Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Peace All,
It's clear that some, or perhaps most, need to view the references to past personalties as literal, historical context. It is also clear that some do not need to see it that way.
To each his own, I say. Whether it is literal or symbolic, the guidance remains. The balanced way, I would think, is to look at both sides of the coin. That way, you get a double-dose of guidance.
But why must people insist that their view is the right view, or that any differing view is the wrong view? Tack on a bit of disguised patronism and you have the ingredients for a war.
Peace,
Tay -
salams,
i have seen this comment on the forum several times... to each his own. To you your belief and to me mine.
This is what Muslims say to non-believers.. not to each other! Muslims all need to be on the same page, at least on the very basic elements of our deen.
The fact of the matter is, brother Tay, whether you realize it or not.. that traditionalists have indeed done much harm to Islam. Their extreme literal interpretations and lack of reasoning are the direct reason why Muslims suffer today.
As a reaction, unfortunately, it seems some Muslims want to go to the other extreme... not taking anything literally, and believing EVERYTHING is an anology. EVERYTHING is an allegory.
The fact of the matter is that human beings received Allah's guidance through Prophets who ALSO happened to be human beings just like us except that they received wahi. This is a BASIC tenet of Islam that all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe. the Quran DOES refer to past individual human beings such as the Prophets, Maryam, Pharoah, etc... past nations aad thamood etc. The Quran was sent to people (us) through people (Prophets) in order to guide humankind.
AFTER acceptance of this fact, if someone thinks they have additional insights, then by all means they can provide them. But whatever "insights" I have seen, are not in addition... they are in rejection of these facts.
This extreme level of surrealism is not supported by the Quran, and is potentially damaging to Islam.
wassalam
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Let's backtrack a bit. You stated, "Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly."
So if Isa was not a real person, the guidance attributed to him is irrelevant. But I ask you, how can you confirm that Jesus really existed? How can anyone who has lived the last 1900+ years? Yet here we are discussing his guidance.I have to say again, we humans are not abstract; so the guidance abstract, shall have to come from the mouth of a messenger in the same human form and shape. Let us remember at this point the answer that Allah says to those who ask, ' why malayikas not be sent as messengers?' Allah says, 'If the malayikas were to live on the earth, He would have sent malayikas as messengers.'
last 1900+ years not interested in the statistics. let it be 19 billions of years ago; I consider it not in the least. We are interested in the substance of Isa as man and his Guidance to the Abstract.I am not bothered about Jesus. His name never even was mentioned by Allah. So we stick to Isa as a human messenger.
drfazl I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah;
Tay I agree to disagree, as I will not take the liberty in assuming the worst. Wearing a symbol, to me, does not denote a lack of wisdom. Wisdom is judged by it's results, and in general, these symbol carriers are taking care of their families, honoring their agreements, and living in fear of a recompense. The symbol is and has long been a cultural phenomenon.
Thanks for agreeing to disagree that the symbol of man say, Isa in form and shape as humanbeings was very much there living with the people then, talking wisdom to them and guiding them towards unseen, the abastract.
drfazl Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed;
Tay I disagree. The message is believed if it is displayed well and sought. How else would you explain the phenomenon of mythology, fables, parables, etc.? The moral of the story is what is important, and the moral is always found by the seeking mind. The truth does not change.
I honour your disagreement for there is no compulsion in Islam. Yet to answer you is my duty. The message is believed if it is displayed and well sought. watch your words there displayed - demonstration in form and shape; audio and visual in reality in the form of Isa displaying by the leave of allah all the ayats of HIM as described in 3 110 ? The phenomenon of mythology, and so on is to be displayed for the commons to believe.
Tay You and I were not in the desert caves when Muhammad was granted Divine revelation. We were not there when he shared the message. We were not there when the Qur'an was compiled. We don't know the names of the compilers. We know very little, firsthand. Yet we believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Why is that? It is because the wisdom shines through the pages of the book. It does not need to be tied to any physical reality. The wisdom transcends physical reality.
