In regard to 5:28- Do we stand idly and get killed?
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So I saw the verse in 528 of the Quran
"If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, the Lord of the worlds." (52
this really made me question self-defense here.
I made a topic not too long ago about killing in self-defense and these verses stood out for me that you can
"It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth." (532)
"The recompense of those who fight GOD and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution." (533)
These make it sound that you can kill in self-defense considering if they are coming to kill me, that I think would be corruption which is what was concluded in the other topic
Then there was this verse that stood out
"Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which GOD has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." (6151)
This verse states not to kill except in justice. Isn't defending out own lives justice let alone killing the person who is committing corruption there?
Thus 528 has confused me in that he was threatened to be killed but said that he won't try to kill him to survive, thus he simply got killed.
What do you guys think? If it is as said, I find it rather odd considering a woman who might be raped by a guy who is attacking her can't try to take him out?, or a man who is being chased by a gang who want his life but can't kill any to survive. Or how about if you see your own mother being attacked and you could stop him by killing him?
I know there is the idea of hurting them enough only to get away, but how can we guarantee that considering during that moment we just wanna survive and thus would try to take them down as fast as possible so we are safe? and heck many people have the idea of murdering the one who is endangering them with rape or murder or both in order to remain safe, are they gonna end up burdening that cause of this??
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Does no one seriously have an answer this?
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When faced by 'the truth', 'the arrogant' tries 'the truth' to put down by personal remarks. The humble 'truth' will never stretch back to put down 'the arrogant'.
In English please and with a proper explanation, thanks.
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Keep in mind 528 is a quote from a servant of God and not directly a decree of God. He did not need to say that.
In God's law it is perfectly just to remove any threat to justice with force. This is the explicit declaration given in that verse.
Exercise your intuition. It is least desired to kill a person so if the threat may be neutralized by any other means then it is incumbent on all parties involved to do so.
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Keep in mind 528 is a quote from a servant of God and not directly a decree of God. He did not need to say that.
In God's law it is perfectly just to remove any threat to justice with force. This is the explicit declaration given in that verse.
Exercise your intuition. It is least desired to kill a person so if the threat may be neutralized by any other means then it is incumbent on all parties involved to do so.
I understand however why would he say that he isn't gonna do that due to his fear? I wouldn't think he would not know the laws especially since his father is a prophet.
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In my opinion the first issue informs us as an example about a fact, this is if we consider that Adam was one person and had only two sons and a single daughter.
If this is the case then the whole humanity descended from one single son, the killing of the other son is the other alternative humanity.
The issue then here is about two distinct branches of humanity..
We descended from the aggressive one, the one who killed his own brother..
Is this just an example or is there more to it?
Everyone knows that it is pretty much silly to stay idle when faced with threat.
But here it's not about a stranger, but someone close to you, and dear to you..
How can anyone kill his own brother?
This is the lesson I believe we are supposed to read. -
In my opinion the first issue informs us as an example about a fact, this is if we consider that Adam was one person and had only two sons and a single daughter.
If this is the case then the whole humanity descended from one single son, the killing of the other son is the other alternative humanity.
The issue then here is about two distinct branches of humanity..
We descended from the aggressive one, the one who killed his own brother..
Is this just an example or is there more to it?
Everyone knows that it is pretty much silly to stay idle when faced with threat.
But here it's not about a stranger, but someone close to you, and dear to you..
How can anyone kill his own brother?
This is the lesson I believe we are supposed to read.I don't think it has anything to do with killing family as it seems like it's talking about murder in general even though they are brothers. Especially since it doesn't mention that he doesn't wanna do it cause he is family. This is what I think so far, but if I am wrong then may Allah forgive me for it.
Even so, just cause it's family who is trying to kill us, we aren't to fight back according to what you think?
So I would like more concrete answer here please and thank you
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When faced by 'the truth', 'the arrogant' tries 'the truth' to put down by personal remarks. The humble 'truth' will never stretch back to put down 'the arrogant'.
In English please and with a proper explanation, thanks.
consider, when two persons are debating, the person, who, no more has valid points tries to put down the other person by personal remarks. There by, triggering his temper. The humble and God fearing person will not revert back to put down the other person. The humble always stays by the truth 'do not hurt'
this is how i have taken as one of the guidance from the verse you have stated, thanks.
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There is one very important problem with the argument that killing is allowed in self-defence, that is, when you (or anyone) is threated to be attacked "what is the exact definition of a threat?"
