Terribly Confused !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Peace, good logic.
I disagree with your 5 points.
That is not what " Islam" in Qoran means or requires. That is man made laws.
Islam to me is not a religion. It is a state of mind"Submission" to the creator.
If you go to the majority of Muslims throughout the world and ask them the tenets of Islam, they'll tell you exactly what I did - those five points will be identified as their "pillars". And yes, it would be recognized as a religion due to the establishment of belief and worship of a deity. As soon as a philosophy involves the worship of someone else, particularly a supernatural power or authority (god), it becomes classified as a religion.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Zulf.
Yes, such a deity doesn't make much sense. That which is called God, is not unfair. An unfair God doesn't make sense. It's a stupid idea altogether. Of course one wouldn't believe in an unfair God. Religions have made all sorts of ridiculous images of God. But religions don't have monopoly on God, and just because those images are illogical doesn't mean there is no God.
And we should also not take for granted that man knows exactly what is fair and what is unfair... just because man has his like and dislikes. What is unpleasant is not necessarily bad, and what is pleasant is not necessarily good. Man is never far from arrogance and over-confidence.... i.e. ignorance...I never said that there's no god. I can't dismiss the concept of divinity altogether, because it is too broad of a subject. There are many different interpretations of what qualifies a person (or entity) to be considered a "god", and that makes it difficult to make the determination that there is no god. Depending on the philosophical perspective of the theist, there are many different gods, and there are many different types of gods. It all depends on who you're talking to.
Question Who determines what is right and what is wrong?
Here's a very keen projection of divinity, based on theologically instituted laws and mandates Is something good/bad because God decrees that it's good/bad, or does God decree it to be good/bad because it actually is? In other words, is God above the law? Does God do things because the actions are just and righteous, or are the actions considered just and righteous because God does them? What's your position on this?
Lastly, if the concepts of God and divinity can be determined to be illogical and irrational, then why should we embrace these concepts? If we can't reasonably prove that God exists, then why should we believe in him? What's the point?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Javed.
What sort of proof from God would satisfy you about his existence?
Any type of verifiable proof would be great! But, to start, I'd like a definitive concept of proof regarding Allah's existence as he's identified in the Qur'aan. Since Muslims generally claim that the Qur'aan is the written word of God, then the descriptions of God within the book should be correct. Therefore, God should fit the following characteristics
- Anthropomorphic (resembling man in appearance or description)
- All-knowing (or, at least knowing more than anyone else, e.g. "best knower"
- All-powerful (or, at least more powerful than anything else in existence, e.g. being able to control existence)
- All-wise
- Omnipresent (existent everywhere and in everything)
- Omnibenevolent (perfectly good, merciful and righteous)
- Unlike anything/anyone else
If you can display these characteristics on one person or entity, then of course I'll have no choice but to accept the Qur'aanic depiction of Allah. Can you do this? Of course not, and that's why I wouldn't really make it so difficult. laugh
If we simplify it, a person claiming to be Allah (God) would be good enough for me, as long as this person can specifically tell me how he/she defines the word (e.g. "god" and what qualifies him/her to wear this title.
For example, in the late 1930s, a man named Elijah Mohammed began propagating the idea that a man named W.D. Fard Mohammed was "Allah in Person". When challenged to explain his position, he clarified what he claimed God to be a very intelligent, knowledgeable Black man who came among the people with power and authority. Did Mr. W.D. Fard Mohammed fit this description? Indeed, he absolutely did! So, based on this estimation, he could reasonably be recognized as Allah, since he fit all of the descriptions necessary to fill the position outlined in his representative's religious tenets. The same can be said for His Imperial Majesty (HIM) Emperor Haile Salassie I being called "God". Did he fit the qualifications mandated by his followers to be considered divine? Yes, he did! So, we can reasonably conclude that both of those men, in accordance with what their followers taught concerning God (e.g. Allah and Jah), were divine.
If you want to present evidence for the Islamic god Allah, in accordance with what the Qur'aan teaches about him, then find someone (or something) that fits all of the characteristics identified concerning Allah in his book, the Qur'aan. Or, an even simpler task Find someone who accurately manifests all 99 of his "divine attributes". If you can do this, then you've correctly identified your God, and I'll be forced to conclude that, based on the Qur'aanic depiction of Allah, he is indeed real and existent.
Fair enough?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Zulf.
I never said that there's no god. I can't dismiss the concept of divinity altogether, because it is too broad of a subject. There are many different interpretations of what qualifies a person (or entity) to be considered a "god", and that makes it difficult to make the determination that there is no god. Depending on the philosophical perspective of the theist, there are many different gods, and there are many different types of gods. It all depends on who you're talking to.
Peace Ahmed, and thanks for your reply!
I tend to agree. I would stretch it from "many" to "as many as there are people".Question Who determines what is right and what is wrong?
