Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Salaamun alaikum Dr,
You denounce isa, maryam as man or woman; and likewise all other prophets too, as persons. Then enlighten me with your understranding from quran on the following
Allah, musa, ibrahim and the rest of the names we find in the Book. I am eagerly waiting to hear all your analogies of all the names which according to you, if I have understood you correct, are personified in The Book, Al Kitab! You can give your explanations on one at a time, though not about all in the same post.DrFazl, remember that Allah says the stories in the Quraan are 'ibratun lil ulil albaab' (12/111). 'Ibraat' means 'archetypes', i.e. higher examples of living truths. All these personalities lived as human beings, no doubt, but Allah chose to capture them into a book which displays the highest truths about humankind.
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Salaamun alaikum Dr
DrFazl, remember that Allah says the stories in the Quraan are 'ibratun lil ulil albaab' (12/111). 'Ibraat' means 'archetypes', i.e. higher examples of living truths. All these personalities lived as human beings, no doubt, but Allah chose to capture them into a book which displays the highest truths about humankind.
mquran peace,
They are true news from Allah ; not stories as you say.
What is your understanding of the phrase "higher examples of living truths". You accept all those personalities lived as human beings without doubt. I agree with you. But bro idolfree does not accept them as humanbeings and has serious doubts regarding the same.012111
It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.drfazl
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Peace Dr. Fazl,
What does it matter if they really existed or not? Is it not the guidance that is most important? Here, Kyle has displayed a method of interpretation that reveals deeper guidance than a face-value historical account, yet you ridicule his approach. What is the goal of this position?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
TayGuidance is all important I agree. I am not opposing anyone's interpretation; for each has his way, is what i believe. Coming to the point you raised "What does it matter if they(Isa and Jesus) really existed or not? Is it not the guidance that is most important? "
Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly. For, they are a fallen society to whom a prophet is sent of their own form as the greatest sign from allah for real; their wisdom is at a low; for them to beleive in Allah's Wisdom, they need to see the reality of it through demonstration from their own kind for their enlightenment so that hey see the Light, Al Noor; it is essential guidance, a helping hand, for a society whose wisdom then was in a position that they can only believe in what they see through their eyes alone. So Isa can not be an abstract entity but a real person; his society spoken of in quran is real and not ghost society(it is not ridiculing anyone but a simple expression); but existed!
The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not as an analogy to something mystic. You yourselves are believers in knowledge(visible part such as reading and writing) prinicipally to get at the wisdom(unseen, analogy)! Here I draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision; and with the best education standards of the highest degree. Brothers like you, if try explaining that we, human beings are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy to the same, still I will oppose it humbly, unless you satisfy me. Yet you might ask me what my inner aim is as to opposing to anything that you say? Simple! Satisfy me if you have substance free from conjecture! Let us march our way to Wisdom; We are Free Minds still. Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)
drfazl
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Peace Dr. Fazl,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Just to be clear, I do not endorse nor deny the view in question. I do, however, see the wisdom in it.
Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly.
I disagree. If Isa was in fact a man sent with a message, then let's think about the statistics of what it is you're implying. Of all the people who have ever heard of Isa ibn Maryam throught the ages, what percentage would you say had firsthand knowledge of his existence? How many people can a person living 2000 years ago reach? Yet his wisdom lives on in the hearts of billions. So the life of the man is not important, but the message is. The guidance has remained, whether or not the man ever existed.
The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not an analogy to something mystic.
That's fine and noble. But no one is denying the reality of our own existence.
Here i draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision;
I do not understand what you're getting at. At first glance, it seems you're being sarcastic. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Brothers like you, if try explaining that we are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy, still i will oppose it humbly.
I'm not sure where you're drawing your assumptions from, but surely it is not from my posts. Please elaborate.
Yet you may ask what is my inner aim to opposing to anything that you say?
I would not. Opposition is fine, and it's refining. Tone is what I oppose.
Shed the pride is the way to Wisdom
Agreed, likewise.
We are Free Minds still! Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)!
Insulting and then saying "no offense" is clever, but not humble.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
drfazlIsa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly.