For example, can I kill someone in the name of self-defence if I interpret someone' joke as a threat?
Sure this is an extreme example, but, the point is, there is NO clear cross. Anyone can say to pretty much every kill that it was in the name of self-defence.
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consider, when two persons are debating, the person, who, no more has valid points tries to put down the other person by personal remarks. There by, triggering his temper. The humble and God fearing person will not revert back to put down the other person. The humble always stays by the truth 'do not hurt'
this is how i have taken as one of the guidance from the verse you have stated, thanks.
Uhhh we are talking about possibly being killed here and not simple insults thrown back and forth in an argument.
There is one very important problem with the argument that killing is allowed in self-defence, that is, when you (or anyone) is threated to be attacked "what is the exact definition of a threat?"
For example, can I kill someone in the name of self-defence if I interpret someone' joke as a threat?
Sure this is an extreme example, but, the point is, there is NO clear cross. Anyone can say to pretty much every kill that it was in the name of self-defence.
There is one very important problem with the argument that killing is allowed in self-defence, that is, when you (or anyone) is threated to be attacked "what is the exact definition of a threat?"
For example, can I kill someone in the name of self-defence if I interpret someone' joke as a threat?
Sure this is an extreme example, but, the point is, there is NO clear cross. Anyone can say to pretty much every kill that it was in the name of self-defence.
We are not talking about the the vague stuff here. What I wanna know is the obvious stuff like being attacked with a knife or gun, or being chased down to be raped.
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We are not talking about the the vague stuff here. What I wanna know is the obvious stuff like being attacked with a knife or gun, or being chased down to be raped.
That is exactly what I was trying to say.
How ever, you are missing the point that there are two extremes here, and there is an unclear line between these two extremes. I would probably also take my gun/knife as a self-defence in such cases, but, what if, IF the threat you saw to be a very serious one, maybe because of some specific (uncalculated) circumstances might end up to be a stupid joke?
As you should know, it is a gross sin to kill any innocent person. In fact, killing any believer intentionally will cause you to enter hell for eternity (with no mention about repentance in any surrounding verses, in contrast to the verse dealing with acccidental killing).
Also, see the following verses
2190-194
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Fight them until there is no fitnah and worship is for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
the sacred month is for the sacred month, and for violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.Personally, if you really want a good answer, you should instead have to study all the quranic verses about fighting and analyze the words about the limits ordained to us. You won't find any better answer than what is found in the Quran.
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That is exactly what I was trying to say.
How ever, you are missing the point that there are two extremes here, and there is an unclear line between these two extremes. I would probably also take my gun/knife as a self-defence in such cases, but, what if, IF the threat you saw to be a very serious one, maybe because of some specific (uncalculated) circumstances might end up to be a stupid joke?
As you should know, it is a gross sin to kill any innocent person. In fact, killing any believer intentionally will cause you to enter hell for eternity (with no mention about repentance in any surrounding verses, in contrast to the verse dealing with acccidental killing).
Also, see the following verses
2190-194
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Fight them until there is no fitnah and worship is for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
the sacred month is for the sacred month, and for violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.Personally, if you really want a good answer, you should instead have to study all the quranic verses about fighting and analyze the words about the limits ordained to us. You won't find any better answer than what is found in the Quran.
First off Quran has stated that Allah forgives ALL sins as stated in this verse
"SayO My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful." - 3953
So don't make it seem as if Allah won't forgive murder of a believer when this verse clearly states "all".
In regards to the verses you showed me, I do agree and I have seen these and the verses I layed out earlier. HOWEVER, the fact that there is a verse such as 528 really has me confused. Why is it that those verses say you can I think but yet that one says no I think. Thus I want to know what 528 might really means if those other verses are as said.
As for the killing of someone who was making you think like that due to a joke, well I think it would come down to intention. If one legitimately believes that what is stated in 532-533 is happening and you kill them, but only after to find it was a joke, I don't see why the person would be blameworthy as they honestly thought they were serious.
What I want to basically know in the end is why 528 has it like that when there so many verses that seem to allow for it as self-defense I think.
Of course, I may be wrong in all of this as i'm never sure 100% so if i'm wrong then please Allah forgive me.
Thanks
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Uhhh we are talking about possibly being killed here and not simple insults thrown back and forth in an argument.
