Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Salaam Kyle D
Peace be upon you MQ,
Can't agree with u there, man.
Not yet D but I'll keep planting seeds D
Hehe, you're most welcome to. The healthy seeds will sprout healthy trees and bear fruits. You've planted many healthy seeds in the past, I remember.
Let me ask you this MQ, if this story is UNSEEN, then how did people SEE IT at that time? D
I agree that it is UNSEEN. I state that it was UNSEEN then and UNSEEN now because we are talking about processes of the MIND(nafs).Ok, I see what you mean here. All 'ayaat'/signs are 'fil anfus' (in our minds, as you put it) as 41/53 says. However, brother, they're also 'fil afaaq' (in our horizons) like the story of Yusuf which shows us how to climb the structures of power.
Yes, they DID happen, they DO happen, and they WILL happen. The God system NEVER changes and people minds will continue to work according to these UNSEEN processes. There were people who gave birth to the WORD(Isa) a long time ago, today , and will tommorrow, but it will reamain UNSEEN, yet verifyable. D
Yes, agreed. Only I would add, they also happen in reality.
Its not that we don't need to, it is that we CANNOT. The God does not require us to however because we are not to go after that which we have no knowledge. He tells us to seek knowledge so that we can become appreciators(muhammad)
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
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Salaam mquran,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
Never would a human being, whom Allah has blessed with the Scripture, Wisdom and Prophethood, say to people, ?Be servants of me instead of Allah.? Instead he would say, ?Become men of God (rabbaniyyeena) by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture and the teachings you learn there from.? (379)
Peace
Marie -
peace idolfree1,
Related to the statement
The way I inderstand it is that we should not make up things or assumptions about what we don't know. It also tells us that GOD has the ultimate knowledge. So, if GOD tells us that there was a Jesus and that he was born to woman that was not touched by man, we have to accept as such because GOD knows all and GOD says so and we are obligated to believe not only in GOD, but also in what GOD says.Hussein
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Peace be upon you MQ and all,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
No, it won't be found so easily, there is a test involved
Marie, my statement does not even come close to implying taking a prophet for worship, in fact, I have stated that 'muhammadun" is a description of ANYONE who reaches that level, so that response was not accurate. In fact, one who reaches the level of "muhammadun" spreads the word and is a man/woman of the God.
Brother Hussein, we cannot just read a book that claims to be from the Source of Creation and just blindly follow it. We have to have REASON to have faith. WHich of the "prophets" do you have proof of thier exsistence?
I cannot prove a single one of them. I also cannot DISprove any of them. So what does my salaat ORDER for me? To seek the portion that CAN be verified so that my faith is not blind, and that is the MORAL LESSON learned through the SYMBOLISM which the God does not shy from giving.I know it is hard because we were taught to believe in these human beings, but logically it just does not work. My daughter was taught last year in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America. History cannot be trusted as much as most people wish it could. Especially when we are delaing with topics of power as these are. There is too much at stake, so everyone has HIS (own) STORY.
We are not to follow that which we have no knowledge. If you sit back and remain true to yourself, you will see what I am saying is true, if not , please present an argument other than "because God said so", because until you verify the information, you don't even know it is from the God.
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Peace Idol,
We are not to follow that which we have no knowledge. If you sit back and remain true to yourself, you will see what I am saying is true, if not , please present an argument other than "because God said so", because until you verify the information, you don't even know it is from the God.
Excellent!!!
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Peace Kyle,
we cannot just read a book that claims to be from the Source of Creation and just blindly follow it. We have to have REASON to have faith. WHich of the "prophets" do you have proof of thier exsistence?
I cannot prove a single one of them. I also cannot DISprove any of them. So what does my salaat ORDER for me? To seek the portion that CAN be verified so that my faith is not blind, and that is the MORAL LESSON learned through the SYMBOLISM which the God does not shy from giving.You've summed up in one paragraph what I've been trying to say in numerous posts. Great job, bro.
