Liberal Muslims and Quranists
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Thinking your faith has to ultimately be the right one shows a degree of arrogance and is a sin according to God. This goes both ways, both Quranist (if you want to refer it to this awkward term) or traditional Muslim thinking.
I have to disagree with you on this one. Am I committing a sin in saying that God did not have a son? Am I committing a sin by telling my Christian friend that worshipping Jesus as savior is wrong?
There is God and there is the TRUTH. Those who see and believe in the Truth are in the right and those who don't are in the wrong. It is as simple as that. If the truth is that God had no son then all those who believe Jesus is a son of God are clearly in the wrong.
Either God told us to believe all the things that people like Abu huraira and his likes attributed to Muhammed to be true and that you need these stories to understand the Koran, incorporating as a guidance shaping your life or God did not. So either the traditional Muslims are speaking the truth about God or telling lies. Either they are in the wrong or in the right.
so how am i being arrogant and committing a sin by saying that traditional Muslims are wrong as their fundamental belief is based on lies about God just the same as Christians believing Jesus is the son of God and in the trinity?
What is a sin is to tell lies about God. We need to stop doing that. There are those who knowingly and willfully tell lies about God after coming to know the truth for their own personal gain. there are those who really dont care for the truth finding comfort in their traditons and just following without questioning. many are ignorantly and innocently believing in lies thinking they are true and that they are on the right path when they are not. There are those who know what is said are lies about God but they just remain silent and going with the flow not causing any waves. Standing up and speaking the Truth is often met with negativity. Going against establishment comes with a price. For some hearing the Truth creates psychological distress or dystonia and often reaction is one of resistance and dismissal.
It is all about divide and conquer, money, land, power, control and women - adding to it human traits of selfishness, ego, arrogance, ignorance, fear.....influencing and dictating behavior. Well, this is the nature and history of mankind.
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Peace mohf,
Thank you for being more humble, it is saddening to be facing aggressive people while trying to be peaceful myself.
I am convinced that it is wrong to be uttering Muhammad and his family's name at a time of worship such as at a mosque I go to here in Iran ans they just systematically repeat a phrase of words aimed at glorifying Muhammad and his family. And a khutba rarely have much to do with Quran, it is mostly talk about Muhammad's family or perhaps extracts from Quran aimed at supporting the glorification of them, often clearly taken out of context to support the idolatry.
In this case I agree with the reformists, but what I disagree on is the way of ridiculing people for their belief, even if it is wrong.
I was more anti-traditional Islam before, ie more extremist, but I got wise. I admit now that merely saying some words about Muhammad etc does not make it shirk. I have not been foul in my conduct before, but I was less tolerant and annoyed.
I think a healthy balance of seeing Muhammad, and other Messengers, as role models can assist a Believer for the better.
The point is, however, I still see excessive repetition of Messengers to be wrong in the eyes of God, it is a distraction from the proper worship of the Lord. The salam these Muslims do in the mosques is not a healthy worship of God, it is following false teachings and tradition.
If you want to pray to God and ask Him to give peace and well-being to whatever person is not wrong, but to systematically do this so it takes considerable time of your religious practices than it has gone overboard.
Shia Muslims have a yearly anniversary for imam Hussein when they stand for hours beating their chests repeating 'ya hussein' over and over again. Is this healthy worship of God?
I know why they do it, but I think it is wrong. Imam hussein is not alive and suffer anymore, so there is not point in repeating this thing. It is like Jesus, his crucifixion and Christians.
It is better to for hours glorify God instead in that time they do this.
The intention of these people makes it idolatry in my opinion, because it distracts people from the worship of God.
Okey, I will end it here, but this was my long answer to your question about your son. And this was not a day but one hour!
It is not about mentioning a name, it is about the intention of doing it and why it is a distraction from the actual worship practices. The glorification eats up so much thoughts and time it becomes unhealthy.
Hope you understand my point and peacefully disagree, should you wish to do so. I am not hostile towards these people here who I feel do not practice islam properly, they are still my brothers. I just cannot accept their ideas that the imams were more than just ordinary men and almost semi-divine.
God bless you
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Peace justamuslim,
You may have misinterpreted the point of my sentence.
What I meant is the actual act of being arrogant and all what it means, ie thinking your views are absolutely better than anyone else's.
