Second Shahadah vs Actual Shahadah in the Quran

Bender

Waw conjunction links back to the Subject of Verb= Allah the Exalted. The Role of words in Arabic text is determined by the case endings. The following two words --Angels and the men of knowledge are both definite and in nominative case. Waw links them both to the preceding verb. Subject is always in nominative case. Without determining the role of words in the sentence, the perception obtained from the text will always be defective.

Another example is already provided by you.
is the Verb plural third person masculine with waw as subject pronoun. with conjunction are both the subject of Inna and the subject of following verb which is the predicate of Inna. The act signfied by the verb is done by them all.

Salaamun alayka,

RED to what subject is the red waw linked in 459 "... "

GREEN As you can see in 3359 "... ..." are directly one after the other and in 318 that is not the case.
Imo if angels did sahada then it would have been in this form verb -- Allah and angels -- statement
The question was if you can give me 1 or more verses with similar structure like 318 thus verb -- subject A -- statement -- subject B where subject B did the verb but also the statement.
I hope you understand what I am asking.

Salaam,
Bender

Mazhar

Salaamun alayka,

RED to what subject is the red waw linked in 459 "... "

GREEN As you can see in 3359 "... ..." are directly one after the other and in 318 that is not the case.
Imo if angels did sahada then it would have been in this form verb -- Allah and angels -- statement
The question was if you can give me 1 or more verses with similar structure like 318 thus verb -- subject A -- statement -- subject B where subject B did the verb but also the statement.
I hope you understand what I am asking.

Salaam,
Bender

Waw conjuncts back to for which reason as object of verb is in accusative state like and is its possessive noun.

Both are the Subjects as is evident by their nominative case ending. The object of verb is placed in between the two, as is the case in 318.

mmkhan

Salaamun alayki,
16101 And if We exchange a sign in place of another sign; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say "You are making this up!" Alas, most of them do not know.

Salaamun a3laika,

I have a problem with this translation. Where did this "if" came from? It has to be translated as "When".

btw in 631 Allah is not saying the hypocrites are lairs because of their testitify BUT simply because for the fact that they are defined as hypocrites. Actually their testify is correct as Allah Himself confirms it.

Sorry, I disagree. You actually missed the important part. Allah never confirms that their shahada is correct. nope

In fact, they are called liars because they give shahada, even after seeing rasool Allah and even in front of him. Because they cannot witness the risaalat part, if Allah is making someone rasool, how another person can witness it, even if he is in front of that rasool? Hence, no shahada is allowed about Allah and/or Rasool. Hope you understand what I am saying, inshaAllah.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

supportpeacenotwar

Salaamun alayki,

You can indeed understand it in 2 ways (or maybe even more).
Imo both understandings are correct.

btw notice that in the last part of the verse no sahada is mentioned.
619 "...Say "Ashadu (=I bear witness that) He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you have set up!" "
The red bold word is missing in arabic, it would have been an ultimate chance to convince others that we have to do the first part of shadada, but it's missing.

Red Yes please do. InshaAllah the more you study the more layers you will notice.
please keep this in mind
16101 And if We exchange a sign in place of another sign; and God is more aware of what He is revealing; they say "You are making this up!" Alas, most of them do not know.

And yes this verse has also its levels of understanding

Salaam,

Well, if another interpretation is possible - then the points others were raising about 318 would contradict it. Although, I think you disagree with that interpretation of testifying oneness of Allah, i.e. testifying your knowledge of the oneness of God. So I'm not sure discussing this point would get us any further in that regard.

If you think that this is a phrase missing and that is why it is important, then it don't understand why anyone would entirely dismiss the way 631 is phrased with a bear witness element - at the start and end of the verse and then in the middle Allah states He knows that Muhammad is the Messenger, not bear witness.

About the preservation of The Quran.
Some take Al-Thirk as synonym for AlQuran in the next verse, but that is not correct.
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down Al-Thikra, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
The next verse explains what the relationship is between Al-Quran and Al-Thikr
381 Saad, and Al-Qur'an owner of Al-Thikri.

