learn that there is also benefit in it.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

590 tells us that we have to avoid sajtaan.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.

What does sajtaan do with this tools? We can learn this from 591
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?

I believe if we use intoxicants and gambling for the benefit in them (as per 2219) then it's ok but if we use them knowing that it wil lead to what is described in 591 then it's totally not ok.

So I think alcohol and drugs for medicines is ok. But if you use it to get drunk/high then I believe it's not ok.
For gambling I can give the next example If there are 3 brothers and there is some dirty job to do then I think it's ok to draw lots. But if you go to gamble in hope to double your fortune then I think it's not ok.

RED yes

GREEN same answer as on the blue part. I think there is no moderation, one knows for what he/she is using it.

BROWN It does not say intoxicated. But "a state of mind where one does not know what he/she says". That does not mean only intoxicants (for example medicines that make you high) but also when you are > or rotfl then you for sure are going to ask for things in your sallaat what you are going to regret later when you get back to normal.

The South Korea thing. Some time ago there was a program on Dutch telivision. Some families from Holland went to some very primitive families in Africa to live with them for some time. One of those African families welcomed them with a bucket of blood which they had to drink rotfl It was their way to let them know that they were very welcome, so I guess you are very lucky with a alcoholic drink D

Salaam,
Bender

ps you thought you were the only one who can write many words and say very little ;D

Bender

Please read what Abdul-Hadi and Bender said. I agree with them fully, alhamduliAllah.

Salaam bro,

What kind of Khamr did you have when you wrote this hmm

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

Salaam Bender.
I think the best translation is one is one you didn't list among your alternatives
4) 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and gambling...

Salaam Magnus,

I knew you would not like my translations

With a strict (alcoholic) definition of khamr, there are clear edges to what the verse means and doesn't mean.

With a more extensive understanding of khamr, the need has now arises to define what is and isn't something "what covers the mind" or whatever this now means. Do we now examine every single psychoactive substance and determine whether it's "khamr", and just according to whom exactly, if opinions on particular effects of various drugs differ - in other words do we allow for the fact that drugs affect different people differently? Do we accept that certain plants that God has created are evil, and that people who want to grow and consume these plants for their psychoactive properties are criminals who should be punished? Is this the "common sense" Inquisitrini referred to when it came to "hard drugs"?
I firmly maintain that God indeed has created not only human brain chemistry but also both the opium poppy and the coca plant, and that anyone who wishes to cultivate these particular plants or any other plants as crops for human consumption has every right to do so according to God's law.

RED I believe they are not evil of themselves, but they can be used for evil things, just like a knife.
BLUE No absolutely not. There is no punishment mentioned in The Quran for using them. So the one who wants to drink alcohol to get drunk or the one who wants to take drugs to get high or the one who wants to gamble to get rich, it's all up to them, no punishment involved.
GREEN sure everyone has every right to do what he/she wishes as long as he does not harm a other with it, but Allah is very clear about the negative things of those things. And anyone knows for him/herself the purpose of using those things.

Salaam,
Bender

inquisitivetrini

Wow thanks guys for answering all of my questions! Lol.

Released Thanks for your advice! I'll definitely keep it in mind on my trip. Thank you for the warm wishes as well. sun

mmKhan I totally understand what you mean. Thanks so much for your insight.

Bender

ps you thought you were the only one who can write many words and say very little ;D

Lol! I thought what you said was quite intriguing. I didn't mind at all.

BROWN It does not say intoxicated. But "a state of mind where one does not know what he/she says". That does not mean only intoxicants (for example medicines that make you high) but also when you are >( or rotfl then you for sure are going to ask for things in your sallaat what you are going to regret later when you get back to normal.

Hmm. Good point. Thank you.

The South Korea thing. Some time ago there was a program on Dutch telivision. Some families from Holland went to some very primitive families in Africa to live with them for some time. One of those African families welcomed them with a bucket of blood which they had to drink rotfl It was their way to let them know that they were very welcome, so I guess you are very lucky with a alcoholic drink D

hypno....rotfl Wow. Indeed!

Thanks again everyone for the insight. Peace and blessings!

-Inq

mmkhan

mmKhan I totally understand what you mean. Thanks so much for your insight.

Salaam Inq,

AlhamduliAllah, you are very welcome handshake

May Allah bless you and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan

Bender

Wow thanks guys for answering all of my questions! Lol.

Released Thanks for your advice! I'll definitely keep it in mind on my trip. Thank you for the warm wishes as well. sun

mmKhan I totally understand what you mean. Thanks so much for your insight.

Bender
Lol! I thought what you said was quite intriguing. I didn't mind at all.

Hmm. Good point. Thank you.

hypno....rotfl Wow. Indeed!

Thanks again everyone for the insight. Peace and blessings!

-Inq

Salaam Inq,

handshake

Salaam,
Bender

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

4,43, implies that some believers do drink alcohol. God acknowledges this by reminding them not to pray after drinking alcohol because they won't know what they are saying. God also tells us to avoid alcohol. That is not a command. It has not been made haram. It is a challenge, like 'lower your gaze' instead of looking at attractive men or women.

I don't understand why everyone is making a meal of this.

IAMOP

Peace dawngorgeous,

The reason for the meal of this, is that 443 is using the word 'sukara' (intoxication). Khamr causes sukara but khamr and sukara are two different things. The state of sukara is useless for quranic purposes like for example a person who has just come out of anesthesia after a major surgery is in no position to read or understand quran they are in 'sukara'. Well, get ready because you're about to eat a main course here eat.

This verse DOES NOT SAY "when you have been drinking khamr, stay away from the quran". There is a big difference. We are ALLOWED to be in the state of 'sukara'. That does not say whether we are to be using 'khamr'.

Then we know that in 591 we have
O you who believe! (KHAMR) and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

And the REASON for this command to shun is that
The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of (KHAMR) and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

Keep in mind the verse that follows
On those who believe and do good there is no blame for what they eat, when they are careful (of their duty) and believe and do good deeds, then they are careful (of their duty) and believe, then they are careful (of their duty) and do good (to others), and Allah loves those who do good (to others).

So we can see that IF and ONLY IF the question of Satan causing enmity and hatred to spring is not an issue, then there is no blame on those who believe and do good for what they eat, WHEN they guard themselves against evil.

And again we can refer to
And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication (SAKARAN) and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

So we derive KHAMR from this stuff. Which can BUT ALSO can not cause the state of sukara/intoxication. And we see this EXPLAINED IN DETAIL in the following verse
They ask you about KHAMR and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and some benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess ." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses that you might give thought.

This splits KHAMR into two things. One use of KHAMR (i.e. ingesting it) results in the state of being intoxicated/sukara and this can result in a great harm. The other usage of KHAMR results in some benefit (e.g. as an antiseptic, wound dressing, for chemistry/extracting essences from other herbs that require alcohol-type solvents). Likewise, we can eat the grapes & dates for goodness (some benefit) or we can collect the date stones, and turn them into bullets and blow each other's brains out with them (great harm).