I believe in the Sura Muhammad, chapter 47 in the Book, a reality that is happening in the world as perfect examples. I do not know the cave in the desert that you are referring to, for, muhammad was not linked to that in that verse in The Book. The Divine revelation shall come to you today as Quran, from allah direct for, what you have with you is The Book not Quran according to Allah. What you have written is far away from what I conceive of the reality. Not mythical anymore.
drfazl Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
How could I possibly differentiate between one's emotion and expression? Is expression not the representation of emotion?
Expression is display of the reality, the emotion, the abstract wisdom! Reality and Abstract must stay close together for us to receive the message, from the Messenger convincingly!
Peace,
drfazl -
Peace Shuaib,
I have seen this comment on the forum several times... to each his own. To you your belief and to me mine.
This is what Muslims say to non-believers.. not to each other! Muslims all need to be on the same page, at least on the very basic elements of our deen.I understand your point, and where I once agreed, I no longer do. The very basic elements are the exact elements that no one seems to agree on. The only agreement I have witnessed across the board, from forum to forum, author to author, scholar to scholar, is belief in Allah, the Last day, and the good actions. Everything else, it seems, is utterly disagreed upon.
What's up with that? If it was meant to be clear-cut, indisputable truth, it would have been, and the disagreement would have been minimized to details.
As a reaction, unfortunately, it seems some Muslims want to go to the other extreme... not taking anything literally, and believing EVERYTHING is an anology. EVERYTHING is an allegory.
I believe you are over-generalizing here as I have yet to witness anyone with such beliefs, unless you can provide an example.
The fact of the matter is that human beings received Allah's guidance through Prophets who ALSO happened to be human beings just like us except that they received wahi. This is a BASIC tenet of Islam that all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe. the Quran DOES refer to past individual human beings such as the Prophets, Maryam, Pharoah, etc... past nations aad thamood etc. The Quran was sent to people (us) through people (Prophets) in order to guide humankind.
Where do you draw the line, bro? Are we required to believe that Abraham cut birds into pieces and called them, and they returned intact? That ants were afraid of Solomon and discussed his power? That people slept for 100 years? That Jonah spent months in the belly of a giant fish?
We're told in 37 that there is fact and there is allegory. We are not given any indicators to differentiate.
We're told in 1736 not to accept any info without verifying it.
My point is, I agree with you that the Prophets existed. I've come to this conclusion. But I don't tell anyone else what conclusion they SHOULD come to. That is not my place.
Peace,
Tay -
salams tay,
Where do you draw the line, bro? Are we required to believe that Abraham cut birds into pieces and called them, and they returned intact? That ants were afraid of Solomon and discussed his power? That people slept for 100 years? That Jonah spent months in the belly of a giant fish?
Come on now, the discussion is about something very basic and you are talking about something totally different.
It's one thing to talk about there being a human being who had received wahi and came to guide people... it's another thing to talk about supposed miracles. "Miracles" are things that defy basic laws of science or reason... they are things that require a "leap of faith" to believe in. That is a whole separate discussion and a whole separate issue.
What we are talking about here is something so basic, something that does not defy science or reason... it's the denial of a historical record as mentioned in the Quran. It's the corruption of that historical record into a surreal interpretation.
I believe you are over-generalizing here as I have yet to witness anyone with such beliefs, unless you can provide an example.
Ok well it's not like i've examined anyone's ENTIRE belief system. But there are several ppl and I will not name names, that have at every feasible opportunity, turned real things into surreal concepts.
What's up with that? If it was meant to be clear-cut, indisputable truth, it would have been, and the disagreement would have been minimized to details
Bro, there are MANY ways to botch up a good thing. It's not that hard, really. In fact, if it were easy you could bet something was wrong. The cause of such major disagreements is PEOPLE, not the message.