Tay I disagree. If Isa was in fact a man sent with a message, then let's think about the statistics of what it is you're implying. Of all the people who have ever heard of Isa ibn Maryam throught the ages, what percentage would you say had firsthand knowledge of his existence? How many people can a person living 2000 years ago reach?
My point is not these at all. I am least interested in the statistics.
Tay Yet his wisdom lives on in the hearts of billions.
I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah; unable even to understand that they could perform too, the same signs Isa showed, or even more than what Isa showed. For, Wisdom has no boundaries that it shall make our lives eternally and unbelievably eventful.
Tay So the life of the man is not important, but the message is. The guidance has remained, whether or not the man ever existed.
Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed; if not the man called isa existed there is no message either; for it is not a story but a history of Isa, the man that existed in the form and shape as you and me are existing today; allah hasn't lied when he was speaking about Isa being a man like you. Only if you believe Isa was a man, you can follow him and hope to seek more and more of wisdom from Allah than he, Isa s.a.w.
drfazl The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not an analogy to something mystic.
Tay That's fine and noble. But no one is denying the reality of our own existence.
I am done as far this segment is concerned and I thank God.
drfazl Here i draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision;
Tay I do not understand what you're getting at. At first glance, it seems you're being sarcastic. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are highly knowledgeable trying to get a glance at wisdom; and are of some standard for high appreciation when compared to the pagans, no doubt at all. No sarcasm.
drfazl Brothers like you, if try explaining that we are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy, still i will oppose it humbly.
Tay I'm not sure where you're drawing your assumptions from, but surely it is not from my posts. Please elaborate.
Not from your posts
drfazl Yet you may ask what is my inner aim to opposing to anything that you say?
Tay I would not. Opposition is fine, and it's refining. Tone is what I oppose.
Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
drfazl Shed the pride is the way to Wisdom
Tay Agreed, likewise.
Agreed, Likewise.
drfazl We are Free Minds still! Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)!
Tay Insulting and then saying "no offense" is clever, but not humble.
Hmmmm... Sorry.
May peace be upon you,
drfazl -
Peace drfazl,
My point is not these at all. I am least interested in the statistics.
Let's backtrack a bit. You stated, "Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly."
So if Isa was not a real person, the guidance attributed to him is irrelevant. But I ask you, how can you confirm that Jesus really existed? How can anyone who has lived the last 1900+ years? Yet here we are discussing his guidance.
I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah;
I agree to disagree, as I will not take the liberty in assuming the worst. Wearing a symbol, to me, does not denote a lack of wisdom. Wisdom is judged by it's results, and in general, these symbol carriers are taking care of their families, honoring their agreements, and living in fear of a recompense. The symbol is and has long been a cultural phenomenon.
Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed;
I disagree. The message is believed if it is displayed well and sought. How else would you explain the phenomenon of mythology, fables, parables, etc.? The moral of the story is what is important, and the moral is always found by the seeking mind. The truth does not change.
You and I were not in the desert caves when Muhammad was granted Divine revelation. We were not there when he shared the message. We were not there when the Qur'an was compiled. We don't know the names of the compilers. We know very little, firsthand. Yet we believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Why is that? It is because the wisdom shines through the pages of the book. It does not need to be tied to any physical reality. The wisdom transcends physical reality.
Allah hasn't lied when he was speaking about Isa being a man like you.
Agreed.
You are highly knowledgeable trying to get a glance at wisdom; and are of some standard for high appreciation when compared to the pagans, no doubt at all. No sarcasm.
I thank you for the kind words, but I disagree. I am merely a humble student, trying to find the balance between logic and spirituality, mind and heart, reason and passion. These are the tools Allah granted us to find the truth.
Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
How could I possibly differentiate between one's emotion and expression? Is expression not the representation of emotion?
Peace,
Tay -
Salams all,
Allow me to add my thoughts, if I may.
A basic belief in Islam is that Allah has created mankind and the laws to which it must abide in order to enjoy success in this life and the hereafter. He has sent a prophet to every nation with this guidance (obviously a physical human being, how else could the message be relayed to other human beings), and all of them either were killed or enjoyed temporary success until the message was corrupted, until finally the Prophet Muhammad (p) arrived.
