an opportunity?

Wakas

peace bro,

she's changing her timing atleast for breaking the fast. I start eating about 40-50 minutes after the 'maghrib'/sunset which is when everyone else breaks their fast at.

Can you clarify when you end your fast? I end my fast at evening twilight.

If one follows al quran, fasting till evening twilight is prescribed, NOT till dark night. Please see 3637 for proof that night/evening/layl contains some light

And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they become in darkness.

The word used in 2187 is also 'layl'.

Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2442
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1212

Wakas

zenje

Salaam Wakas,

Okay, let's go from here.

IMHO 3637 is not proof that night contains some light.

3637 And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon they are in darkness.

Infact, I think this verse describes night to be quite the opposite. Night = daylight removed. Night = darkness.

Can you clarify when you end your fast? I end my fast at evening twilight.

I choose to go until night, as I understand night.

What Ayman said from one of those threads about 1778 is what I thought was interesting.

You shall hold the contact-method at the waning of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
There is a description of sunset here. Not used for 2185
If you were to fast and hold the contact method, would you eat before the Salat?... or after?

I'll pause for now, awaiting to hear from you. )

Peace!

Wakas

peace brother Zein,

3637 And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon (faitha) they are in darkness.

From this verse, the "it" refers to "the night", thus directly implying "the night" has daylight in it, which is removed. This verse is clear unless I'm missing something. Furthermore, 'faitha' imples a ordered sequence of events, please check its other occurrences.

Re 1778

There is a description of sunset here. Not used for 2185

I dont understand what you mean here.

If you were to fast and hold the contact method, would you eat before the Salat?... or after?

My instinct says before (assuming one is starting the evening slw at evening twilight / sunset). I can see your point however. Mind you, if abstinence included not speaking, then this point becomes invalid.

In any case, if 'layl'=night (pitch black), what's the point in saying 'darkness of the night/layl', wouldn't that be stating the obvious?

Wakas

marie

Peace Br's Wakas, Zein,

peace brother Zein,

3637 And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from it, whereupon (faitha) they are in darkness.

From this verse, the "it" refers to "the night", thus directly implying "the night" has daylight in it, which is removed. This verse is clear unless I'm missing something. Furthermore, 'faitha' imples a ordered sequence of events, please check its other occurrences.

Re 1778

I share the same view and add this verse

Have you not seen that God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?

Marie

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then continue your fasts until the night and do not associate with your wives while you are devoted in the MASAAJID.

The fast should end at NIGHT.

WHAT IS NIGHT?

WA- AGHT.ASHA LAYL -HAA WA- AKHRAJA D.UH.AA -HAA 7929

And He made DARK the NIGHT thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. 7929

Night is DARKNESS and not SUNSET

Bukhari 3175 Umar Bin Al Khattab

Allah's Apostle said, "When NIGHT falls from THIS SIDE and the DAY vanishes from THIS SIDE and the SUN SETS, then the fasting person should BREAK his FAST."

WHAT THE MUSLIMS FOLLOW IS HADITH

If the fast was to end at SUNSET then the best word would have been MAGHRIB ASH SHAMS and not LAYL as used in the following verse

H.ATTAA 'IDHAA BALAGHA MAGHRIB ASH- SHAMS WAJADA -HAA TAGHRUB FE cAYN H.AMI'AH WA- WAJADA cINDA -HAA QAWM(AN) QULNAA YAA DHAA AL- QARNAIN 'IMMAA 'AN TUcADHDHIB WA- 'IMMAA 'AN TATTAKHIDH FE -HIM H.USN(AN) 1886

Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water near it he found a People We said "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." 1886

If the fast was to end just before SUNSET then the proper word would have been QABLA GHUROB.

FA- IS.BIR cALAA MAA YAQOLON WA- SABBIH. BI- H.AMD RABB -KA QABLA T.ULOc ASH- SHAMS WA- QABLA GHUROB -HAA WA- MIN 'AANAA' AL- LAYL FA- SABBIH. WA- AT.RAAF AN- NAHAAR LAcALLA -KA TARD.AA 20130

Therefore be patient with what they say and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting; yea celebrate them for part of the hours of the night and at the sides of the day that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy. 20130

FA- IS.BIR cALAA MAA YAQOLON WA- SABBIH. BI- H.AMD RABB -KA QABLA T.ULOc ASH- SHAMS WA- QABLA AL- GHUROB 5039

Therefore (O Muhammad) bear with what they say and hymn the praise of thy Lord before the rising and before the setting of the sun; 5039

Since Allah never runs short of words

And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink) with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply) yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in power Full of Wisdom. 3127

And neither errs nor forgets He replied "The knowledge of that is with my Lord duly recorded my Lord never errs nor forgets 20 52

Therefore the breaking time of the fast must be NIGHT (literal) and not SUNSET

thanks

Allah knows better

zenje

Salaam all,

Thank you for your post brother Hafeez.

This verse is clear unless I'm missing something.
Isn't it interesting that we both see "clearly" different views from the same verse? There is no doubt in my mind (atleast not yet) that the verse clearly indicates night has no daylight in it and we are in darkness. Which then indicates again the same description of night in 1778. Darkness of the night, or night in which there's darkness. Sometimes, I have a feeling we look a little too much into something. This is my opinion anyway. It's simple and clear, in any other language, night is night. There is no daylight in it, there is darkness. This is the description in 3637.

There is a description of sunset here. Not used for 2185

I dont understand what you mean here.

Apologies, I meant 2187. I was trying to say that sunset is described in different ways throughout the quran (waning of the sun, 2 ends of the day, etc.) but never as night.

I share the same view and add this verse

Have you not seen that God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
Accepted, the day is merged into the night, and the night into the day, but this just tells me that these are two separate 'zones', if you will. There's night, there's day. As they merge, there's sunrise, and sunset. IMHO that means, the day doesn't just dissappear in a second and there's night, but there's a transition... that transition is not night.