I did not mean to refrain from saying what one believes to be the Truth and to try to spread the true Message. But it has to be done through the right means, by not acting in an arrogant manner and in a proper way showing your islamic nature.
The Quran tells people to be stern with disbelievers, but also be respectful and show a graceful nature with the ability to forgive in case they discover the right path.
How can you preach the Message in the way God wants if you act the way they do?
So you have to tolerate and respect some people do not wish to change their ways without mockery and ridicule.
I take the "Submitter" sect as an example. Some are often pretty arrogant about their faith in the teachings of Dr. Rashad Khalifa and they are more reformist than traditional Muslims. Not all of the reformists agree that their way is right, but we still have to refrain from being arrogant towards them.
That was an example of the clear point of my previous post, which could mean even between reformists who do not always agree with each other still have to humble themselves and not act arrogantly.
If more traditional reformist Muslims want to keep some routine rituals you have to accept that too, because it may help them concentrate more on God while doing it.
This was the aim of my previous post and not to forbid voicing concern over probable erroneous practices. It is about arrogantly falsifying the practices of others living by the famous "We are right while they are wrong"-mentality.
Hope this cleared out any misconceptions that occurred previously and I am sorry for not not making myself understood the first time.
God bless you
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@man of faith
Thanks of clarifying. I did misunderstand you and I do agree with you.
What is wrong is when people say this is from God or God said this. It is not wrong for traditional Muslims to wear hijab/niqab as it is not contradictory to the koran but to say that God commanded a woman to do so is wrong. it is not wrong to keep rituals and traditions BUT to say that God commanded to do these rituals is wrong. I really don't think it is wrong to excessively praise Muhammed but I agree that by doing so we seem to lose focus of God and his scriptures.
I live amongst Christians. All I hear is Jesus! Muslims are not much different. You go to the mosque or any gathering, all you hear is prophet Muhammed. What really gets to me is when lies are told about Muhammed depicting him as a dog hating, heartless, womanizing misogynist by Bukhari and company.
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Peace
If the second is true, Why are they NOT RIDICULED and MOCKED by the Mainstreamers as QURANISTS.
Despite the fact that they hold several views CONTRARY TO HADITHS.
Advice on this matter, highly recommended?
Peace
HarunThose who follow Koran alone are a major threat to the establishment whereas liberal Muslims are not.
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Peace justamuslim,
Hijab is not even nearly contradictory. In fact, it is encouraged by the Quran where it speaks of covering as much as possible of a woman's body except what must be shown. However, I refute the claim a woman should cover the face as it reduces the three of the primary senses from being utilized efficiently.
However, hijab or not, it is up to the interpretation of the reader what means by only showing what is required. I must admit that women with chador, a type of blanket they wrap around their bodies to cover the whole body make them look like ghosts instead of humans.
Many women feel comfortable in hijab and they should be allowed to use them. They may want it because it is a way to be modest, the hair of women can be something that makes a woman attractive, ie long shining healthy-looking hair.
Being used to women with hijab ( I live in Iran currently) the hair becomes something special for a man. Of course, one should restrain himself, but Jesus said in the Bible to even look at a woman with lusts is sinful, and that I agree with.
In old times, hijab was pretty common in the Western world too where women often covered their head. Even men were supposed to cover up their head actually, often hats. It is a way to be extra modest I guess.
Tight, sexy clothing is not really appropriate either where the body's features are clearly displayed. And it is the same for men with a lot of muscles to wear tight t-shirts so that they may show their attractiveness openly, since this is a man's way to show he is healthy and powerful to protect his woman and offspring.
Most important is to wear neutral clothes I think.
All God wrote in Quran is recommendations on how to live a righteous life. He did intentionally write the verses on woman modesty the way He did and that for the woman herself to decide how much modesty she wants. He could have written exactly what a woman should hide, but He did not.
If we go on the reverse, why do women not want to wear hijab? Any particular reason they want to show off the hair? I think it is because it is uncomfortable to wear this piece of clothing, is it not?
I could start wearing a hat if it was that it would be the hair was distracting for a woman. In old times a hat for a man was mandatory and it had to do with not showing the head in an act of modesty. You were naked without it, practically.