This is not necessarily the sign of decay however... on the contrary, it may be the sign of rebirth for Muslims. For centuries, there has been no discussion... the arguments were left to scholars, on random insignificant items. But very very recently, the minds of the Muslims are awakening and are beginning to process the information critically. This may really be the first generation where this is going on on a large scale basis. Inshallah with more time the efforts will coalesce and understandings will converge to the truth.
wassalam
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Peace Shuaib,
Come on now, the discussion is about something very basic and you are talking about something totally different.
It's one thing to talk about there being a human being who had received wahi and came to guide people... it's another thing to talk about supposed miracles.I understand the difference, and I'm glad you pointed this out. The reason for the reference is that you mentioned we are required to believe in the Prophets. My question was, how far does this requirement reach? I'm not being argumentative here. This dialogue has a purpose.
It's the corruption of that historical record into a surreal interpretation.
Corruption would be changing the text. Interpretation is offering an alternative view.
Bro, there are MANY ways to botch up a good thing. It's not that hard, really.
I agree.
In fact, if it were easy you could bet something was wrong.
Not according to the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us that it is easy to understand, that it's verses are clear.
The cause of such major disagreements is PEOPLE, not the message.
Ah, the crux of the matter! I've read the Qur'an and I get a totally different understanding than many whom I discuss it with. Is this my fault, or is this part of the design?
I think it is the latter. There are very few concepts that muslims agree upon. I have come across only 3. Interestingly, 1736 tells us that these 3 are all that really matter.
This is not necessarily the sign of decay however... on the contrary, it may be the sign of rebirth for Muslims. For centuries, there has been no discussion... the arguments were left to scholars, on random insignificant items. But very very recently, the minds of the Muslims are awakening and are beginning to process the information critically. This may really be the first generation where this is going on on a large scale basis. Inshallah with more time the efforts will coalesce and understandings will converge to the truth.
Very well said, bro. Keep up the good work.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace drfazl,
I have to say again, we humans are not abstract; so the guidance abstract, shall have to come from the mouth of a messenger in the same human form and shape.
Saying so again and again does not make it true. You would have to establish this concept with supporting info to reach your goal.
We are interested in the substance of Isa as man and his Guidance to the Abstract.
I've never met the substance.
Thanks for agreeing to disagree that the symbol of man say, Isa in form and shape as humanbeings was very much there living with the people then, talking wisdom to them and guiding them towards unseen, the abastract.
Nice try, but that is not what I agreed to. Perhaps another glance might reveal what I said.
The message is believed if it is displayed and well sought. watch your words there displayed
My apologies. I was hoping you would understand what I meant by the context rather than run with the definition of one word out of context.
The phenomenon of mythology, and so on is to be displayed for the commons to believe.
I see, so there is no wisdom outside of scripture?
peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you MQ,
Kyle, well done with this, brother. Remember also that 41/53 tells us that God's ayaat in the horizons and OUR SELVES will make clear that the Quran is ultimate truth. Maryam and Isa are 'ayaat' in the Quran and so therefore must reflect in our selves as well. Makes perfect sense.
Isa and Maryam DO achieve the garden in this life as well (23/50) and Isaa does overcome his enemies in Bani Israil (61/14)
Please also tell us what you think of Isa's 'ahmad' prophecy (61/6).
Thank you for the kind words brother
Regarding the prophecy of Isa regarding "ahmad", my understanding is as follows. I take "muhammad/ahmad" to be a description of the one who comes after "isa". When one comes into this new frame of mind (Isa), after having seperated from tradition(Mary withdrew from family), the next level is that of appreciation (HAMD). In my understanding, "ahmad" and "muhammad" are derivatives of the same person, ANY person who achieves this level.
