A little bit of alcohol
-
Peace stops,
We cannot care for someone who is not interested in listening and is just coming with argument upon argument.
I am sure good logic cares to some extent, but you are responsible yourself for your life.
It is the state of getting intoxicated, for recreational use, which is forbidden, not medical or other uses of alcohol and drugs. The Quran is to be taken rationally.
If you don't care for other humans who are asking questions than ignore me, please. I don't want to cramp your style.
But if you are appealing to rational arguments, you should maybe consider my questions. You are pulling your assertions from your empty hand. The Koran does not does not specify any of what you are talking about.
You can't approach the Koran rationally, but only through faith. -
Prophet Muhammad Drank Wine
Sahih Muslim "Drinks, Drinking wine and fermentation"
Narrated by Gaber bin Abdullah
We were with the messenger of Allah, PBUH and he asked for a drink. One of his men said "Oh Messenger of Allah, Can we offer you wine to drink?" He said Yes. He (Gaber) went out looking for the drink and came back with a cup of wine. The messenger (Peace Be Upon him) asked, ?Have you covered it with a twig in a transverse manner? He (Gaber) said, ?Yes? and he (Muhammad) drank.Sahih Muslim - Hadith #3753, or see screenshot
Prophet Muhammad Performed Ablution With Wine
Narrated by Abdullah bin Masoud (May God be pleased with him)
He was with the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him on the night of the jinn when he asked him if he had water. He answered that he had wine in a pot. Mohammed said Pour me some to do ablution and he did. Prophet peace be upon him "O Abdullah bin Masood it is a drink and a purifier."Musnad Ahmad - Hadith #3594, or see screenshot
Other Hadiths
Ibn 'Abbas reported that Nabidh was prepared for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in the waterskin, Shu'ba said It was the night of Monday. He drank it on Monday and on Tuesday up to the afternoon, and If anything was left out of it he gave it to his servant or poured it out.
Sahih Muslim 234972
Thats not true,please read the explanation
http//www.islamic-life.com/forums/faithfreedom-wikiislam/muhammad-drank-wine-performed-ablution-5548 -
Peace,
My speech is from Quran and the Quran should indeed be taken rationally. You need to have faith to be able to interpret it rationally though.
Alcohol cannot be considered an "intoxicant" if it is not used as for this purpose, i.e. make your body intoxicated. Do you mean it makes you skin intoxicated if you apply it on your skin or make you intoxicated if you put it in your mouth as mouthwash then spit it out again?
Anything that has adverse effects on the body and mind is to be considered an "intoxicant", so please do not come here telling me I come with an empty hand.
Please be rational. The Quran does not specify what I said, but it does not need to, just interpret the simple word I said and you can yourself draw the conclusion through simple logic. God has given us the brain for a reason.
To further explain why; a verse where intoxicants is mentioned also speaks of gambling in conjunction and you can yourself use the simple context to conclude that it means to follow your lusts. Intoxicants, including alcohol, is forbidden because it causes you to forget about God and make you more susceptible to follow your own vain desires.
You would not follow your lusts if you put on a roll-on deo with alcohol in it because it will simply not make you intoxicated, i.e. the mind clouded or in any way impaired.
Another case is if a person gets extreme pain and requires narcotic drugs to relieve it, with your reasoning he should suffer because it makes him "intoxicated" in case he takes those drugs. Of course God does not restrict its use based on this verse which means to follow your lusts, i.e. get high to feel good.
Again I tell you to be rational.
Do you need more arguments?
I will not give you more clarification than this, it is enough.
-
My speech is from Quran and the Quran should indeed be taken rationally. You need to have faith to be able to interpret it rationally though.
It is not addressed to me explicitly, but I'll take it anyway.
If you are indeed quoting the Koran, then please show me where it says what you claim it says
"It is the state of getting intoxicated, for recreational use, which is forbidden, not medical or other uses of alcohol and drugs"Alcohol cannot be considered an "intoxicant" if it is not used as for this purpose, i.e. make your body intoxicated. Do you mean it makes you skin intoxicated if you apply it on your skin or make you intoxicated if you put it in your mouth as mouthwash then spit it out again?
Anything that has adverse effects on the body and mind is to be considered an "intoxicant", so please do not come here telling me I come with an empty hand.