I do not want other women than my wife to be interested in me and thus I dress appropriately. I use no perfume when I am at school teaching female students or things like that. I have thought about hat, but it not a custom now unfortunately.
But that hijab should be in the law book is wrong. Each one of us should be allowed to decide ourselves. In this regard I am liberal and embracing liberalism, personal freedom.
God bless you
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@man of faith
Re
But that hijab should be in the law book is wrong. Each one of us should be allowed to decide ourselves. In this regard I am liberal and embracing liberalism, personal freedom.What do labels which people often use really mean? what does it mean to say that you are a "liberal", "progressive", "conservative" muslim? I have had people tell me that I am "ultra conservative" in my views and at the same time "very liberal". I consider myself as "just a muslim" and I suppose that means I am ultra conservative, liberal, progressive, etc. I am all of that.
Aren't these labels dependent on your perspective and culture? In the western society, I am considered to be conservative in my attire. In the summer time, people are in shorts, tank tops, two piece bikini....Wearing my short sleeve shirt or t-shirt and Capri on the beach - people ask me why I am not in bathing suit. In your society, a woman in short sleeve and Capri would not be considered conservative. In a place like Iran, if a women walked down the road in a two piece bikini, everyone would be looking at her. Here, no one really cares. It is also cultural and generational. I was with my friend who is in her 50's when some teens passed us wearing short-shorts and t-shirt that is three sizes small and we were talking about how times and attitudes have changed.
when I told a guy (a sunni muslim) who i was attracted to and he felt the same about me, that I don't date and expect him to keep a rulers distance from me (no hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc) - he found my views to be extreme and ultra conservative. I don't believe that I am when all that I am doing is avoiding placing myself in a vulnerable situation and distancing myself from potentially committing a sin. I don't think that i am being fundamentalist or radical or extreme in my views. For someone else, kissing and holding hands may not be an issue but this may not be the case for everyone.
So as you said, it is not wrong if you do something (ritual or whatever else) which helps you BUT the problem is when people say this is haram and that is haram and God said this or God said that. And this is how everyone should be.
For instance, you said that you don't wear cologne in some circumstance but to say that it is haram for a guy to wear cologne is wrong. Being a normal heterosexual female, I am attracted to men and certain cologne has the intended affect on me. I find it to be thoughtful and considerate that you don't wear cologne in certain settings but would it be wrong if you did though? Would it be haram if you do? Absolutely not. It should be haram though to wear offensive cologne that makes me want to gag or I can't breathe when a guy douses himself with cologne!! May be, he intends to repel me by wearing cologne! rotfl
The problem I have is when people come with rules/laws and don't think losing sight of what islam is really about. When I was in college after a meeting, I felt unsafe walking back to my car alone in the dark. The two muslim brothers didn't think it was proper to walk me. Seriously! It is haram to walk a woman to her car at night??? brickwall Whenever I found myself in a situation like that, I would ask my non-muslim classmates/friends to walk me to the car or home or give me a ride or help me move furniture, etc.
Islam is so simple, practical, easy, peaceful way of life but yet we make it so complicated, difficult and hard. Why?
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Peace,
I said it is a personal choice. Have I said it is law? It was for my own modesty.
Saying liberal I said nothing related to religion but to political views regarding the decision to apply own "rules". I meant no more label for Muslim.
It was not making it complicated to refrain from cologne and extreme clothes.
God bless you
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@man of faith,
I am not sure I really understand your most recent post. I didn't allege you said anything that I had issues with. if i didnt agree with what you or anyone said, i think that i am pretty good with making myself clear and why I have issues with what you said.
I was commenting and reflecting on the state of affairs of Muslims wondering why people make it harder when Islam (God) intends to make our lives easier. And so, honestly I am a bit baffled by your post. When you said how you are 'liberal' in regard to your views on hijab, I thought it was interesting and also what this thread is about, commenting on what these descriptions really mean may it be religious or political. Am I being liberal in saying that each person should decide for himself or herself what modesty or anything for that matter is? Or am I just being a muslim?
a Sunni muslim who doesn't wear hijab and wears make up is considered liberal muslim. A muslim like me who follows only the Koran alone who doesn't wear a hijab - well I am not even considered a muslim. i went from being a 'good pious practicing" muslim when i wore a hijab to then a 'liberal' 'non practicing' muslim to now not a muslim.
