Was Satan avoiding shirk when he refused to prostrate towards Adam?

hawk99

Salaam everyone!
" "
"And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees (Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." 234

Why would Allah order any of his servants, including the angels, to prostrate towards anything but Allah?
Is Iblis then avoiding shirk by not prostrating towards Adam?
It says it is because he was arrogant not because he was trying to avoid shirk. 4. Would you prostrate yourself to another human being?
Peace!

Peace clashncruz,

I don't see how obeying God is shirk.

In my humble opinion I think prostrate and obeisance are interchangeable.

When s-j-d refers to God it is worship
When s-j-d refers to others it is obeisance.
This is because God would not have us worship others.

obeisance

Definition
o?bei?sance

o?bei?sanc?es Plural

NOUN

respectful gesture a gesture of respect or deference, e.g. a bow of the head(formal)
respectful behavior the attitude or behavior of somebody who pays respect or
homage to somebody or something.

peace

Azz

Sorry if this is somewhat hijacking the thread, but does anyone else find it the entire tale of Iblis kinda odd? Iblis, even if briefly, seems to argue with Allah. He lashes out and swears to misdirect the will of men and women. Why does Allah entertain Iblis' aims? Unless, being all-knowing, this was an intentional aim/mechanism in Allah's plan for our lives on this Earth - but then, if Iblis is serving such a critical role, why is Iblis going to be punished?

mohf

This understanding is because of not determining the inter relationship of words in the Ayah. Angels - plural definite noun are a large group. This word is prefixed with preposition "Li" which denotes that a proclamation was announced-made for them "You people--all the angels pay obeisance for Adam". Then it is told "fasajadu". Complying to the command, they all did pay obeisance. All the Angels complied. The exception relates to the act not to angels. Iblees, mentioned by name and not as one of them, did not comply to the command given to him. This is evident
" "
712

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

Mazhar

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

is about

"Ka" second person, masculine, singular pronoun is for the addresseeIblees. The subject of verb who commanded for paying obeisance is Allah the Exalted.

Iblees had demurred show reluctance to delay or try to avoid doing something because of personal reservations or objections.

Allah the Exalted enquired, asking, "O Ieb'lees! What is that which hampered-restrained-held you back that you might not humble-show obeisance when I directed you for this?"

See the difference, here the command is to an indiidual while in respect of Angels, it is "We pronounced for the Angels". If he was included in Angels, the use of second person pronoun in would be redundant----and the Qur'aan is void of redudency. Iblees belongs to different species than Angels.
And thereat he explains his reasons and reservations for having opted not to pay obeisance.

mirjamnur

Salam

Salaam,

Thanks, I haven't noticed that the exception is related to the act (SJD) and not to the subject (alMalaika).

However, it does not really solve the problem.

234

And when We said to the angels Make SaJDa to Adam they did SaJDa, except Iblis. He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

712

He said What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you?

We can clearly see that Allah actually did command Iblis to perform SJD, THEN he refused. However in 234 Allah has only commanded the SJD to alMalaika alone. So Iblis should be included in alMalaika, or I am making a mistake here.

i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

mmkhan

Salam
i'm sorry, but i don't understand- the word ILLA it does not make a clear exception?? all malaika ILLA ibliis. (for the action sujud AND the subject...??)
So for me i just can concluse, that Ibliis was one from the malaika as Mohf said..
Salam

Salaam,

I also agree with mohf. And yes, ILLA makes it clear easily.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Mazhar

Asalamo alaikum,

Those friends who are stuck up with understanding that Iblees is part of Angels may first read about "Exceptions" and their declension. If Iblees were a member of community of Angels, it should be in nominative case and a prepositional phrase "minhum" would have followed it. Iblees is in accusative case

hicham9

Disobeying a direct order from the Supreme Creator Himself is NOT avoiding shirk!!! D
ALLAH (SWT) IS THE ALL-KNOWING ONE, thus, HE knew that Ibliss would question HIS order, and HE knows what this"act of disobedience" will lead to in the end. ALLAH (SWT) knows best.