Please be rational. The Quran does not specify what I said, but it does not need to, just interpret the simple word I said and you can yourself draw the conclusion through simple logic. God has given us the brain for a reason.
Ah, now suddenly you admit that I am right. First you argue in this way and then the opposite.
And please stop using the word "rational". You don't seem to know what it means
ra?tion?al
Show IPA
adjective- agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible a rational plan for economic development.
- having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense a calm and rational negotiator.
- being in or characterized by full possession of one's reason; sane; lucid The patient appeared perfectly rational.
- endowed with the faculty of reason rational beings.
- of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers the rational faculty.
To further explain why; a verse where intoxicants is mentioned also speaks of gambling in conjunction and you can yourself use the simple context to conclude that it means to follow your lusts. Intoxicants, including alcohol, is forbidden because it causes you to forget about God and make you more susceptible to follow your own vain desires.
You would not follow your lusts if you put on a roll-on deo with alcohol in it because it will simply not make you intoxicated, i.e. the mind clouded or in any way impaired.
Another case is if a person gets extreme pain and requires narcotic drugs to relieve it, with your reasoning he should suffer because it makes him "intoxicated" in case he takes those drugs. Of course God does not restrict its use based on this verse which means to follow your lusts, i.e. get high to feel good.
Again I tell you to be rational.
Do you need more arguments?
I will not give you more clarification than this, it is enough.
You are not providing any arguments but merely applying special pleading and appealing to emotion. Then you use the word you don't understand and you think you have explained something. Nope, you have not.
All you are saying if I understand this correctly is that anyone can interpret this to mean what they want as long as you don't "forget" your god.
Is alcohol and gambling satan's work or not? If not, why not? -
Is that the Persian al Razi who famously said
?You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it"?!?
Then this would indicate this al Razi was not at all a Muslim, but the opposite. I get this a lot that people with Arabic names are automatically assumed to be Muslims.
I don't know if he repented before his death,but he was born as a muslim and have his higher education in Iraq.
But the important point which you had unintentionally presented here is that religion criticism was discussed in peaceful way which refute the calumnies about islam and the lies that muslims used to kill the apostasy and thanks god that al razi books stands as a tangible evidence against those liers through our history.
-
I don't know if he repented before his death,but he was born as a muslim and have his higher education in Iraq.
I have heard that claim before. Every human for the last 200,000 years was born as a Muslim. When today, Muslims can't even define what a Muslim really is. Whatever.
The point is that the statement "the muslim scientist" is not correct.
But the important point which you had unintentionally presented here is that religion criticism was discussed in peaceful way which refute the calumnies about islam and the lies that muslims used to kill the apostasy and thanks god that al razi books stands as a tangible evidence against those liers through our history.
I did not mention anything about any violence. I totally agree that there are completely normal and even pacifist Muslims. There are also Muslims who are the opposite. Just like all people. So I don't think it is due to religion, but genes, personality and character.
-
Peace Stops,
I gave you a fully explained answer, involving reason, why do you twist and arrogantly reject my fully logical explanation? I surely know what being rational means without having you explain it for me. My argument was to use the brain of yours to work out a rational answer, and I even gave you some help.
I said "just use rational thinking to interpret the Quran". Is that too hard for you without using personal attacks?
If you take drugs you are susceptible to the whispers of Satan, following your own lusts and vain desires. Why do I have to repeat myself?
Having lusts after intoxicants is the work of Satan, hence the Quran says so.
I need no further explanation than my previous post, it still stands.
Please be rational.
Are you going to continue your unnecessary personal attacks then I will not answer you again.
-
I gave you a fully explained answer, involving reason
I know that you think you did.
why do you twist and arrogantly reject my fully logical explanation?
If I am twisting something, tell me what. Don't allege something without proof.
You also say You need to have faith to be able to interpret it rationally though. How is that rational or logical?
You then say "Anything that has adverse effects on the body and mind is to be considered an "intoxicant"". That is your personal understanding which is different to mine. How is that rational or logical?
First you say "My speech is from Quran" and then, just a few line down The Quran does not specify what I said. How is that rational or logical?
Your advice is
just interpret the simple word I said and you can yourself draw the conclusion through simple logic
How is doing what I feel like rational or logical?
