Second Shahadah vs Actual Shahadah in the Quran

supportpeacenotwar

Not sure if I've posted this in the right place. If not, could the moderators please move it?

I'm talking to an atheist/skeptic about the second shahadah vs actual shahadah in the Quran. I'm keeping the argument simple and straightforward as I think the text itself reveals a very straightforward point.

They think that verse 631 does not indicate that a second shahadah is false. According to them, all it states is that the hypocrites are liars. I tried to tell them that the point about them being liars is twofold. On the one hand, their oath itself is a hypocritical lie against the actual shahadah and secondly that the hypocrites don?t really mean what they say. if they are hypocrites they are going to be liars, possibly on many levels, and what they say is a pretext. i.e. the hypocrites choose a testimony that Allah Himself does not use in the verse in question. Instead, Allah uses the word ?yalamu? which is know and refers to knowledge. Not testimony. This word appears very carefully placed there between the two testimonies stated in 631.

This is a crucial significance and has not changed by accident. The individual I?m speaking to thinks this is a ?s***y? argument because I?m just referring to one verse and then the actual ?first? testimony itself in the Quran rather than referring to things like archaeology. I?m aware there are coins with the original testimony. However, given that some people state that the Quran is not preserved, small differences that could easily be changed even by accident become essential in understanding the preservation of the Reminder.

I also stated that the shahadah in the Quran, as stated by Allah and creation is there is no God but Allah and that the "bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God" is conspicuously missing.

I think he doesn?t understand the simplicity of the argument, and that it?s not supposed to be ?grand? or anything special. It?s something anyone reading the Quran can find. I am not trying to make a complex and hugely profound point but I?m dealing with text as it is. The point here as well is that the testimony of faith is about the Oneness of God. It does not relate to other things and we do not take preference of a particular Messenger (2285) in the way the second shahadah does.

I just wanted to get some feedback from you guys. Do you think I should keep pushing this point?

Do you think this is the type of argument we should be presenting to atheists or is it too easily dismissed? because I think if he acknowledged the point he?d have to consider the question why this verse is like it is at all.

Or is it there something I have missed about the testimony that I should refer to?

supportpeacenotwar

Actually, having briefly reflected on it, I think I've decided I don't need to go over this point of the two testimonies.

Its one of those either you take it as a point of interest straight away or with a bit of explanation you study it more or you are willing to dismiss it off the cuff. I also think atheists would like to bring up 386 as problematic for the position that 631 shows the testimony of the hypocrites. Although I don't think it is at all, as it is referring to what has happened and not a declaration. Plus 2285 backs up the point anyway.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

From the start, when I "became Muslim", I felt it was silly to say that I witness that Muhammad is His messenger. It is to make Islam into something like an upgrade of an already existing religion, God?s religion, causing it to become a sect.

Well, in that case I can witness that dozens of other messengers were also doing this job too?

But I feel it would be insensible to ramble the names of dozens of messengers, which God already know were His servants.

Declaring that God is the only God is enough and it means you accept His religion and all that He sent down. You reinforce this testimony by living as He has taught you.

God bless you

supportpeacenotwar

Salaam,

From the start, when I "became Muslim", I felt it was silly to say that I witness that Muhammad is His messenger. It is to make Islam into something like an upgrade of an already existing religion, God?s religion, causing it to become a sect.

Well, in that case I can witness that dozens of other messengers were also doing this job too?

But I feel it would be insensible to ramble the names of dozens of messengers, which God already know were His servants.

Declaring that God is the only God is enough and it means you accept His religion and all that He sent down. You reinforce this testimony by living as He has taught you.

God bless you

Salaam,

that's exactly how I feel. It seems very odd to say any specific Messengers name. Why don't people say I bear witness the Quran is the book of Allah, or I bear witness that the original Torah and Gospel have been corrupted? It's like the story of the calf where people were not satisfied with what Moses stated to them. They wanted more and more until the task became difficult and the Quran states they barely believed.

GODsubmitter

Salaam,

From the start, when I "became Muslim", I felt it was silly to say that I witness that Muhammad is His messenger. It is to make Islam into something like an upgrade of an already existing religion, God?s religion, causing it to become a sect.

Well, in that case I can witness that dozens of other messengers were also doing this job too?

But I feel it would be insensible to ramble the names of dozens of messengers, which God already know were His servants.

Declaring that God is the only God is enough and it means you accept His religion and all that He sent down. You reinforce this testimony by living as He has taught you.

God bless you

Salaam,

that's exactly how I feel. It seems very odd to say any specific Messengers name. Why don't people say I bear witness the Quran is the book of Allah, or I bear witness that the original Torah and Gospel have been corrupted? It's like the story of the calf where people were not satisfied with what Moses stated to them. They wanted more and more until the task became difficult and the Quran states they barely believed.

Hello @supportpeacenotwar and @Man of Faith,

I feel the same as you and I agree with your posts. Thank you for writing it.

There is only One God, but many prophets, messengers, teachers and helpers.
The main thing in our life is our relationship with God.
All the rest should only help that.

I thank God for giving us all so many possibilities to connect to Him, and I ask God to forgive me for whatever shortcomings and mistakes I might make.

Peace to you all.

supportpeacenotwar

Hello @supportpeacenotwar and @Man of Faith,

I feel the same as you and I agree with your posts. Thank you for writing it.

There is only One God, but many prophets, messengers, teachers and helpers.
The main thing in our life is our relationship with God.
All the rest should only help that.

I thank God for giving us all so many possibilities to connect to Him, and I ask God to forgive me for whatever shortcomings and mistakes I might make.

Peace to you all.

Peace,

That's a beautiful sentiment. Thank you for your responses. The simplicity of the declaration of faith seems to be only understood by those who truly care to bring themselves closer to God.

In terms of the original point of this thread, I learnt quite a bit in the short amount of time I spoke to this individual - about patience as well . Maybe I said something that slightly offended him although I never meant to and that was not my intention and I still don't fully get it because there was a breakdown in communication really. And this person is very outspoken about criticisms about Islam which made it slightly more puzzling. I ended up being called "weird" and what with swear words, I think my time with this individual has drawn to a close. It goes to show debate has its place but limitations. Life is one big learning experience. May Allah (swt) guide us to what is best and open a way up for all of us. )

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

@supportpeacenotwar There used to be an excellent article on the main page about Shahada. Some of the points brought up in the article included the following one can't be a witness to something that has not been personally experienced, none other than ALLAH should be mentioned, that we are commanded to not make distinctions between the messengers (peace upon them all), and that ALLAH suffices as a witness.

2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.

3945 And when GOD alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned besides Him, they rejoice!

1796 Say "GOD suffices as a witness between me and you. He is Expert and Seer over His servants."

4152 And those who believe in GOD and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their recompense. And GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.

Don't forget to search the forums for Shahada...there are plenty of discussions.

It can be argued that there are many "Shahada" in AQ. Consider 2131...

2131When his Lord said to him "Submit," he said "I submit to the Lord of the worlds."

Why is this so especially meaningful? Here's why!

2130 And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

supportpeacenotwar