As for your last question; I would never prostrate myself to anyone, except ALLAH (SWT) ( &#1616. I believe t'here are about fifteen verses in the Quran that praise those who "prostrate to ALLAH."(See 2277, 6162, 351, ...) Showing humility to Allah, bowing down and prostrating to ALLAH alone, is what separates believers from unbelievers. Our LORD alone is worthy of all worship and beseeching. However, if ALLAH (SWT) commands HIS creatures/creation (me included) to do so, OF COURSE "everyone" is supposed to trust in HIS Wise Words and "absolutely" obey HIS order. In other words, ALLAH is the exception. When HE gives us a command, we say " " (We hear and obey). Now, abviously there is free will in Heaven. After all, Ibliss abused his free will to choose to become prideful and that was his downfall.

{ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * }

hawk99

Peace family,

Upon reflection I would have to agree with Mazhar, not so much because of his
linguistic explanation but because of the jinns origin, which is stated as follows

He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said,
"I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
See Also 38/76

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.

peace

kylixguru

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.
This is a very interesting post to me. It triggers some thoughts I'll share, for what it's worth.

My understanding of the angelic hierarchies is that angels are a spiritual creation, which explains the aspect of being created from fire. There is what is called the baptism of fire that Jesus brought, which was exemplified when he laid his hands upon his disciples heads and commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost. At this point they experienced the ordinance coupled with their spiritual birth. The baptism of fire and spiritual birth, or put another way, the process of spiritual resurrection, is the means by which the angelic hosts are created. This spiritual birth where the law of carnal commandments was raised to the spiritual level and carried out spiritually is the ushering in of spiritual life that previously was not generally available. Spiritual resurrection is what Jesus brought anew that was not generally among the Jews, who were still on the schoolmaster of the carnal laws and commandments.

So, the creation of the lesser angels had its beginning in the very beginning of the 5th millennium. The level of spiritual glory available at that time was symbolized by "fishes". Jesus called his disciples to be "fishers of men" and when He appeared in a resurrected body of flesh and bone to his disciples they recognized him with some awkwardness, fear and trepidation because they had difficulty to see him. What did Jesus say? He said "marvel not, for a spirit alone has not flesh, but see that I can partake of these cooked fishes". He's saying "I am more than just a spirit, I am resurrected in the flesh". But, what he was talking about is they themselves and all those who believe on them become members of the resurrected body of flesh and bone of Jesus. This is what Paul tried to say in Ephesians 530. Paul is saying "Duh, don't you get the mystery here? We ourselves are the members of the flesh and bone body of Christ."

This is what Paul's eyes were opened to see that completely blew him away. It was all something that he grasped as a totally new way of seeing things. He saw that they as a collective body were fulfilling the unfolding of the creation narrative. Paul understood that all of the aspects in the creation account pertained to people. He saw Christianity itself as the manifestation of "fishes" being created on Day 5 and that together as a collective they were the manifestation of Christ's bodily resurrection in the flesh as a tangible reality that lived and breathed among humanity.

So, back to my original thought. The angelic creation began when Jesus introduced anew the process of spiritual birth/resurrection and raised humanity up to the spiritual level. Now, it wasn't just "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not be angry". Now it wasn't just "thou shalt not commit adultery" but "thou shalt not look upon another to lust after them" because that was adultery in the heart. All those individuals who stepped up and believed in implementing the carnal commandments as a foundation and to raise it up to the spiritual level are the angelic hosts. They were created by way of the baptism of fire of the Holy Ghost.

So, this all started on Day 5 (5th Millennium) with the "fishes" and we can see a steady process of evolution from there. Next came the creation of the "fowls" who were not bound down and limited by the "waters". They were allowed to fly freely into the heavens and be unbound by the governance of men, which is what the waters represent. (See Rev 1715) And, eventually, you have the Roman Empire crumbling and breaking down and giving way for a greater level of liberty, which allows dry land to appear. Thus, in Day 6 you have the coming forth of "creatures" that are of a higher order of spiritual understanding and glory. This progresses until up to the last part of Day 6 when that spiritual evolution gets to a point of culmination with "man" (Adam) being created.

