How can "salat" mean "learning connection/reading the Qur'an"
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I just need to say that the main argument against salat is that previous generations didn't have anything to recite right? But that could be wrong becouse they had the Book - the same book in all times.
Also ther is one argument against salat as ritual prayer where in one ayat mushriks are establishing salat, but the writer assumed that the mushriks means polytheist which also might not be true since it can mean whoever associates with the word of God (which we see nowadays amongst the hadeeth people)
Anyway we have to be careful about this its very important in the lives of the believers.
I am not for or against but I have to say if some of the arguments , in my opinion, don't stand.
Peace. -
peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlQuote
4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 546, 186, 2096, 3050.
The word "seema" (root Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2273, 746, 748, 4730, 5541. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD."sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.
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Peace,
Ok, but to me it does.
God bless you
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peace MofF,
That may well be the case, but I much prefer an evidence-based discussion. For example I have seen many say salat means "prayer" but very few who actually present a reasonable case. This topic has been discussed many many times in this forum. By far the best threads can be found in the compilation of links thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
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peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlQuote
"sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.Peace Wakas,
It appears that the Quran contains both obeisance (mental) as well as (physical)
prostration. Why did you translate rukkaan as inclining/humbling instead of bowing?48/29
Are you implying that there is no physical bowing in Quran also?
peace
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peace hawk99,
RK3 has various classical arabic meanings. What I am implying in this case is that a solid case for "bowing" in salat from Quran is difficult to make. One can bow if they wish however.
Also I note you did not respond to any of the issues raised about 4829 yet you seemingly quoted it in favour of physical prostration.
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peace hawk99,
Re 4829
Discussed here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
Quote
"sujud" meaning physical prostration has many issues.Peace Wakas,
Outstanding link, very informative, however it appears there is physical sjd in Quran.
see 17/107017.107
Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha
yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before
it - when it is recited to them, they fall upon their faces in prostration,017.109
Wayakhirroona lil-athqani yabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
Sahih International And they fall upon their faces weeping, and the Qur'an increases
them in humble submission.What is your opinion concerning these ayats.
God Bless
peace
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Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
Outstanding link, very informative, however it appears there is physical sjd in Quran.
see 17/107017.107
Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha
yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before
it - when it is recited to them, they fall upon their faces in prostration,017.109
Wayakhirroona lil-athqani yabkoona wayazeeduhum khushooAAan
Sahih International And they fall upon their faces weeping, and the Qur'an increases
them in humble submission.What is your opinion concerning these ayats.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.
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Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.
Yes, it does. Thank you
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Peace hawk,
let me give an answer, although I was not asked.
You already underlined what appears to be a physical prostration. Obviously you did not underline "sujjadan". Hence there is no problem in these verses that there is a physical prostration but
Moreover it not even likely that there is a prostration at all in 17107-109. Please compare with 2573.
And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s verses, they do not fall (yakhirru) on them deaf and blind.
Again the verb "kharra"/ to fall is used, but does anyone see a prostration here? Both 17107-109 and 2573 describe the same thing falling in a special mental state, when the verses of the great reading are recited. This mental state comprises being obedient/ submissive/ respectful/ hearing and obeying. 2573 is a different way to decribe this mental state. It does so by negating the opposite, which is clearly being deaf and blind (in an allegorical sense).
I hope this helps.
Peace.Thank you Timur,
I appreciate you taking time to respond, but to me 25/73 is clearly allegorical
while 17/107,109 is not. In 25/73 of the great reading it is saying "falls on deaf ears"
or "they ignore" while 17/107 should be taken literally.Peace hawk,
the word "sujjadan" is not linked to it. "Sujjadan" simply describes that the prostration takes place in an obedient/ submissive/ resprectful manner.
Peace.Agreed
SHAKIR And they fall down on their faces weeping, and it adds to their humility. 17/109
And what do we say in prostration? 017.108
Wayaqooloona subhana rabbina in kana waAAdu rabbina lamafAAoolan
YUSUFALI "And they say 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!'"Or God be glorified
Timur, do you perform the salat ritual?
peace
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peace hawk99,
I can't really add much more than what is written in the article.
If those verses are taken as a physical prostration then Quran is recommending to do so on one's chin. Also, if taken as such then is it implying they physically do this when Quran is read to them, and then there is the issue of consistency - all of which I discuss in the article. -
peace hawk99,
I can't really add much more than what is written in the article.
