:: Sajda is not prostration ::

Bigmo

do not have much knowledge and have not thought much about this topic to say anything more.

If sujud is a physical prostration then plugging in this definition to sura 2218, simply doesn't make sense. How does sun, moon, mountains, trees...physically prostrate? when i thought about the explanation that mmkhan proposed, it does makes sense and so I shared my thoughts. Now, could sujud also mean physical prostration, I suppose it could depending on the context and subject matter. And that is where I need to stop. I have not digested all of mmkhans post and you bring up some good points as well.

God willing will come to a better understanding in time.

The point however is not how do they prostrate but what sujood means.

And thy Lord revealed to the bee `Make thou houses in the hills and in the trees and in the trellises which they build,

`Then eat all manner of fruits, and follow the ways taught to thee by thy Lord and which have been made easy for thee.' There comes from their bellies a drink of varying hues. Therein is a healing for mankind. Surely, in that is Sign for a people who reflect.

We may not understand this but the point is not how but what the term sujood means.

Timur

Peace Bigmo.

The point however is not how do they prostrate but what sujood means.

If you define sujud as physical prostration as performed by the sunnis, the "how" is already given. Hence you have already admitted that sujud does not mean physical prostration, haven't you?

Wakas

Btw - still digesting Wakas article on sujud. I read it once, twice, thrice. Many times. Is it just me?

Can you clarify the issue you are having? i.e. is it an issue of uncertainty about points made, or, you simply like reading it often as it's good?

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo.

If you define sujud as physical prostration as performed by the sunnis, the "how" is already given. Hence you have already admitted that sujud does not mean physical prostration, haven't you?

I never said anything about as performing by Sunnis. In fact every religion we know of had prostration or bowing or kneeling of some sort. This is how humans pray. This is how the previous scriptures understands it. You do not have to prostrate and even the Quran gave multiple ways to worship like standing, kneeling or bowing or even doing tawaf as some religions do.

Baha'i Faith

In the Bah?'? Faith, a single prostration is performed before the recitation of each obligatory prayer and in the case of traveling, a prostration is performed in place of each missed obligatory prayer in addition to saying "Glorified be God, the Lord of Might and Majesty, of Grace and Bounty". However, if unable to do so, saying "Glorified be God" is sufficient. There are specifics about where the prostration can take place including, "God hath granted you leave to prostrate yourselves on any surface that is clean..." (#10) and "He also condemns such practices as prostrating oneself before another person and other forms of behaviour that abase one individual in relation to another". #57

Buddhism

Main article Prostration (Buddhism)

In Buddhism, prostrations are universally used to build confidence to and gratitude for the gifts of the Triple Gem
the Awakened One (Sanskrit/Pali Buddha) (in this meaning, to own potential)
his teaching (Sanskrit Dharma; Pali Dhamma)
his community (Sangha) of noble disciples (ariya-savaka).

White-clad deacon candidates prostrate before the altar of the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in Los Angeles during a diaconate ordination liturgy.
In addition, different schools within Buddhism use prostrations in various ways, such as the Tibetan tantric preliminary practice of a 100,000 prostrations as a means of overcoming pride (see Ng?ndro).

Greek Orthodox pilgrims making prostrations at Golgotha in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem.
Christianity

In Christianity, the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican churches use prostrations during the imposition of Holy Orders, Religious Profession and the Consecration of Virgins. In the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches, prostrations ("profound bows&quot can be used in place of genuflections for those who are unable to genuflect. The prostration is always performed before God, and in the case of holy orders, profession oder consecration the candidates prostrate theirself in front of the altar which is a symbol of Christ.

Full prostrations, lit., "low bows" (zemnoy poklon) are common in Eastern Orthodox worship, and are used in conjunction with the Sign of the Cross, at specific moments during the services and when venerating relics or icons. However, the use of full prostrations is traditionally discouraged on the Lord's Day (Sunday), during Paschaltide (Easter season) and on Great Feasts of the Lord. During Great Lent, and Holy Week, prostrations are especially encouraged in all the Eastern Churches (see Prayer of St. Ephraim). Orthodox Christian will also make prostrations in front of people (though in this case without the Sign of the Cross, as it is not an act of veneration or divine worship), such as the bishop, one's spiritual father or one another when asking forgiveness (in particular at the Vespers service which begins Great Lent on the afternoon of the Sunday of Forgiveness.) Those who are physically unable to make full prostrations may instead substitute metanias (bows at the waist).

Oriental Orthodox also prostrate during daily prayers. Syrian Orthodox Christians should prostrate during all daily prayers, except on days which the Holy Liturgy is celebrated.

Hinduism

In Hinduism, eight-limbed (ashtanga pranama) and five-limbed (panchanga pranama) prostrations are included in the religious ritual of puja.

Jainism

In Jainism, there is a great importance placed on prostration, especially when a devotee is in the temples or in front of high souls. It represents the surrendering of ego.