This who narrative of Creation is all understood as a pattern or as a blueprint for how the spiritual creation takes place. It appears to me that Islam is the manifestation of the "fowls of the heavens" because Islam also came forth in the 5th Millennia and the two primary levels of spiritual glory available on Day 5 of Creation is the "fishes" and the "fowls". Without any doubt the Christians are fishes, but it is less apparent to me that Islam identifies themselves with free flying living beings that roam the heavens. But, so far as I can tell, most all Islamic nations have their own independent governmental systems. Thus, they are their own source of governance, which is the heavenly realm.

So, when we come to the creation of Adam, the context is we have an abundant amount of "spiritual life" manifested as a whole cosmology of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", "beasts", etc. that are all created from the fires of spiritual rebirth to that level of spiritual glory. They are all, in many respects, angelic creations. They are the means by which angelic forces are ministering to humanity in an effort to bring "life" at some level of glory to them.

Unfortunately, it appears many if not most were a bit egocentric because when God brings the evolutionary process to its apex in bringing forth "man" in the exact same image, stature, likeness, etc. to God they recoil and do not wish to place themselves under the dominion of "man". They view themselves as having been created by fire, which is the spiritual resurrection of the Holy Ghost. And, they see Adam as simply being an ordinary man who is not composed of any spiritual life, which actually was not true. God also breathed into Adam the "breath of life" which was also the same process of spiritual rebirth/resurrection, only in Adam's case it was the complete fullness of the Father. In their pride they blinded themselves to consider the level of spiritual glory God gave to Adam to be foolishness. They only viewed his fleshly component and rejected his spiritual component.

Thus, many of the angels who had been given a level of spiritual glory, rejected Adam and vowed to fight against Him. Paul talks about this part of the narrative in Romans 11 starting about verse 18. He talks about how when the foundation of the new creation was being laid that God was among the people in the flesh and that they were all offered the full understanding of the fullness of the Father. But, they considered it foolishness. And, even though they knew Adam and were personally acquainted with Him, they did not glorify Him for who He truly was. They rejected him. And, it says, they instead held to the worship of the "creeping things" etc. This simply means that they wished to hold to their lesser level of spiritual glory that the "creeping things" symbolized. They only went so far and simply could not spiritually evolve any farther than that. They were blinded and couldn't see that in God's eyes this is what they were actually doing. They fancied themselves as the apex of God's creation and ended up rejecting the very thing their whole religion was geared to point them to.

Look at the Gospel of Jesus. It was all about the "Good News" to prepare the people to accept the Father's Kingdom that would eventually be established. To whom does God give dominion over all things? He gives that to Adam. So, all of these "fishes" were being taught to look for the future advent of the new Adam who shall bring in a new Creation and give you a place in "heaven" with Him. But, when He does finally come, they reject Him and turn away, thus denying themselves the very object of their whole religion. So, instead of being brought into a state of paradise, they collectively become the "snake in the grass" and bite Adam's heel and cause Him to fall back (transgress). But, Adam doesn't remain down. That same heel shall crush their head because Adam is redeemed and overcomes His fall and He does gain the victory over the Kingdom He is given.

So, the source of the Satanic hosts that fight against Adam having His dominion are those who are of the various levels of spiritual creation that lead up to the evolution of Adam. They are jealous and they do not want to accept that a greater level of light and knowledge (spiritual resurrection) has been given to Adam. They consider Him and his alleged knowledge and authority are foolishness.

So, at the end of the day, here's where it is at right now for everyone. All those who have a level of belief in God and who have devoted themselves are to some degree of glory a resurrected being on the spiritual level. We have a wide array of spiritual life in the form of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", etc. We have Day 6 now behind us so we should already have the manifestation of "man" having been placed in a new Garden of Eden and who was given dominion over all of the existing spiritual life. We should see Him tasked to catalog and "name" all of those "creatures". We should also see Him having a time of trouble where His dominion is rejected by most and we should see the "angels" rebel and fight against Him, despite the fact that He is there to bring them all into Paradise and fulfill the hopes and ambitions of their whole spiritual faith. It's a terrible irony.