Here's a very keen projection of divinity, based on theologically instituted laws and mandates Is something good/bad because God decrees that it's good/bad, or does God decree it to be good/bad because it actually is? In other words, is God above the law? Does God do things because the actions are just and righteous, or are the actions considered just and righteous because God does them? What's your position on this?
My answer No-one, or rather, everyone think they do.
My position on what you have put forth is
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We would be wise to ponder what we mean when we say 'good' and 'bad'. I think these terms must have a context in order to make sense. Something cannot be good or bad just because.
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I don't consider God like a judge who issues a set of laws as per his/her ideas or inclinations. I find this a very mechanical image of the "situation"... In my mind, God is not like this or that certain phenomenon that we know from our world (like a judge and his law). So I don't consider the question about God being above the law or not as valid in that I don't think we can separate God from law from reality (truth). Not one of them came before the other. So no, God is not above the law, but is not bound by law either. But hey, what law are we talking about here? Law of nature, law of good n bad?
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I don't see God as an actor who 'does' something which then is considered or declared as good or bad. This is the case when human beings do things in this world. I don't see God as anything like a human being. I do not put God in the practical context of a human (even with extended "powers".
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So I think that good is anything that goes along with reality, while bad is something that works against the nature of reality. Of course, these words and this explanation may be considered too fuzzy or whishy-washy, but I don't think I can express my ideas more clearly than this at this moment in time.
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These philosophical and logical approaches/examination of God and "his" context appear to me to be totally invalid. Again, to me, God is not a thing, a being like those in Creation/Universe. I think that is we think of God like this, like some super-power-being, then we are closer to describing a character from the Marvel comics, than to describe that which is called God.
Lastly, if the concepts of God and divinity can be determined to be illogical and irrational, then why should we embrace these concepts? If we can't reasonably prove that God exists, then why should we believe in him? What's the point?
We should not. If we have an image of God, and it is clearly illogical and irrational, then the chance is that it is wrong. God, by definition (anything else would be mad), is not illogical, irrational. Such gods are rightly dismissed as fairy-tales. But why do we just work hard at showing the irrationality of various images of God, instead of trying to find some approach to God that is rational and logical? One false image of God doesn't negate the true one.
We should not embrace irrational concepts. We should not embrace anything that doesn't make sense to us. But we of course need to behave positively in society, no matter what we embrace or abstain from embracing. Hurting other is never ok. Even those who hurt others don't want to be hurt, so I think everyone can agree on that. Unfortunately, religions are mostly irrational, emotional and based on fears of the limited human mind.
What does "prove God exists" mean?
Cheers
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Dear Ahmed
Fair enough indeed!Any type of verifiable proof would be great!
So ultimately you(or anyone else for that matter) have come up with is just a little more sophisticated version of Moses desire to see God with his own eyes.And thats exactly what I was leading to.The quran has rejected this by telling us that even if they see with their senses they will not believe(those who have made up their minds).For me the concept of God arises from my own weaknesses, my utter helplessness in this life, my knowledge that I have no role in my own creation or those of my loved ones and the deep understanding that this beautiful life is not of my own making.
Peace
Javed -
Peace, Zulf.
Your interpretation of this concept appears completely rational, based on how I understand it. There are many people who do great things without believing in any type of divine figure. So, if "heaven" is what we're striving for, is it possible to attain this state of being (or thinking) without embracing any type of theology?
Many, if not most, people say that God rewards those who believe in him. In turn, those who don't believe, regardless of how good they may be on a social level, as pertains to conduct and civilization, will be thrown into "hell", a state of torment and destruction. Based on your interpretation, assuming that God exists, will he accept or reward people who do good things, even if they don't believe? Or, do you feel that believing is a prerequisite for being accepted by God (assuming that he exists)?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace, Zulf.
Your interpretation of this concept appears completely rational, based on how I understand it. There are many people who do great things without believing in any type of divine figure. So, if "heaven" is what we're striving for, is it possible to attain this state of being (or thinking) without embracing any type of theology?
Many, if not most, people say that God rewards those who believe in him. In turn, those who don't believe, regardless of how good they may be on a social level, as pertains to conduct and civilization, will be thrown into "hell", a state of torment and destruction. Based on your interpretation, assuming that God exists, will he accept or reward people who do good things, even if they don't believe? Or, do you feel that believing is a prerequisite for being accepted by God (assuming that he exists)?
First of all, I would like to put forth that I'm aware that I only have limited understanding of reality, so what I share here is just my current perception of things, expressed in limiting words.
The dilemma you put forth is a classic one, and I understand the issue at hand. To be honest, right now, I'm actually not sure what 'believing' means. Probably it is bigger than the common definition. To me, 'believing' has something to do with being able to 'sense/get/perceive/see' certain aspects of the world/life that actually are real and true.... as opposed to mythology/stories/superstition. I'm not a big fan of 'faith' as in something you adopt because it is something you are supposed to 'believe' in when you belong to a certain group.