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Peace be upon you all,
The God tells us NOT TO go after that which we have no knowledge. I have NO KNOWLEDGE of ANY of these men and women being spoken of in these stories. Am I instructed to say that Jesus was a real living human when I have NO WAY AT ALL to verify that? D For anyone to come here and say YES, Jesus was real, or NO Jesus was not real, is foolish and it is bearing false witness, because you were not PRESENT. If people were debating this around the time of the Council of Nicene, CERTAINLY we cannot think we have better FACTS.
So the logical approach is to look for the GUIDANCE/LESSON in the stories. When we consider that the God tells us that those who purify the MIND(nafs) succeeds, and those that corupt it fail, then it woul dbe logical to expect some guidance on the processes of the MIND(nafs). And we get EXACTLY THAT, in the stories of the malaika and Iblis, as well as the story of Isa, son of Mariam.
Let those who wish to think that real humans are born without father, or do miracles continue thier path without knowledge, the one who submits to the God follows the path that can be verified, and we can certainly verify how we must SEPERATE ourselves from tradition in order to give birth to the TRUTH. We cannot verify that this is a literal event, so why debate about it?
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Salaamun alaikum Kyle,
Can't agree with u there, man. The Quran clearly says
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots. (12.101)
The word used for stories is 'anba' which tells us that these stories actually happened. Of course, we don't need to go to history to prove that. Our acting out the sunna of the messengers is enough.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Can't agree with u there, man.
Not yet D but I'll keep planting seeds D
The Quran clearly says
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots. (12.101)
Let me ask you this MQ, if this story is UNSEEN, then how did people SEE IT at that time? D
I agree that it is UNSEEN. I state that it was UNSEEN then and UNSEEN now because we are talking about processes of the MIND(nafs).
The word used for stories is 'anba' which tells us that these stories actually happened.
Yes, they DID happen, they DO happen, and they WILL happen. The God system NEVER changes and people minds will continue to work according to these UNSEEN processes. There were people who gave birth to the WORD(Isa) a long time ago, today , and will tommorrow, but it will reamain UNSEEN, yet verifyable. D
Of course, we don't need to go to history to prove that. Our acting out the sunna of the messengers is enough.
Its not that we don't need to, it is that we CANNOT. The God does not require us to however because we are not to go after that which we have no knowledge. He tells us to seek knowledge so that we can become appreciators(muhammad).
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salam idolfree,
I can tell that my words will have absolutely no impact on you, and that I will be wasting time.. but let me say briefly, you are being a surrealist through and through.
that's a nice try though, to claim you are doing it because you didn't know Isa (as). Because the fact is, you didn't see the wahi come to the Prophet. You did not meet the prophet nor did you see the original manuscript and confirm with your eyes that the Quran we have is indeed the same one in the museum. You never heard the Prophet's voice, never heard or saw the khulifa-rashidoon... have you ever even seen Arabia? Ever seen the pharoah or Egypt?
Note, no one is talking about IGNORING the guidance/lessons in the stories as you imply. WE ALL agree on that, so don't try to throw out that as a red herring...
The question is not about guidance/lessons in the stories. The question is the REJECTION OF REALITY that you are committing.
But there is such a thing called evidence... personal experience is NOT the only form of knowledge. And the other important source of evidence is the Quran... and from the CLEAR ARABIC of the Quran, I have stated the facts. Pure and simple. REALITY... the Quran DOES comment on it. It's foolishness to take the historical records as documented in the Quran and turn them into surreal concepts on the predication that "Well I didn't see it happen." Especially since the meanings you bring out are totally outlandish... to say maryam means mind because nafs is a feminine word is the most bizarre form of logic I have encountered.. in fact it's not even worthy of being referred to as logic.
wassalam
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Peace All,
Isn?t The Nabi simply in English The informer? I don?t see any reference to informed by God in this name.
The message in the Qur'aan for all mankind was not revealed because of the corruption by the liars (kathibun) and ungrateful rejecters (kafirun) from among previous peoples of the message sent to them. They only attempted to corrupt the message which was preserved in the hearts of those committed. They wrote their own book and claimed it was from God. They hid the message.None can change the words of God. The previous revelations were national not universal as is the Qur'aan, thus the reason for the good news.