So, Satan was a collective body of angels who combined against Adam and who refused to glorify Him as the apex of God's Creation to whom God gave dominion over all things. In short, Satan is who gets his head crushed for shooting not himself in the foot, but in shooting his King in the foot, so to speak. Thus, figuratively speaking, Satan shot himself in the foot because of his foolish pride and jealousy. Adam was actually a being of greater glory and of the fire but Satan refused to acknowledge this glory and claimed Adam was merely of mud. However, we know that Satan was a liar from the beginning. So, we shouldn't believe that his point of view to claim what he did of Adam was the correct point of view. Satan simply failed to recognize that Adam was a superior being in every way because of his own pride and arrogance.

This very narrative is playing out literally right now as the cycle repeats. A new foundation for the "world to come" is already underway, but Adam is in a fallen state and Cain (Lucifer) has usurped the throne and is currently trying to take all of the Father's glory to himself. This is why there is such evil and corruption in governmental powers that were originally ordained to establish peace and righteousness in the earth. Adam needs to be recognized for who and what He truly is and empowered to pull down Cain from his usurpation. But, this cannot happen until all of the angels awaken to the reality of who and what Adam is and give Him the oblation that God ordained Him to receive. Then, they can assist Adam in establishing the Kingdom in victory and usher in a golden age of peace. I believe Islam will be of great assistance in assisting the Father to gain the victory.

Momeen

what I believe is "Sajda" referred in all this ayats is for respect, but cursing of iblis was for his arrogance and not sajda.

wallah ho alam

as I am in shariyat of prophet Muhammed(s), and he never demanded sajda for him self, or never did any sajda to any human, so even I would not do that, no matter it is for respect or what ever definition it might hold.

Mazhar

Peace family,

Upon reflection I would have to agree with Mazhar, not so much because of his
linguistic explanation but because of the jinns origin, which is stated as follows

He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said,
"I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from mud."
See Also 38/76

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.

peace

Salamun alaika,

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/055.%20Ar%20Rehman/55.15a.gif

And He the Exalted created the Jinn from a part of jouncing, fidgety, disconcerting mingling flame from fire.

Whoever of the created realm has qualitative distinction of life has water as its essetial ingredient as informed in 2130.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/25.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%2025/5.%20Maraja%20Meem%20Ra%20Jeem/4.gifRoot

Indelwyn

I believe Islam will be of great assistance in assisting the Father to gain the victory.

I am sorry did I miss something?? God needs assistance?? He can't gain victory?? Are you serious??

It is believed that Jesus and Christianity started the Age of Pisces. Pisces astrological symbol is the fishes and the fish is associated with the Christian faith and was used secretly by them to identify themselves. Jesus was the ?fisher of men? and was known to talk symbolically about fish. Pisces traditionally rules spirituality, compassion, sacrifice, service to others and faith. All these things were strong during the Piscean Age and it was a time when one of the largest religion?s of the world was started.

In a class I took when working at the Diocese they stated Angels where beings of light.

hawk99

Salamun alaika,
Whoever of the created realm has qualitative distinction of life has water as its essetial ingredient as informed in 2130.

Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be
one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all
living things. Would they believe?

Peace Mazhar,

Are you saying that angels are made from water? Is it not accepted that the angels
existed before the the universe? And yes we are biological entities that come from water,
but are angels biological entities like us? Please make clear your assertions and if you are unable to I would understand because the subject is so mysterious.

This is a very interesting post to me. It triggers some thoughts I'll share, for what it's worth.
My understanding of the angelic hierarchies is that angels are a spiritual creation, which explains the aspect of being created from fire. There is what is called the baptism of fire that Jesus brought, ushering in of spiritual life that previously was not generally available.

Peace kylixguru,

I was taught that "bath under fire" was the cleansing of spirit thru preaching the word
of christ in the face of unacceptance or rejection but to do one's duty by preaching
nonetheless.

God knows best

peace

kylixguru

I am sorry did I miss something?? God needs assistance?? He can't gain victory?? Are you serious??
You probably did miss something along the way which causes you to trip up on the words I have spoken.

God's people who establish Zion in a redeemed state shall receive assistance from others, including the true believers of Islam. God shall move upon the hearts of many to lend their assistance to the fledgling group of the remnant who survives the scourge and judgment that is coming.

