:: Sajda is not prostration ::

Novice

I dont agree with your definition of angels ,MOF
how can we say anything about which we don't have knowledge .Quran says they have wings apart from that we dont have any description of angels .So any conclusion about angels will end up in imagination .
Verse 35.01
praise is to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

So as per 1588 Prophet had wings too. No wonder traditional translations are as under

(

Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them (the disbelievers), nor grieve over them. And lower your wings for the believers (be courteous to the fellow-believers). (8 Dr Mohsin

Strain not thine eyes (wistfully) at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them, nor grieve over them but lower thy wing (in gentleness) to the Believers. (8 Yousaf Ali

So Parvez do you also think that Prophet had wings?

parvez_mushtaq

the wings of angels are not the wings like bird or aeroplane. it must be something which we have no understanding , by eyes or by mind thats why they are hidden from sight ...

Of course you are correct ,Imran

parvez_mushtaq

@Khan

The only proof that you gave in your article is
Verse 230
230 And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

From this verse you have derived that Sajda = To accept the authority/position/honor given by Allah to whom He wills.
This verse does not support your claim .you claimed that since there was a transfer of authority from angels .all the angels accepted this authority change except eblees

In remaining all other verses in your article you have just substituted your derived formula .They are not the proofs

Since there was no such authority transfer so there is no question of giving honor to Adam alaisalam rather ALLAH subahanatala commanded all the angels TO make sujood TO Adam alaisalam .here it is evident that the sujood that ALLAH subhanatala referring is the physical prostration of humans because Quran is being addressed to humans .

Man_of_Faith

Imran,

Or... they have no wings at all but it is someone's mistaken understanding.

In 230 (before I found the real interpretation), I interpreted the sujud as that the angels paid homage to Adam, not necessarily physically prostrating. Sujud implies that you do something submissive to someone such as being respectful. It also implies obedience by submission to authority, but usually connoting that you are the opposite of cocky.

Its morphological meaning (for those who accept my knowledge) is something like "give out from the spirit" kind of implying that you share of yourself for some purpose, e.g. you let someone else have their way.

Be well
Amenuel

imrankhawaja

Imran,

Or... they have no wings at all but it is someone's mistaken understanding.

yeh you can say that, becoz the thing we understand as wing is a tool that makes you fly...

and obviously for things we see and observe need wings to fly may be angels dnt need wings at all for fly , actually we have no exact understanding about their nature , we human always understand what is apparent to us,

In 230 (before I found the real interpretation), I interpreted the sujud as that the angels paid homage to Adam, not necessarily physically prostrating. Sujud implies that you do something submissive to someone such as being respectful. It also implies obedience by submission to authority, but usually connoting that you are the opposite of cocky.

may be the mechansim of universe from the rising and setting of sun, the growth of fruits vegetable, water cycle , gravity, attraction, laws of nature all are some of the sujood of angels to nature and now these things are under the caretaking of human beings , thats why the duty assigned to them at first they object but as soon they realsie the outer garment of human is although not worthy but the real human is much more different than outer garment(flesh) so thats why angels said to rabb , you know what we dnt know and we are willingly ready to serve humanity by your order.

thats why water , fruits stars, sun moon, grass, metals, everything is under the care taking of human... a hidden side of these things are in the controlling of angels and all beings are connected to rabb..

so creation is not seperate from rab, its a circle of illusion in which we all are in,, bt our lord is high above whatever we can imagine,, becoz rab is not illusion rabb is the only reality of everything .. every creature, every energy...

peace

mmkhan

@Khan

The only proof that you gave in your article is
Verse 230
230 And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

From this verse you have derived that Sajda = To accept the authority/position/honor given by Allah to whom He wills.
This verse does not support your claim .you claimed that since there was a transfer of authority from angels .all the angels accepted this authority change except eblees

In remaining all other verses in your article you have just substituted your derived formula .They are not the proofs

Since there was no such authority transfer so there is no question of giving honor to Adam alaisalam rather ALLAH subahanatala commanded all the angels TO make sujood TO Adam alaisalam .here it is evident that the sujood that ALLAH subhanatala referring is the physical prostration of humans because Quran is being addressed to humans .

Peace Parvez,

Brother before reaching the conclusion please do answer some of my questions below

1- Why Allah said to malaaika that he is going to make in earth the khalifa? Was is necessary to inform them?
2- What means khalifa? Please share your understanding of this Arabic word.
3- Why did malaaika say "...and we declare Your praise and sanctify You...". Were they reminding Allah? Or comparing with humans?

All questions taken from 230 only.

Thanks and awaiting your reply.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

parvez_mushtaq

Peace Parvez,

......

1- Why Allah said to malaaika that he is going to make in earth the khalifa? Was is necessary to inform them?