Like any heroes, there is guidance to be gained at looking at how those individuals lived and fought (similar to our modern day heroes)... but to claim Maryam who has been described as a great woman, under the care of the Zakariyyah, bore a child named Isa... to claim despite all these verses that "Maryam is the mind" is absolute insanity (i.e. losing touch with reality). A person who can turn even maryam into just a "mind," their brains can possibly turn anything real into something surreal.
wassalam
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Salaam Shuaib,
Kyle and I are aware that people will not always grasp these archetypes. I was always of the idea that 'al-islam' was so patriarchal, but now I realize it is not with the feminine and masculine types described by Kyle. I would not say that these descriptions and depictions are surreal, rather another level of understanding that may or may not transcend the usual.
Joe
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salam (i wont take your name since i consider it to be a rather odd handle for a muslim),
by definition, those ideas are surreal (whether you call them that or not). the rejection of the physical for the immaterial. at every turn i have seen basic physical realities turned into surreal mockeries by certain people here. it's one thing to say that you are appreciating another level of understanding in ADDITION to what is understood... but the methods in which you and others have explained these beliefs demonstrate the REJECTION of one for the other.. it's not IN ADDITION. it's a rejection of reality for surreal concepts.
wassalam
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Peace All,
It's clear that some, or perhaps most, need to view the references to past personalties as literal, historical context. It is also clear that some do not need to see it that way.
To each his own, I say. Whether it is literal or symbolic, the guidance remains. The balanced way, I would think, is to look at both sides of the coin. That way, you get a double-dose of guidance.
But why must people insist that their view is the right view, or that any differing view is the wrong view? Tack on a bit of disguised patronism and you have the ingredients for a war.
Peace,
Tay -
salams,
i have seen this comment on the forum several times... to each his own. To you your belief and to me mine.
This is what Muslims say to non-believers.. not to each other! Muslims all need to be on the same page, at least on the very basic elements of our deen.
The fact of the matter is, brother Tay, whether you realize it or not.. that traditionalists have indeed done much harm to Islam. Their extreme literal interpretations and lack of reasoning are the direct reason why Muslims suffer today.
As a reaction, unfortunately, it seems some Muslims want to go to the other extreme... not taking anything literally, and believing EVERYTHING is an anology. EVERYTHING is an allegory.
The fact of the matter is that human beings received Allah's guidance through Prophets who ALSO happened to be human beings just like us except that they received wahi. This is a BASIC tenet of Islam that all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe. the Quran DOES refer to past individual human beings such as the Prophets, Maryam, Pharoah, etc... past nations aad thamood etc. The Quran was sent to people (us) through people (Prophets) in order to guide humankind.
AFTER acceptance of this fact, if someone thinks they have additional insights, then by all means they can provide them. But whatever "insights" I have seen, are not in addition... they are in rejection of these facts.
This extreme level of surrealism is not supported by the Quran, and is potentially damaging to Islam.
wassalam
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Let's backtrack a bit. You stated, "Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly."
So if Isa was not a real person, the guidance attributed to him is irrelevant. But I ask you, how can you confirm that Jesus really existed? How can anyone who has lived the last 1900+ years? Yet here we are discussing his guidance.I have to say again, we humans are not abstract; so the guidance abstract, shall have to come from the mouth of a messenger in the same human form and shape. Let us remember at this point the answer that Allah says to those who ask, ' why malayikas not be sent as messengers?' Allah says, 'If the malayikas were to live on the earth, He would have sent malayikas as messengers.'
last 1900+ years not interested in the statistics. let it be 19 billions of years ago; I consider it not in the least. We are interested in the substance of Isa as man and his Guidance to the Abstract.I am not bothered about Jesus. His name never even was mentioned by Allah. So we stick to Isa as a human messenger.
drfazl I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah;
Tay I agree to disagree, as I will not take the liberty in assuming the worst. Wearing a symbol, to me, does not denote a lack of wisdom. Wisdom is judged by it's results, and in general, these symbol carriers are taking care of their families, honoring their agreements, and living in fear of a recompense. The symbol is and has long been a cultural phenomenon.
