Verses 4:150 and 4:151 - shocking?
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
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First of all point out that what has been translated as unbelievers in 4.151 is the arabic "kafirun". And what has been translated as deny is the verb kafara of the same import and both are very strong term, very, very, very strong expression. To translate it by a mere unbelievers, when we do not even know what the disbelief concerns, because it may be a mere image in the mind that we have come to distrust because it has come to us as a lie or mingled with lies. We disbelieve things may be as a knee jerk reacctionh and tha may indicate any understanding of what we pretend that we disbelieve when seen through other peopl'e eyes.
Kafara is to hide the truth, which is something very different from not believing that something is true. If you don't believe something, you cannot help it, but if you hide the truth deliberately you are indeed a wicked person.
So those who hide the truth deliberately and those who disociate Allah from his messengers and those who kid themselves that they can take a middle course between truth and hiding the truth, are in fact hiding the truth. And what happens to those who hide the truth is that they do not need anybody's help to get in trouble and humiliation, they are getting themselves into it, because the consequence of hiding the truth the truth of themselves or any truth is that when you keep it under, when it comes out it will wreck havoc on those it catches umprepared for its coming to light.
Salaam
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So those who hide the truth deliberately and those who disociate Allah
Those who deny the truth are the same that separate Allah from the messengers. Little confused about the "and", sounds like they are different people. Again, a translation issue. My (Swedish) Quran does not have an "and those who".
It states "Those who deny Allah and his messengers and want to separate the belief in Allah and the belief of the messengers and say "we believe in some but deny others" and try to find a middle way between belief and denial. These people have denied the truth and Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment.Not sure what it means....Huruf your explanation is good, forgive me for not understanding it fully.
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Well, here are some other translations;
Sahih International
Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between -
Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.
Muhsin Khan
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.
Shakir
Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His messengers and say We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that.
These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.
Dr. Ghali
Surely the ones who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and would make a distinction between Allah and His Messengers, and say, "We believe in some, and disbelieve in some (others), " and would take to themselves a way in-between, (Literally a way between that; i.e. away between this and that).
Those are they (who are) truly the disbelievers; and We have readied for the disbelievers a degrading torment.
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Yes I see what the translations say, but the thing is that the believers disbelievers is a word very tainted and which finally conveys a very different thing according tot he person who receives it. Semantically it is not a mater of belief what the Qur'an alludes to. It is matter of moral attitude, which si very different. You may believe or disbelieve something honestly because you do not find cause to belief or disbelieve, but there is nothing wrong with you attitude. You understanding may be defective, but it is not guilty. On the other hand kufr, kafir, kafara is another matter altogether. It is a wilful determination to undermine truth, make it unreachable, make others deviate... That is guilty. Disbelief may be honest, kufr is never honest because it entails hiding the truth which you know is the truth. The basic, radical meaning of the root is cover, hide... The disbelieve part is a construction based on sociological understandings, not something which is extractable directly from the Qur'an. And there are injunctions in the honourable Qur'an clearly mandating to respect and honour thos people who do not have the same beliefs but who nonentheless do not harm you or fight you. On the other hand a believer is a mu'min in the usual vocabulary, which again is a moral attitude, not a matter of a creed. If you believe you act accordingly, if you do not act accordingly, obviously you belief is defective in whatever degree.
The Qur'an would have said, "whose who are muminun, but it does not say that, or anything like it. It talks about k-f-r, verb or noun.In view of this kind of situations, is why I think that whenever something like this is discussed that the best would be to keep to Qur'an arabic terminology, otherwise the confusion and the feeling of being led by the nose of those who cannot determine on the Arabic by themselves is hard on those who try to understand.
In this case, I would do away with disbelieve or deny and say kafaru or yakfaru which is the verb in past or present and would do away also with "disbelievers" ans say "kafirun". That may sound unnecesarily untranslated, but if we are after understanding rather than gracious language, it is much better. Kafir is not disbeliever or non believer. Kafir is willful concealer, in this case, of truth.
As translations go, sometimes checking different ones, like Emil shows, helps, sometimes it does not or does not sufficiently. So it is good that there are forums like this where those things can be ventilated. And as a general observation on translations, we must not forget where they, in general, come from. They come from a religious mindset which has shaped the religious language in the Christian world for many centuries. When translators take up the Qur'an the drink from that pool of the religious language which pertains to that mindset. And they shoot the Qur'an effectively in many occasions. We must imperiously get out of that mindset, and become virgins when taking up the Qur'an, because it has nothing to do with the mindset reflected in that religious language. In general the Qur'an, the divine message it brings, has been "kafared" (allow me this licence of mingled language) by that filtre of religious mindset which it is made to go through on translation. Many or all translations made by muslims, suffer from the same problem to lesser or larger extent, because when picking the language they also drink from the same pool and because, sociological islam, religious islam has also suffered almost from the inception, the colonisation of christian and jewish concepts. So it is really a task to get through this and the work of froums like this and of daring honest people must be commended, even when they blunder. As humans, blundering is guranteed for us, but we must take the trouble to search, and not be deterred.