You go on to claim to know that "it means to follow your lusts". Why does it mean that? Where does the Koran specify this?
First you tell me I should use my own interpretation and then you conclude "Intoxicants, including alcohol, is forbidden" How is that rational or logical?I will stop here because you are continuously contradicting yourself and are making absolutely no sense.
I surely know what being rational means without having you explain it for me.
Demonstrate it!
My argument was to use the brain of yours to work out a rational answer, and I even gave you some help.
Your answer was
... you are responsible yourself for your life. It is the state of getting intoxicated, for recreational use, which is forbidden, not medical or other uses of alcohol and drugs. The Quran is to be taken rationally.You are making a claim. You are claiming that the Koran explicitly forbids something. I have repeatedly asked you to show me where the Koran says this - you have not. So what should I do with this?
What is the best action to take according to you?Now you tell me the Koran must be taken rationally. How? There are conflicting statements in the Koran regarding alcohol and they, in turn, contradict reality the way I see this. That's why I am asking people for their opinions on this.
I said "just use rational thinking to interpret the Quran". Is that too hard for you without using personal attacks?
If you take drugs you are susceptible to the whispers of Satan, following your own lusts and vain desires. Why do I have to repeat myself?
Having lusts after intoxicants is the work of Satan, hence the Quran says so.
I need no further explanation than my previous post, it still stands.
Please be rational.
Are you going to continue your unnecessary personal attacks then I will not answer you again.
Again you accuse me of personal attacks. What personal attacks? Did I insult you? Did I say something about you that is not true?
If you call my questioning your ability to use rational and logical thinking then that is not personal, but factual, which I have sufficiently demonstrated.
However, if you feel that this was a personal attack, I assure you it was not intended that way and I apologise if it comes across as such. -
Peace,
We have been arguing back and forth like immature children, do you not think? And not gotten anywhere. Let us relax and settle it peacefully here.
I will accept your view of what you said, since you obviously stand by it, but I doubt everyone agrees with you. I finally respect your words even if you disrespect my intelligence, although I was falling victim to some immature behavior myself.
Anyway, in your perspective I may have been irrational, illogical, contradicting myself, I accept your opinion, even if I feel a bit sad you did not appreciate my efforts.
-
We have been arguing back and forth like immature children, do you not think? And not gotten anywhere. Let us relax and settle it peacefully here.
I will accept your view of what you said, since you obviously stand by it, but I doubt everyone agrees with you.
Fine by me. If you go back to my starting point you will see I asked 3 questions. This is not my view, but my attempt at establishing what people here think and why. If you can't answer my questions and can't convincingly demonstrate what you believe and why you believe it, that's fine.
Maybe others can explain the concept of alcohol and what it means to Muslims and why.....
-
Fine by me. If you go back to my starting point you will see I asked 3 questions. This is not my view, but my attempt at establishing what people here think and why. If you can't answer my questions and can't convincingly demonstrate what you believe and why you believe it, that's fine.
Maybe others can explain the concept of alcohol and what it means to Muslims and why.....
Peace StopS,
I'm not great at explaining things too well by referencing the Quran because i am merely a beginner in the sense I'm not good at linking my views using the Quran, even if i've read the whole Quran but just can't recall the verses.
I found this thread to be of use, post 113 was pretty much my view.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602930.msg285388#msg285388
In terms of what a muslim is, there was another thread I posted in about using the word "muslim" untranslated if we are to be translating EVERYTHING into English. To me, "muslim" = "the peaceful". My previous view WAS "submitter" however as the link below suggests (which i will paste), this leaves us to manually add on "to Allah" after every instance of "submitter" when translating into English. To remove this confusion, "the peaceful" seems to be a better translation.
http//www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness
peace, just my 2 cents ).
-
Peace stops,
I did give you my believer answer, but you did not accept them somehow, even if told you exactly why. You meant I was illogical, irrational and contradicted myself for giving the reason why I do not restrict use of drugs to 100% and you just made fun of it and yet I accepted your stance in the end.
But you cannot say I did not give my view and why, even if you mean I believe illogically and in contradiction.
-
Peace,
I still stand by my first statement to be rational when interpreting the Quran and what I wrote. I find it logical and not contradiction.