The traditionalist have not literally translated the Qur'aan, they first perverted the meanings and then translated literally. The Qur'aan says it is clear, apparent, obvious, plain and easy. I suggest that a correct literal translation will not leave any reader deficient.
I agree with drfazl as to the personality called Jesus whose history bears only a passing resemblance to Isa in the histories narrated in the Book.
BTW, is drfazl the same distinguished Dr. Fazlur Rahman, author of such works as ?Islam? (1966)? If so, Sir, I am privileged to have the opportunity to exchange ideas with you. If not, it is still a privilege ) . Thanks
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Salaam Kyle D
Peace be upon you MQ,
Can't agree with u there, man.
Not yet D but I'll keep planting seeds D
Hehe, you're most welcome to. The healthy seeds will sprout healthy trees and bear fruits. You've planted many healthy seeds in the past, I remember.
Let me ask you this MQ, if this story is UNSEEN, then how did people SEE IT at that time? D
I agree that it is UNSEEN. I state that it was UNSEEN then and UNSEEN now because we are talking about processes of the MIND(nafs).Ok, I see what you mean here. All 'ayaat'/signs are 'fil anfus' (in our minds, as you put it) as 41/53 says. However, brother, they're also 'fil afaaq' (in our horizons) like the story of Yusuf which shows us how to climb the structures of power.
Yes, they DID happen, they DO happen, and they WILL happen. The God system NEVER changes and people minds will continue to work according to these UNSEEN processes. There were people who gave birth to the WORD(Isa) a long time ago, today , and will tommorrow, but it will reamain UNSEEN, yet verifyable. D
Yes, agreed. Only I would add, they also happen in reality.
Its not that we don't need to, it is that we CANNOT. The God does not require us to however because we are not to go after that which we have no knowledge. He tells us to seek knowledge so that we can become appreciators(muhammad)
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
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Salaam mquran,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
Never would a human being, whom Allah has blessed with the Scripture, Wisdom and Prophethood, say to people, ?Be servants of me instead of Allah.? Instead he would say, ?Become men of God (rabbaniyyeena) by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture and the teachings you learn there from.? (379)
Peace
Marie -
peace idolfree1,
Related to the statement
The way I inderstand it is that we should not make up things or assumptions about what we don't know. It also tells us that GOD has the ultimate knowledge. So, if GOD tells us that there was a Jesus and that he was born to woman that was not touched by man, we have to accept as such because GOD knows all and GOD says so and we are obligated to believe not only in GOD, but also in what GOD says.Hussein
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Peace be upon you MQ and all,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
No, it won't be found so easily, there is a test involved
Marie, my statement does not even come close to implying taking a prophet for worship, in fact, I have stated that 'muhammadun" is a description of ANYONE who reaches that level, so that response was not accurate. In fact, one who reaches the level of "muhammadun" spreads the word and is a man/woman of the God.
Brother Hussein, we cannot just read a book that claims to be from the Source of Creation and just blindly follow it. We have to have REASON to have faith. WHich of the "prophets" do you have proof of thier exsistence?
I cannot prove a single one of them. I also cannot DISprove any of them. So what does my salaat ORDER for me? To seek the portion that CAN be verified so that my faith is not blind, and that is the MORAL LESSON learned through the SYMBOLISM which the God does not shy from giving.I know it is hard because we were taught to believe in these human beings, but logically it just does not work. My daughter was taught last year in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America. History cannot be trusted as much as most people wish it could. Especially when we are delaing with topics of power as these are. There is too much at stake, so everyone has HIS (own) STORY.
We are not to follow that which we have no knowledge. If you sit back and remain true to yourself, you will see what I am saying is true, if not , please present an argument other than "because God said so", because until you verify the information, you don't even know it is from the God.