Judaism

In Judaism, the Tanakh and Talmudic texts as well as writings of Gaonim and Rishonim indicate that prostration was very common among Jewish communities until some point during the Middle Ages. In Mishneh Torah, Maimonides states full prostration (with one's body pressed flat to the earth) should be practiced at the end of the Amidah, recited thrice daily. Members of the Karaite denomination practice full prostrations during prayers. Traditionally, Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews prostrated during Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, as did Yemenite Jews during the Tachanun part of daily Jewish prayer. Ethiopian Jews traditionally prostrated during a holiday specific to their community known as Sigd. Sigd comes from a root word meaning prostration in Ge'ez, Aramaic, and Arabic. There is a movement among Talmide haRambam to revive prostration as a regular part of daily Jewish worship.

Sikhism

Sikhs prostrate in front of Guru Granth Sahib, the holy scripture of the Sikhs. Sikhs consider Guru Granth Sahib as their living Guru and the unchanging word of God thus, by prostrating, Sikhs present their head to their Guru, awaiting command, which is taken in the form of a hukamnama, or a random opening of Guru Granth Sahib to reveal an edict for the individual or congregation (similar to the ancient Roman practice of sortes sanctorum, a form of bibliomancy). Sikhs call the prostration mutha tekna ("lowering the forehead&quot. Whenever and however many times a Sikh is in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib he will prostrate, usually upon the initial sight of Guru Granth Sahib and again upon leaving the presence of Guru Granth Sahib. Sikhs, in their personal worship (morning Nitnem and evening Rehras), will prostrate upon the completion of prayers and the ardaas. The direction of prostration is not important as Sikhs place emphasis on the omnipresence of God however, if it is possible, Sikhs tend to prostrate in the direction in which bani (books containing the word of God, such as the Gutka Sahib or Pothi Sahib) are kept. Other prostrations practiced by Sikhs from an Indian culture are touching of the feet to show respect and great humility (generally done to grandparents and other family elders). Full prostration is reserved for Guru Granth Sahib, as prostration is considered to be the ultimate act of physical humility and veneration.

Other contexts

Kowtow in an Imperial Chinese court.
Outside of traditional religious institutions, prostrations are used to show deference to worldly power, in the pursuit general spiritual advancement and as part of a physical-health regimen.

Hawaii

In ancient Hawaii, a form of prostration known as kapu moe required all to prostrate in the presence of a naupio or a pio chief on the pain of death. The only people exempt from this were chiefs of the next grade the naha and wohi chiefs who were required to sit in their presence. Other Polynesian group are known to practice this.

Imperial China

In Imperial China, a form of prostration known as a ktou was used as a sign of respect and submission.

Japan

In Japan the name of the prostration used is called seiza or the more ancient term Dogeza was used as a sign of deep respect and submission for the elders of a family, guests, Samurai, Daimyo and the Emperor.

Martial arts

Shugyo in martial arts, particularly in the Shotokai and Kyokushin styles of Karate, it is a form of extreme spiritual discipline.

Yoga

Main article Surya Namaskara

In modern yoga practice, "sun salutations" (srya namaskra) are a regular part of practitioners' routines. Such a practice may be used for both maintaining physical well-being and spiritual attainment.

Yoruba "Doba'le"/"Ikun'le"

In traditional and contemporary Yoruba culture, younger male family and community members greet elders by assuming a position called "doba'le". The traditional, full Yoruba prostration involves the prostrator lying down almost prone with his feet extended behind his torso while the rest of his weight is propped up on both hands. This traditional form is being replaced by a more informal bow and touching the fingertips to the floor in front of an elder with one hand, while bending slightly at the knee. The female form of the greeting is the "ikun'le", a form of kneeling where the younger party bows to one or both knees in front of an elder relative or community member. Both gestures are widely practiced; to not perform them would be considered ill-mannered.

Modified versions of both greetings are also common in traditional Yoruba religious and cultural contexts in the African Diaspora, particularly in Brazil and Cuba.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration

mirjamnur

Salam Bigmo and all

thank you for your detailed post - the prostrate is actually among all peoples widespread.
So I come to a question that I have already asked in another topic We see that traditional Jews bind a black cube at their front-heads and do prostrate with this (on this?) ,the Shias prostrate on virgin soil of Qerbala and the 'normal' Muslims prostrate themselves in the direction of a black cube. Can we see here not quite clear how 'schaitanic' forces lead people to bow down before something other than Allah?
peace

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I am uncomfortable prostrating on this soil from Karbala down here, but sometimes I have to conceal my faith. To believe you have to prostrate on this, or as in the Jewish case, seems like inventing laws not authorized by God.

Praying towards the Kabah would be fine as long as it is a sanctified place. But I think the building is just covered in black, it is not meant to be like that. Also, I thought, keeping a building intact for thousands of years is difficult, buildings have a maximum age, despite maintenance. Sooner or later the building will deteriorate.