Excuse the sermon. Being a girl I could have become a catholic priest and speak fantastically from a pulpit. They do not know what they have missed. ignore ignore
Regards, salaam
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
This is one of the claims of Al Shafi who understood obey God and obey the messenger as two seperate sources. One he is said was the Quran the other the Sunnah. He also claimed when the Quran says the Book and the wisdom he says that wsdom is the Sunnah. Thereby Shafi seperates God from the prophet by making it appear the "and" here is refering to two seperate sources.
It never occured to Shafi that if you obey the Quran you are obeying the messenger and if you are following the Quran you are following the wisdom.
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Salaam Huruf,
I agree with you that our classic understanding of the word kafir is flawed. Kafir is someone who knowingly rejects the truth. Also, when we look at the message of the Qur'an we don't see Allah trying to convince people of His existence. The Qur'an assumes that everyone knows God exists (though some people choose to conceal their belief), but that most people commit shirk (set up partners with Him).
Anyway, sorry I wasn't being clear. My point was actually about "separating God and His messenger" and what is being implied here. Who are those who separate God and His messenger? Do some people here fall into that category?
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This is one of the claims of Al Shafi who understood obey God and obey the messenger as two seperate sources. One he is said was the Quran the other the Sunnah. He also claimed when the Quran says the Book and the wisdom he says that wsdom is the Sunnah. Thereby Shafi seperates God from the prophet by making it appear the "and" here is refering to two seperate sources.
It never occured to Shafi that if you obey the Quran you are obeying the messenger and if you are following the Quran you are following the wisdom.
So you're saying separating God and His messenger implies regarding the "Sunnah" as a completely separate source of Islam? Interesting, that never occured to me. I think your "tafsir" may be correct because Shafi's opinion is clearly unacceptable according to many verses in the Qur'an.
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Salam Recluse
Then what do you think is that verse trying to tell us by warning us "not to separate God from His messenger"? After all, everyone who believes the Qur'an is a divine message already accepts Muhammed as His prophet.
But the verse states not to sparate God from his messengerS - plural, when i understand it right??
So it points to the fact, that God send all the time messengerS to warn the people- every messenger is as the other we (as believers) should not make any distinction between the messengers and accept ALL - because they bring ALL THE SAME MESSAGE.
People may not like the arabic messenger and reject him and his message- so in fact those who reject the truth (kafirs) from whatever reason, out of pride, arrogance, or because they do not fit the requirements and prohibitions, etc.= those who reject Allah
So the Aya don't speak about the one who believes the Quran.
I don't know, if this was helpful?
peace -
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
The Israelites often found justification for rejecting Jesus and later the Quran because of their loyalty to the Talmud claiming its from Moses and David and Solomon etc.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
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When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
I would like to add a verse to the equation
1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
What's shockin' about it?
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What's shockin' about it?
Like I said here he looked at "seperate Allah for his messenger" and saw the arguments Sunnis bring that Quranist are seperating the Sunnah from Islam.
This was Al Shafi's logic. Shafi seperated the Quran from the Sunnah by claiming obey God and his messenger is talking about the Quran and the Sunnah as two seperate sources.
It never occurs to Sunnis that if you follow the Quran you are following the prophet's sunnah because they are one.
The actual verse he stated is not talking about that but Sunnis use that.
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This is what I understand from this verse
Muhsin Khan
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.
This is how I understand it when I read this verse. Albeit I almost panicked for a second, when I first read it, however I quickly realized this has nothing to do with hadiths, but it's really about rejecting messengers. For example those that reject Prophet Muhammad having been a messenger from Allah, are addressed in this verse, in my opinion.
on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
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on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
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I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? .
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
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Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? P.
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
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I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
Thank you so much for these comforting words. You have no idea how much lighter the chip on my shoulder just got ))). I can sleep now! Al hamdulilah. I pray you are right and may we all be guided to the right path always.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
Hmm... Something shocking to me as well.
Does this mean the Sunni way of praying for the prophet is fine by the Quran?