Thanks for agreeing to disagree that the symbol of man say, Isa in form and shape as humanbeings was very much there living with the people then, talking wisdom to them and guiding them towards unseen, the abastract.
drfazl Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed;
Tay I disagree. The message is believed if it is displayed well and sought. How else would you explain the phenomenon of mythology, fables, parables, etc.? The moral of the story is what is important, and the moral is always found by the seeking mind. The truth does not change.
I honour your disagreement for there is no compulsion in Islam. Yet to answer you is my duty. The message is believed if it is displayed and well sought. watch your words there displayed - demonstration in form and shape; audio and visual in reality in the form of Isa displaying by the leave of allah all the ayats of HIM as described in 3 110 ? The phenomenon of mythology, and so on is to be displayed for the commons to believe.
Tay You and I were not in the desert caves when Muhammad was granted Divine revelation. We were not there when he shared the message. We were not there when the Qur'an was compiled. We don't know the names of the compilers. We know very little, firsthand. Yet we believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Why is that? It is because the wisdom shines through the pages of the book. It does not need to be tied to any physical reality. The wisdom transcends physical reality.
I believe in the Sura Muhammad, chapter 47 in the Book, a reality that is happening in the world as perfect examples. I do not know the cave in the desert that you are referring to, for, muhammad was not linked to that in that verse in The Book. The Divine revelation shall come to you today as Quran, from allah direct for, what you have with you is The Book not Quran according to Allah. What you have written is far away from what I conceive of the reality. Not mythical anymore.
drfazl Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
How could I possibly differentiate between one's emotion and expression? Is expression not the representation of emotion?
Expression is display of the reality, the emotion, the abstract wisdom! Reality and Abstract must stay close together for us to receive the message, from the Messenger convincingly!
Peace,
drfazl -
Peace Shuaib,
I have seen this comment on the forum several times... to each his own. To you your belief and to me mine.
This is what Muslims say to non-believers.. not to each other! Muslims all need to be on the same page, at least on the very basic elements of our deen.I understand your point, and where I once agreed, I no longer do. The very basic elements are the exact elements that no one seems to agree on. The only agreement I have witnessed across the board, from forum to forum, author to author, scholar to scholar, is belief in Allah, the Last day, and the good actions. Everything else, it seems, is utterly disagreed upon.
What's up with that? If it was meant to be clear-cut, indisputable truth, it would have been, and the disagreement would have been minimized to details.
As a reaction, unfortunately, it seems some Muslims want to go to the other extreme... not taking anything literally, and believing EVERYTHING is an anology. EVERYTHING is an allegory.
I believe you are over-generalizing here as I have yet to witness anyone with such beliefs, unless you can provide an example.
The fact of the matter is that human beings received Allah's guidance through Prophets who ALSO happened to be human beings just like us except that they received wahi. This is a BASIC tenet of Islam that all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe. the Quran DOES refer to past individual human beings such as the Prophets, Maryam, Pharoah, etc... past nations aad thamood etc. The Quran was sent to people (us) through people (Prophets) in order to guide humankind.
Where do you draw the line, bro? Are we required to believe that Abraham cut birds into pieces and called them, and they returned intact? That ants were afraid of Solomon and discussed his power? That people slept for 100 years? That Jonah spent months in the belly of a giant fish?
We're told in 37 that there is fact and there is allegory. We are not given any indicators to differentiate.
We're told in 1736 not to accept any info without verifying it.
My point is, I agree with you that the Prophets existed. I've come to this conclusion. But I don't tell anyone else what conclusion they SHOULD come to. That is not my place.
Peace,
Tay -
salams tay,
Where do you draw the line, bro? Are we required to believe that Abraham cut birds into pieces and called them, and they returned intact? That ants were afraid of Solomon and discussed his power? That people slept for 100 years? That Jonah spent months in the belly of a giant fish?
Come on now, the discussion is about something very basic and you are talking about something totally different.
It's one thing to talk about there being a human being who had received wahi and came to guide people... it's another thing to talk about supposed miracles. "Miracles" are things that defy basic laws of science or reason... they are things that require a "leap of faith" to believe in. That is a whole separate discussion and a whole separate issue.
What we are talking about here is something so basic, something that does not defy science or reason... it's the denial of a historical record as mentioned in the Quran. It's the corruption of that historical record into a surreal interpretation.
I believe you are over-generalizing here as I have yet to witness anyone with such beliefs, unless you can provide an example.