I do not buy your claim of irrationality, but you may think what you think because I do not care.
-
Health Effects of Alcohol Consumption
Arthritis
Increases risk of gouty arthritis
Cancer
Increases the risk of cancer in the liver, pancreas, rectum, breast, mouth, pharynx, larynx and esophagus
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
Causes physical and behavioral abnormalities in the fetus
Heart Disease
Raises blood pressure, blood lipids and the risk of stroke and heart disease in heavy drinkers.
Heart disease is generally lower in light to moderate drinkers.
Hyperglycermia
Raises blood glucose
Hypoglycemia
Lowers blood glucose, especially for people with diabetes
Kidney Disease
Enlarges the kidneys, alters hormone functions, and increases the risk of kidney failure
Liver Disease
Causes fatty liver, alcoholic hepatitis and cirrhosis
Malnutrition
Increases the risk of protein-energy malnutrition,; low intakes of protein,
calcium, iron, vitamin A, vitamin C, thiamine, vitamin B6 and riboflavin,
and impaired absorption of calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D and zinc.
Nervous Disorders
Causes neuropathy and dementia; impairs balance and memory
Obesity
Increases energy intake, but not a primary cause of obesity
Psychological disturbances
Causes depression, anxiety and insomniaGod knows better what is good and what is bad for us,he did not say to us for example
not to drink a fresh fruit juice but asked us to avoid the alcoholic drinks because it has
a bad effect on our bodies and brains,for God,whether we drink or not,will not affect him
by any means, but he direct us for what is good for us becuase he knows better. -
Salam StopS
I have always wondered about that one. If there are several sentences with differing statements in the Koran, doesn't this indicate a degree of uncertainty around alcohol consumption and intoxicants?
God speaks about Chamr. not Alcohol. Ch-m-r cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured. the same root as Chimar (what we put over the head (also not all
Answer No
look at the statements in the Quran nowhere you will found a contradiction-/there are different aspects of the same subjectCan any human really claim with any degree of certainty which command was "revealed" earlier or later and what the intentions are?
no.Just as is the case with pork, we can't avoid alcohol nowadays. If it's not in medicine we have it in window cleaners or car fluids as isopropyl alcohol.
nowhere God said that ALCOHOL is haram. If He would say that, it will give a contradiction - bu He didn'tIt seems a bit like the tree in paradise here's a tree. It's great. Don't touch it. the tree wasn't in paradise- it was on earth... ;D and how you say chamr is great?? you don't like your logic brain?? peace
Would an all-merciful god really send a person for eternal torment in the hell-fire for drinking a glass of champagne on their birthday?no i don't think so.)
peace -
Peace StopS,
I'm not great at explaining things too well by referencing the Quran because i am merely a beginner in the sense I'm not good at linking my views using the Quran, even if i've read the whole Quran but just can't recall the verses.
I found this thread to be of use, post 113 was pretty much my view.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602930.msg285388#msg285388
Thanks for the explanation. I consider your replies and opinions more coherent than many others here, so I would not worry. Thanks for your opinion, which is the balanced approach and which makes the most sense to me too.
In terms of what a muslim is, there was another thread I posted in about using the word "muslim" untranslated if we are to be translating EVERYTHING into English. To me, "muslim" = "the peaceful". My previous view WAS "submitter" however as the link below suggests (which i will paste), this leaves us to manually add on "to Allah" after every instance of "submitter" when translating into English. To remove this confusion, "the peaceful" seems to be a better translation.
http//www.free-minds.org/introduction-peacefulness
peace, just my 2 cents ).
This is a problematic approach in my eyes. This is like a horoscope, where everyone initially likes to consider themselves "peaceful". Only, some turn out to be extremely violent.