Peace,
Tay -
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Salam Idolfree,
I guess that you and I look at the Qur'an from two different angles and therefore we look at what the Qur'an tells differenty. I believe in the one GOD (I think that we share this belief). I believe that the Qur'an is the word of GOD in it's entirety. I do beleive that there are some statements in the Qur'an that are not yet rightly understood and there are others that are. I also believe that the best understanding of the Qur'an is the simplest rather than the most complicated. I disagree with the ones that look at the most esoteric meanings of arabic words. I don't claim to have proof of the stories. I also think that your analysis is too complicated that it defies GOD's saying that the Qur'an is CLEAR. Your theory also cannot be proven.
So I guess that we agree to disagree. May GOD show us both the right path because we both aim for it, and may he forgive our mistakes and ignorance.
Salam
Hussein
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salams all,
i personally think it's amazing that so many people are taking some of these ideas so seriously.
i think it's an extremely scary concept. it is quite tough to have a constructive discussion with someone who claims that islamic beliefs do not have to be logical. this is the constant battle with traditionalist muslims.
but THIS. this is an impossible battle because it is someone who has redefinied logic itself. no meanings of words are sacred. the mere fact that maryam is a feminine word and nafs is a feminine word is enough for him/them to make the terms interchangeable. such a thought process is absolutely unfathomable. and with such pseudo-"logic" you can clearly see how nothing is sacred or safe. not even muhammad (saw) the prophet of Islam the last messenger.
wassalam
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Peace all,
- And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice, there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
The substitution of His words by our own words non based on the context and the definition given by the quran in order to explain it is conjecture.
The quran is clear, fully detailled and it is its best commentary and explains itself.
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And messengers of whom We have narrated (qasasna) to thou from before, and messengers We have not narrated (naqsushu) to thou; and God spoke to Moses directly.
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In their stories (qasasihim ) is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
The Lessons and stories are two distinct things and not intercgangeable. We read "IN their stories is a lesson" instead of "their stories is a lesson".
- These are the towns We relate (naqussu) to thou FROM/some of their stories; their messengers had come to them with proofs, but they would not believe in what they had denied before. It is such that God stamps on the hearts of the rejecters.
In 7101 we read "some of their stories are related to us", that implies these towns have other stories in the past, in the same way for 4164.
- That is from the news of the towns which We relate (naqussu) to you; some are still standing and some have been wiped-out.
Coul we deduce that the towns which have been wiped-out do not exist because we can find no trace of them on earth?
The word of ourLord has been completed with truth and justice.
Does 1736 imply that we shouldn't uphold/follow what we have no knowledge of in the quran or outside the quran?
The following verses contains orders that each one of us should follow during his life, I selected only the verses where the singular form of you is used (thou)
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Do not make with God another god, or thou will find yourself disgraced, abandoned.
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And your Lord decreed that YOU shall not serve except Him, and do good to YOUR parents. When one of them or both of them reaches old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor raise your voice at them, but say to them a kind saying.
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And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and Say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was small.?
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And give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer; and do not waste excessively.
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And do not make your hand stingy by holding it to your neck, nor shall you lay it fully open so you become in despair and regret.
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And do not say/follow/uphold (taqfu) what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
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And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the Earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
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All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
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That is from what your Lord has inspired to thou of the wisdom. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting.
What I understand from 1736 in the light of the context don't assert nothing before being perfectly sure.
For example to testify with a false testimony or provide a false information or to say a lie such you heard and you did not hear and you saw and you did not see, you know and you don't know "All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord", this is why "For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for."The verb "taquf" which has the same root with "taqfu" can mean to say.
The God commands us in 496 "O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it."
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The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
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If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to thou, then ask those who have been studying the Scripture from before thou. The truth has come to thou from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
Should we have to investigate the truth which is from our Lord?
Marie
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
I guess that you and I look at the Qur'an from two different angles and therefore we look at what the Qur'an tells differenty.
Yes, the job of "cleaning the house" is to remove some of the "angles" so that we all look from the same angle. One thin I noticed above is that you have the word "quran' in capital letters. Why do you take the word reading(quran) to be a proper noun?