If you want to understand better then please take a look at the next passage

4141 Those who have rejected bi-Al-Thikri when it came to them; and it is an lakitabun 3azeezun.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from One Most Wise, Praiseworthy.
4143 What is being said to you is the same that was said to the messengers before you. Your Lord has forgiveness, and He has a painful retribution.
4144 And had We made it a Quranan a3jamiyyan , they would have said If only its revelations were made a3jamiyyun and 3arabiyyun, say For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.

In order to understand the above better, it is important to study very carefully the core meaning of the words as they are used in The Quran.

The meaning of the word hadith in The Quran is not the same as what we know nowadays as hadiths.
If we take "hadith" = "books of Bukharie & Co" as defintion for the word "hadith", then we will learn very fast that we will get some contradictions in The Quran.
But that is not the case if we take Allah as our only source to explain to us the meanings of the words, this is imo part of the preservation.

I am not sure if this was what you were looking for.

Salaam,
Bender

btw in 631 Allah is not saying the hypocrites are lairs because of their testitify BUT simply because for the fact that they are defined as hypocrites. Actually their testify is correct as Allah Himself confirms it.

Yes, about that... so I'm not sure I fully understand your position. Are you saying the Quran is not preserved? Are you saying the Quran is not part of the Reminder? What do you think is the Reminder? Of course, I understand this is simply your interpretation, so don't worry about me taking anyone's word for it. It's late here and I don't have time to check, but I recall verses about reminding people with the Quran. I mean, what is the Quran if not reminding us of knowledge that we already know? I do appreciate that the Reminder can be interpreted as more than just the Quran though.

So, if you do think the Quran is preserved, then if an atheist or any non-Muslim tells you, well if you take a look at all the way the Quran was canonized, the Quran was not preserved, what would you say? What evidence would you use? I mean the Quran is an oral recitation - the implications are huge if you say it isn't preserved. If you think the 19 miracle is evidence, do you think this mathematical concept is easy to understand for all people?

I would say that if you think that terminology itself and the Message of the Quran is not preserved and conspicious in that regard - such as the use of the word Hadith - then can't any non-Muslim simply say so why didn't the Quran refer to the Hadith today? I mean it uses the word, albeit in a different way in that interpretation, and it states other things to happen in the future, so why not this? After all, they can tell us, the Hadith are what the Quran should be against according to Quran only Muslims?

I understand that the word hadith can be used in different ways, but to say that somehow the term hadith in the Quran cannot refer to the hadith we have today at all - I disagree. I didn't say that the term hadith is defined as the hadiths of bukhari et al.

I don't know what you mean by this sentence But that is not the case if we take Allah as our only source to explain to us the meanings of the words, this is imo part of the preservation.

Could you clarify? You already stated that the Quran should not be assumed to be The Reminder, so why do you think the Quran is preserved?

You know, your last sentence is what my atheist contact said to me. I already mentioned this in my opening post as well as my response.

I agree partly with mmkhan, I'm still pondering the issue about saying a shahadah at all. I think it isn't a formal statement, it is an internal testifying that based upon our knowledge and understanding. We focus on one God in this type of testifying, because that is the foundation of faith and the opposite of shirk. The oneness of God is the pivotal point of faith.

supportpeacenotwar

Try to think from another angle

What's the need to do Shahada?
Where does this idea to do Shahada came from?

Regardless of the content..

Well, this is what I'm already discussing here so I don't think I need to reiterate it, but in that case, if you don't mind, what type of evidence of the preservation of the Reminder would you give to an enquirer? How would you define Reminder?

mmkhan

I agree partly with mmkhan, I'm still pondering the issue about saying a shahadah at all. I think it isn't a formal statement, it is an internal testifying that based upon our knowledge and understanding. We focus on one God in this type of testifying, because that is the foundation of faith and the opposite of shirk. The oneness of God is the pivotal point of faith.