The Kabaah is just like the temple in Jerusalem used to be, a Beacon. You should pray towards something that reminds you of God, the Kabah has been serving that purpose, but now it has unfortunately been associated with idolatry pretty much. I studied the Bible and you can clearly see that people aimed their prayers towards the temple in Jerusalem, the House of God.

However, just like in the age of Muhammad, the Kabah has become a site for pagan worship, giving Allah partners.

If you study the Bible you can see in the New Testament that Jesus throws out people who use the temple in Jerusalem for other purposes than praying. So not only Kabah has been misused historically.

God bless you

mirjamnur

Salam Man of faith
thank you )

Man_of_Faith

Salaam again,

I did some research, since I got curious after my last post, and read information about the Kabah. I discovered that the Kabah was rebuilt 1627 due to rainwater causing the walls to collapse, it is not illogical that this natural phenomenon could cause it and the old structure was probably vulnerable. The probability that it happened more times over the thousands of years is high.

A remnant wall piece from the old Mosque is still present at the site. And did you know the kabah was not a cubic building?

The Kabah today is probably just a tiny bit of what it once was. And I doubt it was covered in black. It feels the form and black fabric is just to make it an item to worship, it feels like a statue, does it not remind you of pagan worship?

The Kabah today gives me a slight psychedelic feeling to be honest.

I am almost absolutely certain the location is the correct one and I even think Moses came there. I think it was the zamzam well that he came to. Now it is my theory, and I do not claim this, it is only in my philosophies. I also think the mountain Moses went to is somewhat north of Mecca.

I apologize sincerely to those who may have been offended by my words, but this feels like the Truth to me. I feel it has become an item of worship, this cube. It is not a building, it is an object of worship. I do not ridicule anyone for praying toward the Kabah, I do so myself, even if the old sacred Mosque is something else these days. But I certainly want to seek the Truth about the Kabah and I am open to other rational ideas and explanations too.

Someone said that there was a verse telling Moses people to turn their houses into Qiblahs? The word Qiblah seems to mean a house of prayer rather than a direction for prayer. I felt that Qiblah means a building with some special feature or features. I still think what makes a Qiblah.

The Bible talks about altars, do you think this item is just a piece of paganism or does it have to do with God's religion? Did it have any other use than for sacrifices? Could it be an item of worship which helps you focus on God or is it just a man-made invention?

Anyone thought about the verse which talks about dressing nice and be clean for the Masjid? I wonder why it says to eat and drink moderately in the same verse. I had that crazy thought that this word does not mean the same thing as it is thought to mean (Masjid). Was a really crazy and controversial thought, I know, but could not help it since it felt so incoherent with Masjid and eat and drink moderately in the same verse. Otherwise I suppose I simply cannot understand God and He knows better. Or does anyone have a rational explanation to this?

I say like Jewish Dude,

Just some crazy thoughts. ..

God bless you

Wakas

peace MofF, all,

A telling analysis of "qiblah" was done here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

change of qiblah - an understanding based on Quran
The information we can extract about the meaning of "qiblah", and the change, from these verses is as follows
this new change is in some way related to guiding to a straight/establishing path, and making the believers a balanced/moderate community
the qiblah which they were on was a great test (i.e. difficult), except those God guided, and their belief in such was not going to be for nothing
in this case the qiblah happens to be AMAH, but there are potentially many other qiblah, as individuals could have their own qiblah
in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal)" with "qiblah" and consequently likens AMAH to "race to the good" or at least we can say AMAH involves this. Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding.
the effects of this change will be less debate from the people, lead to God completing His favour, aid guiding, and bringing you all together.
wherever one is they should turn their wajh/purpose/consideration in the direction of AMAH, and from the contexts that likley involves being oriented towards the truth of your Lord, the good, and uniting of believers
To me, "turning one's wajh in the sky" in 2144 comes across as an idiom, so whilst it could be literally translated as "turning one's face IN the sky" it is implying one is directionless, aimless, floating/blowing in the wind, i.e. no plan/goal to progress, looking/searching for a way/resolution. Interestingly it is listed in 'Verbal Idioms of Quran' by Mustansir Mir but explained as he turned his face towards the heaven so often that it is added emphasis to say his face was IN the heaven, even though it literally is not. Perhaps, but that does not change the fact that it is taken by all to mean he was seeking guidance. The new qiblah resolves this, and is also pleasing, implying a possible easing of argumentation/hostility for the believers, which would tie in with "no debate against you".
As a side note, the only other use of "wly/turn" in these verses other than "turn+wajh" is 2148 "...he turns towards it (wijhatun/course/goal)", which is primarily figurative and not taken physical-directional by anyone. This may help indicate the type of turning being referred to in these verses.

Based on the above, usage of the root QBL in AQ, CAD meanings, and the only other occurrence of "qiblah" in 1087, in terms of likelihood for the meaning of "qiblah", in my view, are

focal-point - focus/centre of interest or activity
direction - general aim or purpose; a general way in which someone/something is developing
point-of-approach - a way in which to approaching something
counteraction - to oppose and mitigate the effects of by contrary action

Bigmo