Do you disbelieve that God works through the instrumentality of people to perform His labors?

Is the Qur'an the product of Mohammed? Or, is it the product of God?

Does it take away from it that Mohammed assisted God in making the Qur'an available to the world?

It is believed that Jesus and Christianity started the Age of Pisces. Pisces astrological symbol is the fishes and the fish is associated with the Christian faith and was used secretly by them to identify themselves. Jesus was the ?fisher of men? and was known to talk symbolically about fish. Pisces traditionally rules spirituality, compassion, sacrifice, service to others and faith. All these things were strong during the Piscean Age and it was a time when one of the largest religion?s of the world was started.
And that is yet another level of confirmation of what I am talking about. Do you think it is coincidental that these things align? Why do you say this as if only it can be true and mine cannot be true? They are all true and mutually confirming.

In a class I took when working at the Diocese they stated Angels where beings of light.

And, what do they mean by "light". When a human being has light and truth illuminate their minds, are they not then a being of light? Again, this is a mutually confirming thing, not a mutually exclusive thing.

kylixguru

Peace kylixguru,

I was taught that "bath under fire" was the cleansing of spirit thru preaching the word
of christ in the face of unacceptance or rejection but to do one's duty by preaching
nonetheless.
This is the process that leads up to people receiving that "baptism of fire". If it wasn't for missionaries going forth to preach the "good news" there wouldn't be converts to begin the process of preparation to receive the Father's Kingdom when it comes. This is what Jesus was talking about when he taught Nicodemus that a person had to be born both of water and of the spirit before they could be received into the Father's Kingdom when it would come. And, poor Nicodemus didn't get it at first. He asked Jesus if a person should enter again into their mother's womb. And, Jesus didn't necessarily refute him, but it still seemed that he missed the point.

And, perhaps this helps shed light upon the other passage talking about all things being first made of "water". Jesus is more or less saying that first of all you need to obtain a physical body and then while in that physical body you need to receive the preaching of "the word" and become spiritually born so that in your heart and mind you are in agreement with the Father's Kingdom.

In a simplistic way, Jesus was teaching that the Father's Kingdom would be composed of people in the flesh who are spiritually born as well. Absent that "spiritual birth" or that "spiritual resurrection", which is the baptism by fire, a person would not be able to be received into the Father's Kingdom.

Mazhar

Peace Mazhar,

Are you saying that angels are made from water? Is it not accepted that the angels
existed before the the universe? And yes we are biological entities that come from water,
but are angels biological entities like us? Please make clear your assertions and if you are unable to I would understand because the subject is so mysterious.

Salamun alaika,

You also translateed

And from water we made all
living things.

does not grant exception to a single entity. is its adjectival description. Other than Allah the Exalted all that exists is . How can we assume that the Angels who are living species were not created with water after such categorical statement of Allah the Exalted?

I hope you have seen the link to find water in the creation of species Jinn.

Indelwyn

The way you stated it above had me believe that God needs us to gain a victory, which I do not believe. God is victorious with or without mankind.

Qur'an is from God. I do believe God uses prophets and messengers, but even without them it does not make it impossible for him. I just see God as not needing us but, us needing him.

I suppose I miss understood because I do not believe in John's revelation. I do believe in judgement day, but not in the Armageddon that Christians and some Muslims do.

My reply about the Pisces goes along with the symbolism you were pointing out. Yet I still believe a lot of that is rooted in pagan symbolism, adopted by Paul. I am not saying your right or wrong, to each his own. I was Christian for almost 33 years, I understand the passages. My brother in law is a born again Christian, he talks about this Baptism of fire every time he sees me...lol However, he does it without an open mind.

When they were teaching the class they stated pure light, without any darkness like the human. Then again I came from the teaching of original sin, so man could never be fully "light". The only difference besides that was "free will"

Does it take away from it that Mohammed assisted God in making the Qur'an available to the world?