Firstly , we and malaaika were/are not the only creation of ALLAH Subhanavatala.your question is correct ,why ALLAH Subhanavtala should choose malaaika to witness about the creation of human.
The answer is very simple .ALLAH subanhanavatal knew everything ,from beginning to end .By informing malaaika he was also laying the carpet for eblees .eblees as well as all the malaaika witnessed the creation of Adam alaisalam otherwise ,eblees will never claim himself to be superior than Adam alaisalam .this fact is further proved by this verse
Verse 7.16
Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

2- What means khalifa? Please share your understanding of this Arabic word.

I will take the simplest meaning ,the meaning which you are also comfortable .in your words "The word explains it all, which means to take over one's position"

3- Why did malaaika say "...and we declare Your praise and sanctify You...". Were they reminding Allah? Or comparing with humans?

So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .
everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

mmkhan

Firstly , we and malaaika were/are not the only creation of ALLAH Subhanavatala.your question is correct ,why ALLAH Subhanavtala should choose malaaika to witness about the creation of human.
The answer is very simple .ALLAH subanhanavatal knew everything ,from beginning to end .By informing malaaika he was also laying the carpet for eblees .eblees as well as all the malaaika witnessed the creation of Adam alaisalam otherwise ,eblees will never claim himself to be superior than Adam alaisalam .this fact is further proved by this verse
Verse 7.16
Satan] said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

Peace brother,

Thanks for your answers.

So, you think that to make iblis in error Allah made all this drama.
That also means Allah want iblis to be in error?

I will take the simplest meaning ,the meaning which you are also comfortable .in your words "The word explains it all, which means to take over one's position"

Whose position was taken over and given to Adam then?

So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .

So you mean Allah was informing malaaika about our creation? Or Adam?

everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

Red You are against 230
Or do you meant by saying "before our creation" is referring to you and me and not Adam!

Please clarify.

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brother,

Thanks for your answers.

So, you think that to make iblis in error Allah made all this drama.
That also means Allah want iblis to be in error?

......
.......
So you mean Allah was informing malaaika about our creation? Or Adam?
...
.......

I don't know why you are so much surprised .his dramas are going on everywhere even our life is a drama and the lone narrator of all dramas is ALLAH subhanavatal

lets follow the steps of that episode
1.ALLAH subhanvatala annoced about his creation to the malaaika
2.He made them witness the creation of Adam Alaisalam
3.All the maalika realized that his creation of Adam is subordinate to them
4.then ALLAH subhanavtala commanded all the malaaika to make sujood to his subordinate creation which was the actual test for malaaika
5.and eblis failed

BTW ,it was not my conclusion ,i have already quoted the verse 7.17

dont your remember the verse 3.54
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Moreover the good ,bad or ugly everything is from ALLAH subhanavatala
Verse 4.78
Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from Allah." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

Whose position was taken over and given to Adam then?

Who knows and who cares .i am here ,you are here and humans were there on this earth .i don't want to bother about the past kulafa of this earth because ALLAH subhanavatala did not gave those deteils in his book but however he has informed us about them

Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?

Verse 36.31
Have they not considered how many generations We destroyed before them - that they to them will not return?
Verse 36.32
And indeed, all of them will yet be brought present before Us.

Verse 81.55
And when the wild beasts are gathered

Do you want any more proofs ,Khan
BTW , can you give me a single physical proof which you can correlate with quranic verse for your claim.just give one physical proof that angels were on this earth before us and correlate with Quranic verse as i have done .

Red You are against 230
Or do you meant by saying "before our creation" is referring to you and me and not Adam!

Please clarify.

how i went against the Verse 2.30,khan

Once again i will repeat my previous quote

..................................
So the meaning of The word = to take over one's position .it is obvious ,in the history of the world , we (The humans) are not the first .if we write a book about the history of the world and each page representing a billion years then our history will occupy only a few pages .i mean one or two pages .
everywhere on the earth there is a proof of habitations of amazing creatures .science makes it very clear that those creatures never had a peaceful living .thus it proves that there was lot of blood shed upon the earth much before our creation . Malaaika knew about this blood shed because they were witnessing this blood shed .

i think you missed out this sentence .Further , i was referring about the things before Adam alaisalam

parvez_mushtaq

@khan
I am waiting for your replay , khan

mmkhan

I don't know why you are so much surprised .his dramas are going on everywhere even our life is a drama and the lone narrator of all dramas is ALLAH subhanavatal

lets follow the steps of that episode
1.ALLAH subhanvatala annoced about his creation to the malaaika
2.He made them witness the creation of Adam Alaisalam
3.All the maalika realized that his creation of Adam is subordinate to them
4.then ALLAH subhanavtala commanded all the malaaika to make sujood to his subordinate creation which was the actual test for malaaika
5.and eblis failed

BTW ,it was not my conclusion ,i have already quoted the verse 7.17

dont your remember the verse 3.54
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

Moreover the good ,bad or ugly everything is from ALLAH subhanavatala
Verse 4.78
Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All are from Allah." So what is with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

Peace brother,

Better I will keep my mouth shut on this -X &

Who knows and who cares .i am here ,you are here and humans were there on this earth .i don't want to bother about the past kulafa of this earth because ALLAH subhanavatala did not gave those deteils in his book but however he has informed us about them

Then what is the purpose to inform us about this?