I believe in the one GOD (I think that we share this belief).
Absolutely D
I believe that the Qur'an is the word of GOD in it's entirety.
The words of the God never run out, the oceans would dry up if they were ink. This reading(quran) contains all that we need for guidance in the unfolding book of life(al kitaab).
I do beleive that there are some statements in the Qur'an that are not yet rightly understood and there are others that are. I also believe that the best understanding of the Qur'an is the simplest rather than the most complicated. I disagree with the ones that look at the most esoteric meanings of arabic words. I don't claim to have proof of the stories. I also think that your analysis is too complicated that it defies GOD's saying that the Qur'an is CLEAR.
The terms "easy" and "hard" are subjective, new things always seem hard at first. I find my position to be very easy, it removes a lot of burden of trying to reson out things I have no way of knowing.
Your theory also cannot be proven.
Please tell me which part cannot be proven, I will prove it.
So I guess that we agree to disagree. May GOD show us both the right path because we both aim for it, and may he forgive our mistakes and ignorance.
I would say it is too early for "agree to disagree" , but if that is your wish, I do not force anything on you. Peace to you.
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Peace
What does this verse "imply"?
2573 ? And who, whenever they are reminded of even the Revelations of their Lord, DO NOT FALL AT THEM DEAF AND BLIND (with deaf and blind acceptance).
I propose this
They ponder on the signs and proofs in the Qur'aan that teach us some things of the nature of God and His control and power and His immutable laws, become convinced and take action upon this conviction. They will search for the truth of the claims and challenges in the Book and ponder on them in the same manner. I cannot propose to one unfamiliar with the Qur'aan that it is the infallible word of God and not bring proof. If one approaches the Book with a pure heart seeking guidance he does not leave behind his intellect and discernment. The claims and challenges in the Book must be investigated and the proofs of these claims must hold up to all scrutiny.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Your posts get further and further away from showing proof, only emotion. That should give you a clue that you may be missing something.
you can clearly see how nothing is sacred or safe. not even muhammad (saw) the prophet of Islam the last messenger.
There is no verse that states that "muhammad" is the last messenger. You have to understand these simple principles before you can even understand what I and others are trying to say.
No matter how much you don't "like" it, you still need to bring some PROOF of your position.
In fact, please tell me your understanding of Isa, son of Mariam.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
The Lessons and stories are two distinct things and not intercgangeable. We read "IN their stories is a lesson" instead of "their stories is a lesson".
- These are the towns We relate (naqussu) to thou FROM/some of their stories; their messengers had come to them with proofs, but they would not believe in what they had denied before. It is such that God stamps on the hearts of the rejecters.
In 7101 we read "some of their stories are related to us", that implies these towns have other stories in the past, in the same way for 4164.
Yes, the lesson is IN the stories, but the STORIES THEMSELVES are given to us symbolically, unless you believe that someone literally split a sea in two, was burned alive but remained in tact, brought a clay bird to life, helaed the blind/sick/dead, etc. There is no proof that comes to your eyes and ears that will verify such beliefs. However, the LESSONS contained in those stories, which is where we should be focused according to the verse you gave, CAN be verified.
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11100. That is from the news of the towns which We relate (naqussu) to you; some are still standing and some have been wiped-out.Coul we deduce that the towns which have been wiped-out do not exist because we can find no trace of them on earth?
We can VERIFY that corruption destroys ALL TOWNS, then and now.
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
2573 ? And who, whenever they are reminded of even the Revelations of their Lord, DO NOT FALL AT THEM DEAF AND BLIND (with deaf and blind acceptance).
Yes, good verse you have brought as a reminder. I hope it will become as clear for us all.
Will we continue to just blindly believe what is in the darkness, or will we have faith based on knowledge which brings light so that we can verify our faith?
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Peace Kyle,
Peace be upon you MQ and all,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
No, it won't be found so easily, there is a test involved D
Marie, my statement does not even come close to implying taking a prophet for worship, In fact, one who reaches the level of "muhammadun" spreads the word and is a man/woman of the God.
