Verses 4:150 and 4:151 - shocking?
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
This is one of the claims of Al Shafi who understood obey God and obey the messenger as two seperate sources. One he is said was the Quran the other the Sunnah. He also claimed when the Quran says the Book and the wisdom he says that wsdom is the Sunnah. Thereby Shafi seperates God from the prophet by making it appear the "and" here is refering to two seperate sources.
It never occured to Shafi that if you obey the Quran you are obeying the messenger and if you are following the Quran you are following the wisdom.
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Salaam Huruf,
I agree with you that our classic understanding of the word kafir is flawed. Kafir is someone who knowingly rejects the truth. Also, when we look at the message of the Qur'an we don't see Allah trying to convince people of His existence. The Qur'an assumes that everyone knows God exists (though some people choose to conceal their belief), but that most people commit shirk (set up partners with Him).
Anyway, sorry I wasn't being clear. My point was actually about "separating God and His messenger" and what is being implied here. Who are those who separate God and His messenger? Do some people here fall into that category?
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This is one of the claims of Al Shafi who understood obey God and obey the messenger as two seperate sources. One he is said was the Quran the other the Sunnah. He also claimed when the Quran says the Book and the wisdom he says that wsdom is the Sunnah. Thereby Shafi seperates God from the prophet by making it appear the "and" here is refering to two seperate sources.
It never occured to Shafi that if you obey the Quran you are obeying the messenger and if you are following the Quran you are following the wisdom.
So you're saying separating God and His messenger implies regarding the "Sunnah" as a completely separate source of Islam? Interesting, that never occured to me. I think your "tafsir" may be correct because Shafi's opinion is clearly unacceptable according to many verses in the Qur'an.
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Salam Recluse
Then what do you think is that verse trying to tell us by warning us "not to separate God from His messenger"? After all, everyone who believes the Qur'an is a divine message already accepts Muhammed as His prophet.
But the verse states not to sparate God from his messengerS - plural, when i understand it right??
So it points to the fact, that God send all the time messengerS to warn the people- every messenger is as the other we (as believers) should not make any distinction between the messengers and accept ALL - because they bring ALL THE SAME MESSAGE.
People may not like the arabic messenger and reject him and his message- so in fact those who reject the truth (kafirs) from whatever reason, out of pride, arrogance, or because they do not fit the requirements and prohibitions, etc.= those who reject Allah
So the Aya don't speak about the one who believes the Quran.
I don't know, if this was helpful?
peace -
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
The Israelites often found justification for rejecting Jesus and later the Quran because of their loyalty to the Talmud claiming its from Moses and David and Solomon etc.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
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When it says that those people believe in some Messengers but rejects others, I take it to mean groups who perhaps believed in Moses but not Muhammad. Or any other group that believed in any particular Messenger but would not believe in Muhammad.
A following verses states
Pickthall
But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)Shakir
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (4152)This verse seems to me to reiterate that all of the Messengers who bring the same Message and the Proof that we treat them equally. It reminds me of the verse that we do not take one Messenger as better over another (2285) - e.g. a trend amongst some is to say Prophet Muhammad is the best of creation and essentially saying he is also best of the Messengers.
I would like to add a verse to the equation
1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
What's shockin' about it?
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What's shockin' about it?
Like I said here he looked at "seperate Allah for his messenger" and saw the arguments Sunnis bring that Quranist are seperating the Sunnah from Islam.
This was Al Shafi's logic. Shafi seperated the Quran from the Sunnah by claiming obey God and his messenger is talking about the Quran and the Sunnah as two seperate sources.
It never occurs to Sunnis that if you follow the Quran you are following the prophet's sunnah because they are one.
The actual verse he stated is not talking about that but Sunnis use that.
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This is what I understand from this verse
Muhsin Khan
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.
This is how I understand it when I read this verse. Albeit I almost panicked for a second, when I first read it, however I quickly realized this has nothing to do with hadiths, but it's really about rejecting messengers. For example those that reject Prophet Muhammad having been a messenger from Allah, are addressed in this verse, in my opinion.
on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
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on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
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I also think that there are other messengers (but not prophets) after Muhammad, but I don't think that has to be a scary thought. You can't be blamed for not heeding a message you never heard. As long as you're paying attention to what's available to you, I don't think anyone has to worry about missing something. Or am I guessing wrong in why the thought of more messengers is scary to you?
Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? .
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
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Hi D.
Well it's scary to me because of the punishment Allah says I would get if I disbelieved in any of his messengers...see my problem? P.
There are people everywhere popping up claiming to be messengers from God...I'm scared I might reject a true messenger one day, while trying to sift through the crazies.
I want so badly not to be blind , and be able to identify a true messenger from Allah. I'm afraid I'd be too dumb, deaf or blind to see the truth.
I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
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I see your point, but is it really "disbelief" if the message seemed off? I don't think that God would play games with us and send someone who would be dismissed as crazy with a true message. I just tell myself that as long as I'm not intentionally dismissing anything out of hand, God won't punish me for an oversight. Also, the Quran says that people are only held accountable for what they were capable of. So, if a message were to come to you, but you didn't understand it, I don't think that's your fault or something you could be punished for.
In the end, I think as long as you're worried about missing a message, you're very unlikely to. Your eyes are open too wide for anything to slip by undetected. ;D
Thank you so much for these comforting words. You have no idea how much lighter the chip on my shoulder just got ))). I can sleep now! Al hamdulilah. I pray you are right and may we all be guided to the right path always.
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What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
Hmm... Something shocking to me as well.
Does this mean the Sunni way of praying for the prophet is fine by the Quran?
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Like I said here he looked at "seperate Allah for his messenger" and saw the arguments Sunnis bring that Quranist are seperating the Sunnah from Islam.
This was Al Shafi's logic. Shafi seperated the Quran from the Sunnah by claiming obey God and his messenger is talking about the Quran and the Sunnah as two seperate sources.
It never occurs to Sunnis that if you follow the Quran you are following the prophet's sunnah because they are one.
The actual verse he stated is not talking about that but Sunnis use that.
To me, "We believe in some but reject others" seems to clear up that it's referencing people who claim to believe in God but reject His prophets.
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on a side note, I get the notion that this verse is also saying that if you disbelieve in a messenger, you disbelieve in Allah. Quite scary to me, since I believe there may be messengers after Muhammad (not prophets).
I've been dealing with this issue since meeting Submitters and learning about Rashad Khalifa. So much of what he said makes complete sense. Preaching Quran alone, chapter 74. Then he goes and says all this nutty stuff outside of Quran. I haven't been able to accept his messengership claim with a clear conscience. But I'm also afraid to bash him. The matter seems so unclear to me. Then there are many Submitters who say he was indeed a messenger but was fallible. Ok, no one is perfect. But could a messenger really be so wrong on so many issues? I don't know. And does it really matter to my salvation whether he was or wasn't a messenger? I don't know. Confusing and stressful!
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I've been dealing with this issue since meeting Submitters and learning about Rashad Khalifa. So much of what he said makes complete sense. Preaching Qurain alone, chapter 74. Then he goes and says all this nutty stuff outside of Quran. I haven't been able to accept his messengership claim with a clear conscience. But I'm also afraid to bash him. The matter seems so unclear to me. Then there are many Submitters who say he was indeed a messenger but was fallible. Ok, no one is perfect. But could a messenger really be so wrong on so many issues? I don't know. And does it really matter to my salvation whether he was or wasn't a messenger? I don't know. Confusing and stressful!
I know how that feels! Im confused about Rashad Khalifa as well. For some reason I get a bad feeling about him, which is why im not convinced he was a messenger, but I know that not a logical reason. I admire his research but I disagree with a lot of it including the subjectivity Farouk A Peru discussed in his debate with Edip Yuksel.
Who knows, perhaps I am wrong. May Allah guide me. But for now I just cant accept him with a clear consience like you said. -
What to make of these verses?
4150
"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway"
4151
"They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment."
There is no need to get shocked. If you understand the verse in this way there is no problem.
"Those who deny Allah and His Rusul, those who believe in the Laws of Allah operating in the outer universe (i.e. Laws of Nature) but do not believe in the Laws given by Him through His Rusul for the guidance of mankind, and those who accept a part of these Laws, rejecting the others and desire to take a course in-between, all of them are truly unbelievers."
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_004.htm
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I would like to add a verse to the equation
1047 And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
It's still pretty much the same for me... as the Reminder is preserved and that Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets (3340) it would indicate that we have had our Messenger and Message.
What are your thoughts? )