Man of Faith, You live in Iran where hijab is the law of the land that even a non-muslim news reporter has to cover her head. This is wrong. It is not just about hijab but about practically everything else - from nail polish, to perfume, to interacting with sexes to listening to music to a lot of things. The issue that I have is when people go around saying this is haram, that is haram, this is what Islam is or God says. Man of faith, I am not saying that you said. If you did, well you know where I stand
Lately in the news, there is much talk about the two suspects who set off bombs at Boston marathon. So Islam is on the front pages again. One of the suspect was married to a Christian who later converted and she started wearing a hijab. Listening to the news that hijab is Islamic and commanded by God, I thought about writing to the local news that is not true. God did not say that. People need to stop telling lies about God. If a woman thinks that covering herself from head to toe is modest, that's fine but don't say that is what God said or how God defined to be modest. This is the issue that I have.
Dating is not for me but for me to say that God said dating is haram is haram. This is my point. My other point is that people think I am being extreme and fundamental or way too liberal in my ways when all I am is just a muslim. Just my commentary, Man of Faith - having a discussion expressing my opinion, feelings and views. Nothing against you or what you said - just making that clear. )
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Peace justamuslim,
Sorry I made you upset. I must have misunderstood your post. I read it quickly while I was a bit stressed and perhaps did not read carefully enough. I should have refrained from replying at the time. Hope that you excuse me.
I hope you understand that I do not support the government's laws regarding hijab here since it is just an interpretation of the Quran. Many of the so-called Sharia laws have no Quranic basis but are mostly coming from hadith. However, I can admire the modesty here at times, for it is a different culture than I was used to.
God has commanded us, or rather recommended, to be modest and cover as much as necessary. If you read Quran you will see that there are actually some hints at what God means is modest. I agree that traditionally it has been over-interpreted and people make up rules based on this orthodox interpretation.
Also, if one studies the Quran, they can see that God wants that we should not force our belief on others, which cause the laws like the one about hijab to turn into an unholy rule.
Question is how naked a society should allow its inhabitants to be. Sometimes I think there is too much skin in "Western" countries, and did even before I "became" Muslim.
An utterly liberal society the people should be allowed to choose themselves, but some people may be offended by this. But if it became a bit shameful to "show too much", then this would be less of a problem. If a certain behavior is not socially accepted then people will change, but if it is promoted, then of course it will not change. It is difficult actually.
But I am against using the law book to make people change behavior. It is up to the community to set the moral standards. If it is morally wrong to wear mini-skirts then few will do it, if they will hear people mumble things behind them. If a behavior is not approved of then people will refrain from it and do what gives approval instead. It is the community which causes people to act the way they do.
In these measures hijab is on the other extreme compared to mini-skirts.
The hijab does not make you a Muslim. It is your personality and behavior which defines whether you are a one or not. Think of the exact meaning of the definition "Muslim". The hijab may be a tool for you to be modest, like covering your legs with clothing, but it is not ordered by God.
Well, you really need some sort of "dating" before you get married or how are you going to be sure you marry the right person? It is silly to think you are not allowed to meet your future spouse so you get a picture of him or her.
There is really not much which is haraam in Quran except shirk and a few other things. God even warns about forbidding what He has not outright forbidden.
Alcohol is not haraam, it is just not recommended.
Gold is not forbidden for men. That is from hadith.
My Muslim life is quite peaceful and I am not surrounded by rules by a tyrannical "god" (Satan) like those who live under hadith. I feel I am walking along the beach with the Lord and He is with me. I listen to Him and I seek His nearness and guidance as well as protection from the evil one and his followers. I submit to His will.
God bless you
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@man of faith
Not upset with you at all.
About the dating part....Of course, meeting in person to see if there is mutual physical attraction is a must. You can spend time together but holding hands, kissing,hugging - not before marriage for me. why make it hard to control desires? God has made it clear that fornication is a sin and not to go near it. If being with a guy in the same room is going to make it hard on me to control myself then I should not be in the same room with him. But to say that for two people to be in the same room is haram is just nonsense. This is the kind of stuff that I have issues with - dictating people's lives. I suppose the same is true for every community and not exclusive to muslim community.