Sorry for the confusion, this is only what I meant
"Become men of God (rabbaniyyeena) by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture and the teachings you learn there from.?
I respect your extrapolation between Muhammad and Rabbaniy but rabbaniy is well explained in the light of the verse above 379.
Become men of God (rabbaniyyeena) by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture doesn't imply become Mohammad by spreading .., it is only conjecture.
Rabbaniy is rabbaniy, Mohammad is Mohammad and Isa is Isa.
I Will nor respond to your post about the stories od the previous messengers and towns, because we have not the same understanding of the verse 1736.
to Testify with a false testimony, provide a false information, to say a lie such you heard and you did not hear, you saw and you did not see, you know and you don't know "All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord", this is why "For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for."
You didn't get what I meant by my question about the verse 11100
Peace
Marie -
Peace be upon you Marie,
The one who is "muhammadun" will do all of these things. Even if you think "muhammad" is the name of this prophet, we are to take the messengers as an example, so we should do EVERYTHING that they did.
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Peace Kyle,
Peace be upon you Marie,
The one who is "muhammadun" will do all of these things.
Mohammad is the messenger of Allah and his great mission is detailled in the light of the quran.
Even if you think "muhammad" is the name of this prophet, we are to take the messengers as an example, so we should do EVERYTHING that they did.
As I have said to brother Joe, Mohammad is proper noon and had several meaning.
I'm not sure if we can do EVERYTHING that the prophet Mohammad did.
Some verses is only adressed to him for example, some verses in the chapter 33 )
Peace
Marie -
salam idolfree,
you talk about bringing proof but the problem is you have negated the whole concept of proof.
when you make random meaningless connections and call THAT proof.. then you have negated the entire concept and possibility of a meaningful discussion. when you claim that merely because 2 words are feminine, they are interchangeable purely because it suits your intentions... that is frankly, corrupt.
when i said nothing is sacred, you went and proved me RIGHT by saying
There is no verse that states that "muhammad" is the last messenger. You have to understand these simple principles before you can even understand what I and others are trying to say.
It's amazing to me how arrogantly you continue to say, be patient, etc etc etc... as if you are atop the mountain of enlightenment looking down upon us. Bro, get a grip. Perhaps you are the one who needs to think about it more?
- Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal (FINAL) of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
Now your bizarre reasoning is leading you to say Muhammad is not the last messenger. Frankly this borders on blasphemy.
But I am sure you will be totally ready with some bizarre scheme. Just as Maryam and nafs are feminine and you totally interchanged those words to suit your meanings, i am sure you can pull another rabbit out of your hat again while calmly saying patience brother patience you will understand one day.
honestly, i am not trying to carry out any sort of discussion with you because that is an utter waste of time... i am only pointing out your assault on the Arabic language and assault on logic itself to OTHERS. and i dont need to say much in order to point these facts out... i am just shocked others take you so seriously. it's sad and scary. i repeat, no verse of the quran and no logical argument is safe from your pen apparently.
wassalalm
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Peace be upon you Marie,
idolfree1 wrote
Peace be upon you Marie,The one who is "muhammadun" will do all of these things.
Mohammad is the messenger of Allah and his great mission is detailled in the light of the quran.
Yes, I agree "muhammad/appreciator" is the messenger of the God, and the mission behind and before him is deatiled in the reading.
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Even if you think "muhammad" is the name of this prophet, we are to take the messengers as an example, so we should do EVERYTHING that they did.As I have said to brother Joe, Mohammad is proper noon and had several meaning.
I disagree that "muhammad" is a proper noun, and I cannot see how you can take "muhammad" as a proper noun, but make "ahmad" not proper,especially when the "prophecy of Isa" was than his description shall be "ahmadu".
I'm not sure if we can do EVERYTHING that the prophet Mohammad did.
Isn't "muhammad" a man like us? Or is he a super hero?
Some verses is only adressed to him for example, some verses in the chapter 33
Which ones can't we do?