Salaam,

There are many direct commandments in alQuraan for us from Allah, but I don't find any such command or order in any aayat asking us to give shahada. If anyone knows about any aayat, please share with us.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Jafar

Well, this is what I'm already discussing here so I don't think I need to reiterate it, but in that case, if you don't mind, what type of evidence of the preservation of the Reminder would you give to an enquirer? How would you define Reminder?

The 'shahada' is the Islam (the religion) priest adaptation of the Judaism's Shema.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael

With strong influence from Christian's Apostle's creed.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed

From my Point of View (which is non-sectarian), it's not needed / irrelevant.
There are no 'correct shahada' thus there are no 'incorrect shahada' either.

As for the 'reminder' I tend to choose
"Treat others as you would like to be treated".

Salam / Peace

supportpeacenotwar

Salaam,

There are many direct commandments in alQuraan for us from Allah, but I don't find any such command or order in any aayat asking us to give shahada. If anyone knows about any aayat, please share with us.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salaam,

That's the thing mmkhan I am not saying it is a command as such, it is more a realisation. It could even be an option to say it this way - what matters is what you you believe.

The verse would be 318, although I am looking into this further. We appear to have discussed this another member on here and people seem to disagree with the terminology. All we can do is look into this honestly, with open minds and hearts to the knowledge and wisdom Allah provides His servants. I don't know a lot of Arabic, but I don't think I need in to order to understand the Quran. I don't see the reason to discuss that verse further as it would be more helpful for me to use my time to look into this matter further.

The 'shahada' is the Islam (the religion) priest adaptation of the Judaism's Shema.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael

With strong influence from Christian's Apostle's creed.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed

From my Point of View (which is non-sectarian), it's not needed / irrelevant.
There are no 'correct shahada' thus there are no 'incorrect shahada' either.

As for the 'reminder' I tend to choose
"Treat others as you would like to be treated".

Salam / Peace

Salaam,

My point of view is also non-sectarian. I was never even raised in any sect, just the general basics of Islam. I think the fundamental thing that is needed is that the individual believes in one God. However, I won't say anymore as I'd like just to get your perspective on this.

Sorry to ask more questions, but seeing as you are disagreeing that one point in the Quran that could be used as part of an argument for minute details being preserved in the Message - I find that I have more questions.

Do you believe the Quran is preserved then? Where would you say this Reminder is explicitly located in the Quran?
Why isn't the Reminder There is no God but Allah? If there's one thing that comes through clearly on reading the Quran is that belief in one God is the most important thing.

If the preserved Reminder is treat others well, then people who prayed to many Gods and never came across the Quran, could simply say this was the reminder I got, couldn't they? People can then start asking questions about the oral recitation, and the way that these easily get corrupted. In my opinion, that would be reason God make the Quran an oral recitation, if you believe the Quran is preserved as it only serves to highlight that God would be preserving it.

You put reminder in inverted commas, is there a word that you think is better to use? Please feel free to point it out, I'm genuinely interested in your perspective and the 'evidence' you use.

After this thread, I actually view the disagreement I had with the atheist I spoke to quite differently now. In addition, the more I see our disagreements, the more natural it seems for Quran only Muslims to be spaced out across the globe and not to form a community - I think that's interesting in and of itself.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

God knows what is in your hearts and he thus knows if you sincerely believe in Him or not. No reason to witness about something God already knows you believe in.

Apart from the above, it can be colorful for yourself to witness to others that ther is only one God.

God bless you

Mazhar

Salaam,

God knows what is in your hearts and he thus knows if you sincerely believe in Him or not. No reason to witness about something God already knows you believe in.

Apart from the above, it can be colorful for yourself to witness to others that ther is only one God.

God bless you

Salam,

Justice will not be dispensed on the basis of what Allah the Exalted knows but on the evidence of others. You have to tell and pronounce for people as to what you believe in and thereafter it will be judged how sincere are you with that belief by actions and conduct.

mmkhan

Salaam,

That's the thing mmkhan I am not saying it is a command as such, it is more a realisation. It could even be an option to say it this way - what matters is what you you believe.