Also, how can one differentiate between a peaceful Hindu, Christian, Pastafarian and Muslim? You might as well call it "human". No, I think there ought to be a differentiator such as "a person considering the Koran the basis for their worldview" or something along those lines, otherwise it's just too wishy-washy. -
Salam StopS
God speaks about Chamr. not Alcohol. Ch-m-r cover/conceal/veil, becoming changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured. the same root as Chimar (what we put over the head (also not all
Answer No
look at the statements in the Quran nowhere you will found a contradiction-/there are different aspects of the same subjectnowhere God said that ALCOHOL is haram. If He would say that, it will give a contradiction - bu He didn't
the tree wasn't in paradise- it was on earth... ;D and how you say chamr is great?? you don't like your logic brain?? peace
Would an all-merciful god really send a person for eternal torment in the hell-fire for drinking a glass of champagne on their birthday?no i don't think so.
peaceThanks
-
I don't find enough evidence that intoxicants are HARAAM (Unlawful), yet they're strongly discouraged and the reasons are started clearly. The problem with alcohol is when to drink it? Because we're not allowed to make Salat when drunk. So say you drink after praying Isha, you get wasted. Chances are, you're going to miss Fajr. Either because you're still buzzed or because you are still recovering from your night of drinking and are passed out. Allah tells us the devil uses this as a tool to keep us away from worshipping God and it's completely true.
-
nasserals,
Alcohol is not forbidden in the Quran. It is, to put it simply, not on the list of items which Allah declared haraam. Any reference to it as haraam is against the Quran. I offer the following verses as well
"O ye who believe! Do not approach salat while you are intoxicated (sukara), until you know what you are saying; nor when you are unclean, except when you are travelling along a way, until you have bathed." (444)
According to this verse, even the act of getting drunk is not forbidden - only approaching salat while drunk.
"O ye who believe! Wine (khamr) and gambling (maysr) and idols and divination by arrows are Satan's tools. So shun him (faijtanibuh) so that you may prosper. Satan desires only to create enmity and hatred amongst you by means of wine and gambling, and keep you back from the remembrance (dhikr) of Allah and from prayer (salat). But will you keep back? And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and be on your guard. But if you turn away, then know that on Our Messenger lies only the clear conveyance of the Message. On those who believe and go good works, there shall be no sin for what they consume (eat and drink) provided they are Allah-conscious and do good works, and again are Allah-conscious and do good works, and yet again are Allah-conscious and do good works. And Allah loves those who do good." (591-94)
Some try to say that the forbidding of alcohol comes from these verses (and do so by deliberately mistranslating faijtanibuh), but any attempt to do so would render 444 as nullified and thus making the Quran contain a contradiction. These verses only issue a warning regarding wine, which is that Satan will try to use it to encourage enmity and hatred between people and dissuade people from dhikr and salat, but if one maintains good works and is Allah-conscious (stressed 3 times), no sin shall emanate from what one eats or drinks.
"They ask thee concerning wine (khamr) and gambling (maysr). Say, 'in both there is great harm as well as some benefit, but their harm is greater than their benefit.'" (2220)
No instruction regarding khamr is given in these verses - so any attempt to justify an action based on them goes further than the Quran does.
"And of the fruits of the date-palms and the grapes, whence you obtain intoxicating drink (sakar) and wholesome food. Verily, in that is a Sign for a people who make use of their reason." (166
Intoxicating drink is referred to as a "sign".
"A description of the Garden promised to the righteous therein are rivers of water which corrupts not; and rivers of milk of which the taste changes not; and rivers of wine (khamr), a delight to those who drink, and rivers of clarified honey. And in it they will have all kinds of fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord. Can those who enjoy such bliss be like those who abide in the Fire and who are given boiling water to drink so that it tears their bowels?" (4716)
Khamr is mentioned along with milk, water and honey, the latter 3 not being forbidden drinks, so why would khamr be?
-
Health Effects of Alcohol Consumption
<snipped>From the Mayo Clinic website
Health benefits of moderate alcohol use-Reduce your risk of developing heart disease
-Reduce your risk of dying of a heart attack
-Possibly reduce your risk of strokes, particularly ischemic strokes
-Lower your risk of gallstones
-Possibly reduce your risk of diabetesI'm not for or against other people drinking alchohol, but just pointing out that in modern times, scare tactics to prove your point are ineffective at best and counter-effective at worst. For every list you can make with the negative health effects of drinking, there's another, equally valid, list of the positive aspects. I came of age at the time when Americans were finally seeing all the damage the DARE program did with scare tactics instead of honest info, so I'm especially sensitive to that method of persuasion. It always does more harm than good when so much information is out there and readily available.