Peace be with you all.

Wakas

peace hafeez kazi,

The 'taghrubu' in 1886 is in the imperfect active (i.e. in the process of being done) NOT "set" (past tense).

peace Zein,

the verse clearly indicates night has no daylight in it and we are in darkness.

If we take the "it" out of the sign and replace "it" with its reference (i.e. "the night") it looks like this

And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.

Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates night has no daylight in it"?

Wakas

marie

Peace all,

I want to specify that I end my fast after the sunset; I start eating 20-25 minutes after 'maghrib/sunset' because I consider that the night is present even when I observe again daylight in it.

I don't know if we adamantly can say that the night is without daylight because it is called also the night when it is merged into the day, this is why I quoted 3129

Allah knows best

Maarie

zenje

Salaam brother Wakas,

If we take the "it" out of the sign and replace "it" with its reference (i.e. "the night") it looks like this

And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.

Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates night has no daylight in it"?
Without a doubt. Once daylight is removed, they are in darkness. When there's light, it's not night yet. We have words and descriptions for that transition as I pointed out before.

I think I understand what you're pointing at though, that the light is removed from the night, which means there was light to begin with, in the night. That's how I understand the whole 'it' issue, unless I've misunderstood you. See, the night is not night, with daylight, and thats why it blends and then is completely removed. Also, try to think of it this way, why wait for the sun to fully set, at some point the 'night' has crept in. When does the 'merging'/'blending' actually begin then?

From all the verses provided, for this 'argument', they reassure me even more, that night is night, and no other way. But that's just me.

Peace

unknownuser

Salaams all,

FWIW this is my understanding too

And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.

There are parts of the day that identified as the day which contains dark and night that contains light. My approach was simply to look at the point that night starts.

unknownuser

See, the night is not night, with daylight,

Salaam Kyle,

I think this is where the divergence in opinions comes from. The night has daylight in it. Are you thinking darkness=night I wonder?

Which part of the day does the time periods where there is both dark and light belong then? From the Qur'an I can at least say the latter part i.e. after sunset belongs to night. By your logic it would have to belong to the day...

regards,

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ashshura,

I didn't say anything!? shock D

zenje

Salaam Ash,

Are you thinking darkness=night I wonder?
No, night = night. Darkness is a 'property' of night' as we see in 3637... whereupon they are in darkness. That's night. And it's not my definition

Which part of the day does the time periods where there is both dark and light belong then?
It doesn't matter, that's not night.

From the Qur'an I can at least say the latter part i.e. after sunset belongs to night.
Sunset is not night. As I said earlier, there are descriptions of sunset, in the quran... 2187 is not one of them.

By your logic it would have to belong to the day...
It's not that either. Please read my posts on this thread.

And it's Zein, not Kyle. wink

On a side note, it was a little amusing when I was debating with a sunni cousin of mine who was really defensive and started talking about definitions of night including a dictionary translation. roll Anybody, any place would have no problem in knowing what you mean, if you said night... but when it comes to religion...

Peace to all!

zenje

I didn't say anything!? shock D

http//www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/028.gif

unknownuser

I didn't say anything!? shock

http//www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/028.gif

lol Silly me confused Kyle with Zein wink

Salaams

unknownuser

And it's Zein, not Kyle. wink

On a side note, it was a little amusing when I was debating with a sunni cousin of mine who was really defensive and started talking about definitions of night including a dictionary translation. roll Anybody, any place would have no problem in knowing what you mean, if you said night... but when it comes to religion...

Peace to all!

Salaam Zein,

Believe me I am not relying on dictionary definitions, I studied this last year but sometimes memory fades.

I will leave you with one thought and try to read your responses instead of engaging in a battle of whits D

See this translation

Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.

If you can remove daylight from the night, it must contain daylight.

regards

zenje

Salaam brother Ash,

No battle, just healthy debate.

As I said, we look at the same verse, and come up with different understandings. Night does not contain daylight, daylight is removed, then you have night, whereupon we are in darkeness. This is my opinion. I appreciate yours.

Best regards and peace be with you.

unknownuser

Salaams Zein,

"battle" meant in the sense of a familiarity and tongue in cheek.

We all learn from each other and improve our understanding.

Peace be to you to.

hafeez_kazi

Peace Wakas

Your Quote
The 'taghrubu' in 1886 is in the imperfect active (i.e. in the process of being done) NOT "set" (past tense).

You are right, but my argument is the selection of the words by Allah.

GHUROB = setting (of the sun or star)

MAGHRIB= Place or time of sunset

Why Allah has placed LAYL instead of BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS in 2185

WA- AGHT.ASHA LAYL -HAA WA- AKHRAJA D.UH.AA -HAA 7929

GHATASH= to be or become DARK (night)

And He made DARK the NIGHT thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. 7929

The exclusion of the words BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS and replacing it with NIGHT and further explanation that NIGHT is DARK clearly indicates that the fasting has to be ended at night, which is approximately 20 minutes after the sunset.

Your Quote
And a sign for them is the night, We remove the DAYLIGHT from the night, whereupon they
are in darkness.

Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates NIGHT has no DAYLIGHT in it"?

You have added LIGHT to DAY. It is DAY and not DAYLIGHT. It changes the meaning significantly

And a sign for them is the NIGHT, We remove the (NAHAAR) DAY from the NIGHT, whereupon they are in darkness.

And establish regular prayers at the TWO ENDS OF THE DAY and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) 11114

The MAGHRIB is the ONE END of the DAY and not PART of the NIGHT.

Thanks

zenje

Brother hafeez,

I have nothing else to add, except bravo! http//www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/604.gif

Peace.