In my mind, I currently think that our only job here in this life is to improve our inner selves=break free from the slavery of the limiting and destructive parts of our minds=get closer to God. I think that our job here in life life is in one sense totally selfish, as the only important thing is to "purify" our selves=open our "eyes". But while doing this, we will as a consequence, naturally, be able to help others, and we will want to do only good things. So selfish in this sense is a per-requisite to help/guide also others. It's like in aircraft, first you put the oxygen mask on yourself, THEN you help others.
So I actually don't think that the purpose of this life is to do good. Doing good is a byproduct of being aligned with Gods "way/direction of life". The purpose is to "wake up", "cleanse yourself" and strengthen your bond/connection to God.
What the situation is for those who claim to not believe in God, but still do good deeds... I really don't know. But I do know that there can for sure be many different reasons for whatever we do. Some people may do good because they can "feel" God and are hence compelled by their inner drive to do good thing, while they at the same time cannot swallow all the fairy-tales that the religions want us to believe in. So are these people actually following God? Perhaps some are and some aren't. Also, some people will do good deeds to ease some inner pain... just like some people drink or take drugs. Some people make their whole identity about doing good and helping others. What if they NEED other to be worse off than they are? What of they NEED people to help? What would happen if there no longer were people that needed help? There are such people too! So do they really do good deeds for the sake of other or for the sake of themselves. I don't think things are so simple, or black and white. And again, this is another reason why we can only really know about ourselves (if even that), and should never ever judge anyone else.
I think that most people somehow assume that good deeds is the purpose of this life. Good deeds may be part of the equation, but maybe not the central thing. What are good deeds anyway? All that is pleasant is not necessarily good for us, and vice versa. I think that everyone can tell good from bad when they are "in their senses". If one just slow down, becomes a bit still within, then one can FEEL what is good and bad... or rather, what goes along with life, or against it. When we rely to much on our intellect, then we often go astray... with destructive things as a result. I think it is in the bible it says something like "be still, and know that I am God". The point here is that we can KNOW God.. but only if we are still..... still, soft, peaceful within. The point is also that we don't need other people to tell us about God.. we only need to go within and FEEL God. No-one can show us God, and this is why God cannot be proven. We can know God from within ourselves, it has to start here. This requires time and conscious desire/intention, but it works. It many times seems to me that the closer you got to religion, the farther away you get from God.
I don't see God as a character that will judge us when the trial period is over. Instead we are either moving closer to God=reality, or we are moving away. Later on, we will find ourselves in a situation accordingly, by necessity. We reap what we sow. If we decide to go into the swamp, we may get wet and stuck... not because the park ranger issue this punishment, but simply because this is the direction we went. The judgment is "built in" into our actions and intentions. If we go into a dark room, it will be dark, by cause and effect. Everything has a cause and effect. So also our "judgment". We may pray for and desire to see reality, whatever it is, or we may just spend our life is distractions without direction.
There is so much more to this world than what natural science talk about. Heck, even science is talking about things we'd never consider scientific unless we were told that it was scientists that came up with it.
I think God is not a divine figure, God is not supernatural, God is not out there, God is not a person, God is not separate. God is not like creation. A 2D character cannot grasp a 3D thing. This is why I say we look in the wrong place when we look for God. Unless we look within, discarding what religions mostly say, we'll have great difficulty approaching reality and truth. It may even be a disadvantage to have to refer to God with a certain word. God is more like an endless potential than a crystallized specific thing. Anyhow, it cannot be described in words.
However, God is by definition not unfair. Either we have the wrong image of God, or we don't understand what 'fair' is.... or probably both.
I hope I have answered your question to some extent. Perhaps I should have condensed it somewhat...
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Peace, good logic.
- The shahaada (testimony) must be given in the Arabic language, as if God only understands this language.
- The salaat (connection/prayer) must be recited in Arabic, advocating a national or cultural religion.
- The zakaat (tax?) must be paid according to an Arabized system of Islamic institution, not a global one.
- The siyyaam (abstanation) must be taken during the Arabic month of ramadhaan, based on an Arabized calendar.
- The hajj (feast/pilgrimage) is established in the national country of Arabia.
In other words, Islam has been converted into a national religion, with a national god - not a universal one. And, from a henotheistic standpoint, he can be seen as being greater than the gods of other (non-Arabic) nations; he's not necessarily the only god in the universe, and he may not even be the only god under his regional jurisdiction. He's simply the highest (greatest) one.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace Bro Ahmad Bilal
It is truely correct to say that like Judaism Islam also has been converted into a man made religion or so called national religion..... but that is the fault of the wicked men....who have traded the scripture for anything.....
But I am not quite sure about there being no proof of God's existence......the Quran
1.A Scientific Miracle
2.A Mathematically Impossible to Imitate BookAnd the divine Creation...all are proof enough....
So what do you think!!!!
The Lord tells us not to believe anything without a proof andgives amples of proofs in the Holy Book......
Please let me know ur views......
Peace
Harun