We are not talking about the the vague stuff here. What I wanna know is the obvious stuff like being attacked with a knife or gun, or being chased down to be raped.
i understand Quran as guidance to reach God in the state of peace. from the verse stated - The humble and God fearing person is in such a beautiful situation - he is in peace. he accepts even death in that peaceful state, so he is not tempted to defend or strike back. if he dies, he knows he will go back to his Lord.
the humble and God fearing person will only wish to reach God when he is in peace, satisfied with God and also God satisfied with him. (89 27 -30).
we as believers in God, should not expect bad happenings in our life. This is our prayer. If we expect bad, we reject God and then it is yet to come; if we expect good, then it is there with God's blessings. (1434)
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i understand Quran as guidance to reach God in the state of peace. from the verse stated - The humble and God fearing person is in such a beautiful situation - he is in peace. he accepts even death in that peaceful state, so he is not tempted to defend or strike back. if he dies, he knows he will go back to his Lord.
the humble and God fearing person will only wish to reach God when he is in peace, satisfied with God and also God satisfied with him. (89 27 -30).
we as believers in God, should not expect bad happenings in our life. This is our prayer. If we expect bad, we reject God and then it is yet to come; if we expect good, then it is there with God's blessings. (1434)
I probably would get into a whole argument with you here as I don't agree as there are verses I believe that it states you can kill people under certain conditions such at what 2290 to 2294 say or what 533 says. So I don't plan to respond to to such statements any further and want a real answer involving all those verses I believe where we are allowed to kill people under such conditions as well as what 528 might really mean in comparison to those many verses.
Also just a heads up, I do not want to die cause I don't know whether i'm going to heaven or hell and thus due to my fears I would like to at least enjoy my life as is and thus why I would like to defend myself if someone is trying to kill me let alone save my mother if she is being attacked for example.
Regardless no offense but I don't plan to respond to such posts, thanks and would like to only respond to ones that explain 528 vs all those other verses that I believe allow killing under certain conditions such as 2290 to 2294 or what 533 states.
Of course, this is what I believe I think at the moment but I may be wrong in all or some of this as i'm never sure 100% so if i'm wrong then please Allah forgive me.
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So I saw the verse in 528 of the Quran
"If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, the Lord of the worlds." (52
this really made me question self-defense here.
I made a topic not too long ago about killing in self-defense and these verses stood out for me that you can
"It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth." (532)
"The recompense of those who fight GOD and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution." (533)
These make it sound that you can kill in self-defense considering if they are coming to kill me, that I think would be corruption which is what was concluded in the other topic
Then there was this verse that stood out
"Say "Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which GOD has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." (6151)
This verse states not to kill except in justice. Isn't defending out own lives justice let alone killing the person who is committing corruption there?
Thus 528 has confused me in that he was threatened to be killed but said that he won't try to kill him to survive, thus he simply got killed.
What do you guys think? If it is as said, I find it rather odd considering a woman who might be raped by a guy who is attacking her can't try to take him out?, or a man who is being chased by a gang who want his life but can't kill any to survive. Or how about if you see your own mother being attacked and you could stop him by killing him?
I know there is the idea of hurting them enough only to get away, but how can we guarantee that considering during that moment we just wanna survive and thus would try to take them down as fast as possible so we are safe? and heck many people have the idea of murdering the one who is endangering them with rape or murder or both in order to remain safe, are they gonna end up burdening that cause of this??
Salam
Have you considered reading the whole surah? Taking 528 only is taking it out of context. You have to (at least) start with 527 and finish with 532. It is a story of the two sons of Adam and their disagreement.
And recite to them the news of the two sons of Adam with truth.They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said "I will kill you!" He said "God only accepts from the righteous." "If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds." "I want you to have both my sin and your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the recompense of the wicked."
So he found it in himself to kill his brother; so he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.
So God sent forth a raven to scratch the land and show him how to deal with the body of his brother. He said "Woe to me! Am I not even able to be like this raven and deal with the body of my brother?" So he became of those who regretted.
It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earth -
Salam
Have you considered reading the whole surah? Taking 528 only is taking it out of context. You have to (at least) start with 527 and finish with 532. It is a story of the two sons of Adam and their disagreement.
And recite to them the news of the two sons of Adam with truth.They had both made an offering, and it was accepted from one of them, and not accepted from the other. He said "I will kill you!" He said "God only accepts from the righteous." "If you stretch your hand to kill me, I will not stretch my hand to kill you, for I fear God, Lord of the worlds." "I want you to have both my sin and your own sin, and you will then be among the dwellers of the Fire. Such is the recompense of the wicked."
So he found it in himself to kill his brother; so he killed him. He thus became one of the losers.