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peace
Like, Tariq Ramadan and Reza Aslan, I have seen both of them saying that Hijab is NOT compulsory. Infact, Reza emphasises the fact that it is NOWHERE commanded in the Quran.
I'm a bit surprised that you are mentioning Tariq Ramadan and "liberal" in one sentence. Imho Tariq Ramadan is anything but a liberal thinker.I would also be curious to see a source for his statement that hijab is not an obligation because from what I've read he seems to propagate the opposite. But I might be wrong.
As to what I am puzzled is, Do they forget to consult Hadith and Sunnah,
or Do they NOT regard them as a VALUABLE Source.
Have you read Reza Aslan's book? He is very critical of hadith, traditions and classical scholarship.... when the Qur'an warned believers not to "pass on your wealth and property to the feeble-minded (sufaha)," the early Qur'anic commentators -- all of them male -- declared, despite the Qur'ans warnings on the subject, that "the sufaha are women and children ... and both of them must be excluded from inheritance" (emphasis added).
When a wealthy and notable merchant from Basra named Abu Bakra (not to be confused with Abu Bakr) claimed, twenty-five years after Muhammad's death, that he once heard the Prophet say "Those who entrust their affairs to a woman will never know prosperity," his authority as a Companion was unquestioned.
When Ibn Maja reported in his collection of hadith that the Prophet, in answer to a question about the rights a wife has over her husband, replied rather incredibly that her only right was to be given food "when you (yourself) have taken your food," and clothed "when you have clothed yourself," his opinion, though thoroughly against the demands of the Qur'an, went uncontested.
When Abu Said al-Khudri swore he had heard the Prophet tell a group of women "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you," his memory was unchallenged, despite the fact that Muhammad's biographers present him as repeatedly askin for and following the advice of his wives, even in military matters.
?Reza Aslan ("No God But God"
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Peace Leyna
I think that u have misunderstood my stance a bit. As to what I wanted to say is, although they are critical of Tradition, but have u ever heard a clear cut voice saying that traditions....for that matter many of them ...... are unnecessary and harmful...despite the fact that they propagate to people that... "it is nowhere in the Quran....."...etc etc....
I think they dont do this because of being feared into the label of Quranism etc.......although Reza has quite good to say about Edip's book, a Reformist translation.
Peace
Harun -
Salam,
I think it s very condratibale and also a lack of justice in those lands because the moslim people that live in Europe fight for hijab and burka and don t want to be discriminated while it s oke to wear it in the western society.
When you're in the middel east a non moslim is not allowed to express themselves and have to wear hijab and in the europe they talk about freedom of religion. People should practice what they preach esspecially here in the europe they should talk about their own country being injustice to non believers because nobody is superieur when it comes to freedom -
I was commenting and reflecting on the state of affairs of Muslims wondering why people make it harder when Islam (God) intends to make our lives easier.
Justamuslim Peace.
I agree with most of your perspective. As for why people make it harder, well i think they view it as easier that way, stay in line with the established religion to get a free passport to heaven. No need to think and do much, follow the leader and steadfast to rituals. I was a sunni. handshake -
The unique of Islam in my place is
According to my national constitution, the residences must have a religion and cannot contaminate religion's name.My country is not secular, so that's why Ministry of Religion existed in goverment.
But in reality, most Muslim in here did somethings outside deen teaching.In here most Muslimah not wear hijab, they can sex with partner, drank alcohol as they wish in the bars etc.
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Peace,
There are also liberal Sunnis and Shi'ites. We can see liberal Sunnis in Turkey and Azerbaijan for example.
Regards,
Yuliana. -
Peace,
There are also liberal Sunnis and Shi'ites. We can see liberal Sunnis in Turkey and Azerbaijan for example.
Regards,
Yuliana.Not the Sunni-Shites which made them liberal, but the national constitution (secular).
The example of Islam liberal is this http//islamlib.com/?site=2.Allah via His Quran, already gave us more liberty such like
- Freedom of religion (2256 and Al Kafeerun)
- We already liberated from some Taurat's law such like stoning, circumcision etc.
Peace
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Peace,
The reason I wrote it was because my point is not all liberal muslims are Qur'an-only muslims. There are also Sunnis and Shi'ites who are liberal? They don't support Sharia and hudood laws etc.
Regards,
Yuliana