If those verses are taken as a physical prostration then Quran is recommending to do so on one's chin. Also, if taken as such then is it implying they physically do this when Quran is read to them, and then there is the issue of consistency - all of which I discuss in the article.Peace Wakas,
There is no issue of consistency because prostrate like many many words have more
than one meaning, but i digress. I would like to ask you, how do you worship God?peace
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Peace hawk 99
Brother Wakas's mindset already written in his websitehttp//mypercept.co.uk/articles/
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Peace hawk 99
Brother Wakas's mindset already written in his websitehttp//mypercept.co.uk/articles/
Peace Earthdom,
I read the link, I missed the point of it being his website, thank you, but just the
same, I was curious as to what is his procedure as far as worship is concerned.God Bless
peace
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peace,
There is no issue of consistency because prostrate like many many words have more
than one meaning, but i digress. I would like to ask you, how do you worship God?By "inconsistency" I primarily meant the "falling SJD" verses, I wrote, quote
"Essentially, the traditional understanding is treating a figurative/idiomatic expression as literal sometimes (i.e. when it suits them) and non-literal other times (i.e. when it suits them), with no distinguishing criteria other than it does not fit with their view. This haphazrd manner is not the word/logical precision par excellence that is AQ.
Now onto the consequences of this comparison IF one takes 124 and 12100 together to imply SJD means "prostration" (or even a physical bow), they MUST also take, using the same logic, the SJD in 8421 and 1958/3215 (i.e. the exact same comparison) to also mean "prostration/bow". Or if you take a physical prostration in either of 8421, 1958 or 3215 then you should do the same for all, unless there is a solid reason not to, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication would be, whenever one hears AQ, they must physically prostrate! Of course, no Traditional Muslim as far as I'm aware does this, or ever has, as it would be impractical and sometimes dangerous."
Some may argue, that "falling to the chin" is an idiom and describes the feeling of extreme humility when one prostrates, or similar explanation, so it is not actually a physical prostration to the chin, just a normal prostration. And may also argue that when Quran says "fall SJD" or simply "SJD" when hearing it being recited etc this is just some sort of emphatic phrase and is not meant literally or only applies during traditional prayer etc. Traditional commentators say this about 3215 for example.
Re my worship
I do not really use the term "worship", but I will often thank/praise God, dua/petition/call upon Him, read/study Quran and try to apply it in my life and/or it's principles. If you meant specifically "salat", see my view here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm -
Peace hawk99,
I think brother Wakas keeps God in his mind at all times without formally praying the traditional way although if he ever "talks" to God he prays even if he would deny it. Because I respect Wakas I will not write more.
Sorry Wakas for replying sarcastically in your place.
God bless you
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peace,
Some may argue, that "falling to the chin" is an idiom and describes the feeling of extreme humility when one prostrates, or similar explanation, so it is not actually a physical prostration to the chin, just a normal prostration.Your above quote is my take on prostration, wudu I also consider to be physical and
not allegorical. "Facing" the qiblah I also consider to be physical and not allegorical.A question I have is "How do you think congregational prayer should be made".
peace,
Re my worship
I do not really use the term "worship", but I will often thank/praise God, dua/petition/call upon Him, read/study Quran and try to apply it in my life and/or it's principles. If you meant specifically "salat", see my view here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmMaking dua'a is a form of worship,
and can be a means of making a personal request for help.What I mean by worship is, do you have a formalized pattern that you follow each
time you engage in reaching out to God, i.e., do you perform wudu with water as
per Quran or have you established you own rituals.May God Bless you
peace
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peace all,
MofF, I would not deny that I engage in "prayer" as long as one understands I mean "prayer" in the sense of calling upon God from time to time, not the Traditional Muslim prayer.
hawk99, you asked
"A question I have is "How do you think congregational prayer should be made".
I assume you are referring to the regular/timed salat, which I do not consider to mean prayer. My view is already given in the link in my previous post. If you still do not understand please be specific about what exactly."...do you have a formalized pattern that you follow each
time you engage in reaching out to God, i.e., do you perform wudu with water as
per Quran or have you established you own rituals."Again, this is stated in the link I gave you, quote
"To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
Verses linking slw to al quran 243-45, 4103, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778.
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. 2x per day)
When one undertakes this regular/timed salat, one should follow the specific guidelines given, e.g be clean , clear mind , moderate tone (although this may only apply when in groups due to the context of this verse) etc.
This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful), see 4103. Mumin is different to muslim."
In case it is not clear, I also view ablution in 56, 443 as physical-body actions. I researched alternatives but all had major problems.
In terms of "qiblah" I discuss this here http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