So God sent forth a raven to scratch the land and show him how to deal with the body of his brother. He said "Woe to me! Am I not even able to be like this raven and deal with the body of my brother?" So he became of those who regretted.
It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person for other than murder, or corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the earthThank you Emil but I think I have read the whole thing before of the verses you posted but I still am not entirely sure why 528 is stated as such versus those other verses as far as I understand and believe of the meanings of these and those verses.
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Thank you Emil but I think I have read the whole thing before of the verses you posted but I still am not entirely sure why 528 is stated as such versus those other verses as far as I understand and believe of the meanings of these and those verses.
Salam Aryan
I understand what you mean. But the story of Cain and Abel is older than the Quran, therefore the "original" can be found outside the Quran. I believe the Quran corrects a minute part of the story. Obviously the jews and christians got it a bit wrong. As far as I remember there is no mention of "even if you try to kill me I will not raise my hand against you" in the biblical scripts..........The Quran puts the story straight so to say.
So take the story of Cain and Abel from the older scriptures, insert the Quranic verse in the fitting place and voil? you will have a story that conveys a message. My personal favourite message is that martyrdom does not involve you dying while killing others. You can only become a martyr of God with passive resistance. For example the chinese dude which stood in front of a tank on Tiaman square........Don't know how old you are, maybe you never heard of it...... but youtube it.....I find his protest the best example of passive resistance....... Anyways a bit offtopic but nonetheless.
The story of Cain and Abel is a story with a message, what the message contains is up to you.
The message you find is yours to keep, but do not cross-reference to other verses or take out a single verse and scrutinize on a individual basis. If you do that you will find many contradictions.
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Does no one seriously have an answer this?
I think the person said that he does not have it in him to kill his own brother. Plus maybe he did not think that his brother would actually kill him but was threatening only.There is not enough to go by from this verse alone. The issue here has to do with intentional murder as compared to unintentional murder. It also highlights why murder is a big grave sin. Because killing one of the sons of Adam is almost like killing all the possible offsprings that could have come from that person. If all the children of Adam perished young none of us will be alive today and there would have been no human existence.
I just don't see enough on that verse to make deductions about not defending oneself. Anyways that was the words chosen by a son of Adam and not a Quranic command or even a prophetic command.
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Salam Aryan
I understand what you mean. But the story of Cain and Abel is older than the Quran, therefore the "original" can be found outside the Quran. I believe the Quran corrects a minute part of the story. Obviously the jews and christians got it a bit wrong. As far as I remember there is no mention of "even if you try to kill me I will not raise my hand against you" in the biblical scripts..........The Quran puts the story straight so to say.
So take the story of Cain and Abel from the older scriptures, insert the Quranic verse in the fitting place and voil? you will have a story that conveys a message. My personal favourite message is that martyrdom does not involve you dying while killing others. You can only become a martyr of God with passive resistance. For example the chinese dude which stood in front of a tank on Tiaman square........Don't know how old you are, maybe you never heard of it...... but youtube it.....I find his protest the best example of passive resistance....... Anyways a bit offtopic but nonetheless.
The story of Cain and Abel is a story with a message, what the message contains is up to you.
The message you find is yours to keep, but do not cross-reference to other verses or take out a single verse and scrutinize on a individual basis. If you do that you will find many contradictions.
I think I understand what you mean here considering in those selection of verses we had the part that said
"It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth. The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution. " (532-533)Thus I think that maybe since it says because of what happened between the two sons of Adam that Allah decreed the laws of who you can kill under certain conditions which would correct what the son who died could have fought back rather than assume all forms of killing are not allowed. Though that's only a possible theory I am getting from this, but do you think it makes sense some sense here?
I think the person said that he does not have it in him to kill his own brother. Plus maybe he did not think that his brother would actually kill him but was threatening only.There is not enough to go by from this verse alone. The issue here has to do with intentional murder as compared to unintentional murder. It also highlights why murder is a big grave sin. Because killing one of the sons of Adam is almost like killing all the possible offsprings that could have come from that person. If all the children of Adam perished young none of us will be alive today and there would have been no human existence.
I just don't see enough on that verse to make deductions about not defending oneself. Anyways that was the words chosen by a son of Adam and not a Quranic command or even a prophetic command.
Well I don't think it was the idea that he did not have it in him to kill his brother considering it said that he fears Allah. However thinking that it's a threat sounds reasonable. Anyways yes it is true that if they died, the human race could be endangered if Adam didn't have more sons or try to have more sons.