The verse would be 318, although I am looking into this further. We appear to have discussed this another member on here and people seem to disagree with the terminology. All we can do is look into this honestly, with open minds and hearts to the knowledge and wisdom Allah provides His servants. I don't know a lot of Arabic, but I don't think I need in to order to understand the Quran. I don't see the reason to discuss that verse further as it would be more helpful for me to use my time to look into this matter further.

Salaam,

Of course, you are free to take your time to look into this matter and not to discuss it further. But I would like to suggest you to look at my earlier replies on this thread about 318.

Also I would like to add my reply to one of our forum members on PM

alQuraan is absolutely logical. Shahada means witness, and alQuraan cannot ask you to be a witness on something that you have never seen and you cannot see in future. Hence, there is no Shahada required. When you accept that there is One God alone by seeing His unlimited creations and finding everything that we face on daily basis in alQuraan and accept it as truth, you are already a muslim.

Parroting something specially in front of others cannot make us muslim. It is solely between an individual and his Lord, God. The person has to admit and accept One single God from his inside with sincerity and honesty. And Allah is enough witness on everything, then why we need others for?

We have to stand alone in front of Allah to give account of all our deeds, no single person can interfere, then why we need others to hear what we parrot something without actually feeling and understanding it or even with feeling and understanding it? Most importantly, I don't find any aayat asking for our shahada, to become a muslim nor otherwise.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Man_of_Faith

Salaam,

I think you missed my point. Doing righteous deeds is part of believing in God and He knows what is our hearts. If what we say is not in our hearts He knows it.

Anyway, it is a meaningless discussion.

To witness there is only one God in prayer can be a beneficial reminder for oneself, but God already knows that you feel this way by your conduct.

Saying the shahada explains little to a Christian for example, you have to elaborate it.

God bless you

Jafar

Sorry to ask more questions, but seeing as you are disagreeing that one point in the Quran that could be used as part of an argument for minute details being preserved in the Message - I find that I have more questions.
Do you believe the Quran is preserved then? Where would you say this Reminder is explicitly located in the Quran?
Why isn't the Reminder There is no God but Allah? If there's one thing that comes through clearly on reading the Quran is that belief in one God is the most important thing.

Do you believe the Tao Te Ching is preserved?
The answer to that question is my answer to your question.

So if it's not in the Quran then it's not worth at all to be preserved as 'reminder'?

Well OK, then how about
"Strike them over the necks, and smite all their fingers and toes!"
as reminder. Surely the above is taken from the Quran.

And like I said, feel free to choose any reminder that you like..
If you think "Believe in One God" is the MOST important thing.

But well, even the Devil believe in One God but that doesn't make him/her/it a good person isn't it?
Mr Bin Laden and his Al-Qaedas cohorts believe in One God but that doesn't make him a good person isn't it?
Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin believe in One God but that doesn't make him a good person isn't it?

If the preserved Reminder is treat others well, then people who prayed to many Gods and never came across the Quran, could simply say this was the reminder I got, couldn't they?

Yes they could, and so does to people who prayed to one God or those who prayed to no God at all..

And at the very least you'll feel safe because they will treat you well.
(e.g. not stealing your belonging, harass you, murder and mutilate you, invade and plunder your village, rape your wife and daughters, forcing conversion to their religion on you, blowing themselves up with a bomb strapped on their waist, sacrifice you to their 'one god' etc..)

After this thread, I actually view the disagreement I had with the atheist I spoke to quite differently now. In addition, the more I see our disagreements, the more natural it seems for Quran only Muslims to be spaced out across the globe and not to form a community - I think that's interesting in and of itself.

One thing about 'non sectarian' is you'll stop thinking in 'us and them' framework.
Tolerance will sprung out, thus there's no such thing as 'absolute truth'.

Salam / Peace

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