Ok well it's not like i've examined anyone's ENTIRE belief system. But there are several ppl and I will not name names, that have at every feasible opportunity, turned real things into surreal concepts.
What's up with that? If it was meant to be clear-cut, indisputable truth, it would have been, and the disagreement would have been minimized to details
Bro, there are MANY ways to botch up a good thing. It's not that hard, really. In fact, if it were easy you could bet something was wrong. The cause of such major disagreements is PEOPLE, not the message.
This is not necessarily the sign of decay however... on the contrary, it may be the sign of rebirth for Muslims. For centuries, there has been no discussion... the arguments were left to scholars, on random insignificant items. But very very recently, the minds of the Muslims are awakening and are beginning to process the information critically. This may really be the first generation where this is going on on a large scale basis. Inshallah with more time the efforts will coalesce and understandings will converge to the truth.
wassalam
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Peace Shuaib,
Come on now, the discussion is about something very basic and you are talking about something totally different.
It's one thing to talk about there being a human being who had received wahi and came to guide people... it's another thing to talk about supposed miracles.I understand the difference, and I'm glad you pointed this out. The reason for the reference is that you mentioned we are required to believe in the Prophets. My question was, how far does this requirement reach? I'm not being argumentative here. This dialogue has a purpose.
It's the corruption of that historical record into a surreal interpretation.
Corruption would be changing the text. Interpretation is offering an alternative view.
Bro, there are MANY ways to botch up a good thing. It's not that hard, really.
I agree.
In fact, if it were easy you could bet something was wrong.
Not according to the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us that it is easy to understand, that it's verses are clear.
The cause of such major disagreements is PEOPLE, not the message.
Ah, the crux of the matter! I've read the Qur'an and I get a totally different understanding than many whom I discuss it with. Is this my fault, or is this part of the design?
I think it is the latter. There are very few concepts that muslims agree upon. I have come across only 3. Interestingly, 1736 tells us that these 3 are all that really matter.
This is not necessarily the sign of decay however... on the contrary, it may be the sign of rebirth for Muslims. For centuries, there has been no discussion... the arguments were left to scholars, on random insignificant items. But very very recently, the minds of the Muslims are awakening and are beginning to process the information critically. This may really be the first generation where this is going on on a large scale basis. Inshallah with more time the efforts will coalesce and understandings will converge to the truth.
Very well said, bro. Keep up the good work.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace drfazl,
I have to say again, we humans are not abstract; so the guidance abstract, shall have to come from the mouth of a messenger in the same human form and shape.
Saying so again and again does not make it true. You would have to establish this concept with supporting info to reach your goal.
We are interested in the substance of Isa as man and his Guidance to the Abstract.
I've never met the substance.
Thanks for agreeing to disagree that the symbol of man say, Isa in form and shape as humanbeings was very much there living with the people then, talking wisdom to them and guiding them towards unseen, the abastract.
Nice try, but that is not what I agreed to. Perhaps another glance might reveal what I said.
The message is believed if it is displayed and well sought. watch your words there displayed
My apologies. I was hoping you would understand what I meant by the context rather than run with the definition of one word out of context.
The phenomenon of mythology, and so on is to be displayed for the commons to believe.
I see, so there is no wisdom outside of scripture?
peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you MQ,
Kyle, well done with this, brother. Remember also that 41/53 tells us that God's ayaat in the horizons and OUR SELVES will make clear that the Quran is ultimate truth. Maryam and Isa are 'ayaat' in the Quran and so therefore must reflect in our selves as well. Makes perfect sense.
Isa and Maryam DO achieve the garden in this life as well (23/50) and Isaa does overcome his enemies in Bani Israil (61/14)
Please also tell us what you think of Isa's 'ahmad' prophecy (61/6).
Thank you for the kind words brother
Regarding the prophecy of Isa regarding "ahmad", my understanding is as follows. I take "muhammad/ahmad" to be a description of the one who comes after "isa". When one comes into this new frame of mind (Isa), after having seperated from tradition(Mary withdrew from family), the next level is that of appreciation (HAMD). In my understanding, "ahmad" and "muhammad" are derivatives of the same person, ANY person who achieves this level.