Verse 50.36
And how many a generation before them did We destroy who were greater than them in power and had explored throughout the lands. Is there any place of escape?

Verse 36.31
Have they not considered how many generations We destroyed before them - that they to them will not return?
Verse 36.32
And indeed, all of them will yet be brought present before Us.

Verse 81.55
And when the wild beasts are gathered

Do you want any more proofs ,Khan

I don't see any prove in the aayaat quoted. Sorry bro.

BTW , can you give me a single physical proof which you can correlate with quranic verse for your claim.just give one physical proof that angels were on this earth before us and correlate with Quranic verse as i have done .how i went against the Verse 2.30,khan

Once again i will repeat my previous quote i think you missed out this sentence .Further , i was referring about the things before Adam alaisalam

Already given bro but you fail to see it. And I cannot make you see but only Allah.
Seek His help, that's all I can say.

mmkhan

@khan
I am waiting for your replay , khan

Peace brother,

Sorry to make you wait... I was busy. My apologize.

parvez_mushtaq

Peace brother,

Better I will keep my mouth shut on this -X &

I don't know why you want to keep your mouth sealed .Don't you believe that everything is from ALLAH subhanvatala .Shitan became Shitan by ALLAH's will .

Then what is the purpose to inform us about this?

I think you want to start every thing over again .i have given all the necessary verses as proofs for my argument

I don't see any prove in the aayaat quoted. Sorry bro.

every time the archeologist unearth some dinosaur or some civilization they prove these ayahs .

Already given bro but you fail to see it. And I cannot make you see but only Allah.
Seek His help, that's all I can say.

Sorry khan , i cannot read between the lines and i cannot read beneath the pages.if you have that talent make your point explicitly

parvez_mushtaq

@khan
I am waiting for your replay , khan

Its Ok ,khan it was just a reminder .after all it is your wish to answer or to ignore

jkhan

salamun alaykum

I have a question is sajda is not physical then how did they recognize when the people had prostrated? It seems as though whatever prostration is they did it as the same time and together in groups which would be hard if it was other than physical.

4102 And when you are among them and lead them in salaa, let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

This is an old thread... but it is really important to me nowadays.,... few of my friends strongly insisting me and some recommend to prostrate physically....

My mind is not accepting it...
btw to answer what is highlighted.. Yes other group can definitely know once they prostrated.. it is not physical, How? IT SAY THOSE WHO PROSTRATED TO BE BEHIND YOU... it is clear that an action is taking place.. what is the action? Action they step backward.. so those who not yet prayed comes to know that These already prayed and submited/sujud.. so that's why they went behind others..

jkhan

And when it is said to them, "Bow" they do not bow.

This is one of the those touching verses, that makes me ponder..
Because, Bow = Ruku / Kneeling etc..
Why would one say Bow?

jkhan

383 “… . And to Him (Allah) surrender (Aslama) whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly … “

1315 “… And to Allah submit (Sujud) whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. ….”

What is common in the above two verses? Are these physical actions?
Is Verse 3.83 non physical while 1315 physical or both non physical?

Euphoric

I take as physical and metaphorical depending on the context. In Arabic it can be both.

hawk99

Peace

Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done.

Apparently both physical and nonphysical depending on the context.

Also have a look at this website. http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

peace

jkhan

I take as physical and metaphorical depending on the context. In Arabic it can be both.

Thank you..

Yes it can be both depending on Arabic culture.. I meant the word sujud.. But does Allah want us to physically Sujud? That's the key?

What about 383 Does it mean physical? It is not word sujud but aslam same as Islam..
Is physical action without any emotions of heart or understanding really worthy? All conventional Muslims do prostrate physically it means they obey God physically.. Right.. They define prostrate to God.. Not ambiguous in it.. Will Allah accept physical prostration or submission of a person?
When they were told to prostrate they didn't prostrate... This is a word in day of ressurection.. All conventional Muslims can say OMG we did physically prostrate day and night 17 times and even extra.. We never rejected in worshipping you... Is physical prostration overwhelm?

I really wonder if what all angels did was physical prostration to Adam.. I think iblees also would have done it? Coz it was the absolute opportunity for him further hide his disbelief.. Just prostrate with all others lightly and just neglect... But God knows what's in hearts.. God knew iblees didn't submit...