Why do you say it this way as if it would have more meaning to me or I might be offended. Prophet Mohammed means nothing more to me than what Prophet Jesus means to me. I am not one of those who holds him above all others in creation. Just as much as I don't believe in hadith, I am not sure I trust everything that is claimed to have come out of Prophet Jesus's mouth either. Meaning stories or dreams passed down. I love them both and I don't want to have something wrongly attributed to them. Hope that makes sense.

kylixguru

The way you stated it above had me believe that God needs us to gain a victory, which I do not believe. God is victorious with or without mankind.
My understanding of God does not separate Him from mankind.
What kind of a Kingdom would the Father's Kingdom be with zero citizens in it?

Qur'an is from God. I do believe God uses prophets and messengers, but even without them it does not make it impossible for him. I just see God as not needing us but, us needing him.
Yes, of course, but when the time comes for Zion to be redeemed, don't you think the true believers of Islam would be friendly and supportive of such as an expression of their true belief in God?

Aren't true Muslims also looking forward to the coming of the Father's Kingdom as well?

I suppose I miss understood because I do not believe in John's revelation. I do believe in judgement day, but not in the Armageddon that Christians and some Muslims do.
There is a basis in the Mosaic Covenant where there are certain punitive terms that shall have to be fulfilled before the children of Israel can be cleared of all of the negative consequences for their former adultery against Jehovah. Unfortunately, Armageddon as described in scripture is a pretty clear match up to what Jehovah said would befall Israel if she turned away from the Law and walked contrary to her Lord. The good news is once all of this punitive humbling is over, there shall be a small remnant of Israel that remains, which shall be the purified, refined and proven seed stock from which a whole new cycle of Creation shall be birthed from. These are who shall establish the Father's Kingdom and it shall be a blessing to all the righteous. I am certain that there shall be many Muslims who shall provide aid and comfort to help this small remnant of Israel to rise up from their humiliation. There are also many Muslims who shall be on the other end of things who are being instruments of punishment upon the Israelites as well.

My reply about the Pisces goes along with the symbolism you were pointing out. Yet I still believe a lot of that is rooted in pagan symbolism, adopted by Paul. I am not saying your right or wrong, to each his own. I was Christian for almost 33 years, I understand the passages. My brother in law is a born again Christian, he talks about this Baptism of fire every time he sees me...lol However, he does it without an open mind.

When they were teaching the class they stated pure light, without any darkness like the human. Then again I came from the teaching of original sin, so man could never be fully "light". The only difference besides that was "free will"
When a person is "born again" they become an entirely new creation in Christ. And, I'm not talking about an emotional rush that modern Christians get because someone else picked up the tab for their sins and they can just go on sinning without a conscience about it. This is a counterfeit spiritual birth to a seducing spirit that seeks to corrupt the pure Gospel. A real genuine conversion unto Christ means that you truly have become transformed and quickened in your inner person so that you no longer have a desire to sin and so that you are made clean and ready for remarriage to God as a virgin bride, holy and pure. So, again, my position is not contradicted when you take into account what the real intent of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was originally intended for.

Why do you say it this way as if it would have more meaning to me or I might be offended. Prophet Mohammed means nothing more to me than what Prophet Jesus means to me. I am not one of those who holds him above all others in creation. Just as much as I don't believe in hadith, I am not sure I trust everything that is claimed to have come out of Prophet Jesus's mouth either. Meaning stories or dreams passed down. I love them both and I don't want to have something wrongly attributed to them. Hope that makes sense.

I was just trying to say that it doesn't diminish God an any way to acknowledge that God works through the instrumentality of people to perform the things that He does. And, I was using an example of how God worked through Mohammed to produce the Qur'an.

I think I understand you well enough that I'm comfortable leaving off, unless you have further questions. But, perhaps we should start our own discussion thread since we are starting to stray from the original post.

hawk99

Peace kylixguru,

In Islamic terms you are paraphasing "spiritual growth". Believers nurture the soul by
commemorating, remembering and by observing the practices revealed to
the messengers of God. Again, born again is "equivalent" to acknowledging that
there is One GOD, then to follow up by putting into practice the Quran, this is Islam
the one religion decreed for all (submission to God alone) be you christian, jew, muslim
so forth and so on.

You shall commemorate the name of your Lord, to come ever closer and closer to Him.

ONE GOD, ONE DEEN

peace