Translating 2:196
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I m pondering,, how can they take all the rules of grammar from quran did God sent quran to teach grammar
definately not,
God dnt bother about things what are related to acadamies because he knows the hard academic terms and their concepts is not for slow learners to grasp it and thats why when he command something eveyone can understand even the book claim itself as a clearing book not a grammer book
but you did not see where i m coming from
basically the first well known book of classical arabic was Quran i said wellknown ( because i dnt know if there were any other classical arabic book was there as per history ) so logically when scholars read the sentence structure and the rules what used by the reciever of text to explain it to general public they do their math and then they generate the structure of that language text and then they see how the language is working in this text.so if everybody is filtering their method through quran then its mean a source book cant b wrong about grammer as you already picked your rules from that book and when u rectify the errors you rectify them through quran isnt it?
by the way my questions are for mazhar bhai and answers will give all other people knowldege becoz i feel mazhar bhai got excellent knowledge of grammer so let him share with us.
blessing in the name of God
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God dnt bother about things what are related to acadamies because he knows the hard academic terms and their concepts is not for slow learners to grasp it and thats why when he command something eveyone can understand even the book claim itself as a clearing book not a grammer book
No brother. Allah the Exalted is the Author. And no author including His Majesty has exception to deviate from the rules of the language he has opted to communicate with his audience.
The author including Allah the Exalted has to write the book keeping in mind the cognitive capability of his audience, otherwise the effort is a waste activity.
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Yes, he gives the perception towards which a Root leads. That perception is always included in all the words stemming from that Root.
A friend of mine also uses Maqayis Al-Lugha for his study the words from Allah/God in Al-Qur'an/The Reading because he said that the classical arabic lexicon studies the root definition.
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A friend of mine also uses Maqayis Al-Lugha for his study the words from Allah/God in Al-Qur'an/The Reading because he said that the classical arabic lexicon studies the root definition.
Yes I have found it so far the best. Except one human error I found in one Root (that also disclosed to me he, Allah bless him, was not a drinker) his work on cross checking with Qur'aan is most accurate.
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Yes I have found it so far the best. Except one human error I found in one Root (that also disclosed to me he, Allah bless him, was not a drinker) his work on cross checking with Qur'aan is most accurate.
What was the error? And what do you mean "he was not a drinker"?
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Let us not divert from 2196. Will reply you through message.
You are correct. I'll wait for your message.
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No brother. Allah the Exalted is the Author. And no author including His Majesty has exception to deviate from the rules of the language he has opted to communicate with his audience.
The author including Allah the Exalted has to write the book keeping in mind the cognitive capability of his audience, otherwise the effort is a waste activity.
brothet mazhar agree with you. obviously universal God knows everything already whatever he created.
but what i was asking is regarding the history i was wondering if somebody study some sources about it they can share with us.
do somebody have any idea before the revelation of quran what was the status of classical arabic in the region and how advance was that language or any other book or poetry work by anybody else in classical arabic were present.
its appears to me when sometimes author of quran points towards arabic language like we send it down in arabic. so its must be something special about classical arabic what other languages dnt have ? -
Indeed Allah the Exalted has since proved to His Messenger the vision/dream as truthful with physical execution?
That you will certainly enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah willed, safe and secure?
You people shaving your heads and shortening their hair without feeling any fear;
Since Allah the Exalted knew that which you people had not yet known,
Thereat in addition to that He granted a quickened victory.Do women's too shave their heads? brickwall
As said this does not make senseAnd you people should not remove hair-shave heads for such time that the sacrificial mammal might reach the destined point; consumed-distributed
@Mazhar why you did not use idiom like shabibir Ahmad did
Relief of burden = Idiom for relief
Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
4827 God has vindicated His Messenger?s vision of solidarity. You shall enter the Masjid-al-Haraam (the Sacred Masjid), God willing, perfectly secure, having unburdened your heads of all fear. And He knows what you do not know, and He has granted you a swift victory.Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
2196 (Peace cannot defend itself. Mankind has to guard it.) Therefore, join the Hajj and ?Umrah Convention for God. If you are stranded, send in gifts that the congregation would utilize. Do not consider that by doing so you have relieved yourself of duty. Be with them at heart until the gifts have reached their destination. If someone is sick or has other compelling burdens preventing him from sending any contribution, then observe ?Saum? for a few days at convenience, or an act of charity or fulfilling someone?s need shall be in order. If a person is present at the Convention but cannot afford to contribute, he should observe ?Saum? (Abstinence) for a total number of ten days, three days there and seven days after coming home. This is for him whose people do not live in the vicinity of the Convention. Be mindful of God, remembering the noble objective. And know that God (His law) is Strict in grasping. (?Saum? 2183) -
NewFrenzy
For every work and task there is a set procedure to follow to accomplish it.
We have undertaken the task of retrieving the intended communication in 2196. Instead of striking our head against pole, would it not be better we do it coolly.
Please see my post of yesterday on 2196 -Reply 51, and react to it so that we move to next word.
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brothet mazhar agree with you. obviously universal God knows everything already whatever he created.
but what i was asking is regarding the history i was wondering if somebody study some sources about it they can share with us.
do somebody have any idea before the revelation of quran what was the status of classical arabic in the region and how advance was that language or any other book or poetry work by anybody else in classical arabic were present.
its appears to me when sometimes author of quran points towards arabic language like we send it down in arabic. so its must be something special about classical arabic what other languages dnt have ?Qur'aan is the first formal non-fiction book rendered in the Arabic language, the language of the sons of soil of Arabian peninsula. The word itself is a relative noun - evident from the last additional Ya.
For Arabic there is no such thing Classical and non-classical. It is a Living Language with the same vocabulary of Roots. No Root can be invented.
It is a separate subject, we can study it in a new thread.
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peace,
Mazhar, let's say I agree so far, please bring your most sound translation of 2196 you can. Please note, I am not going to respond commenting on word by word. Just bring the whole 2196.
NF,
I'm not sure why you provided two translations but in any case with regards to your "rational academic" one I expect you to have done some basic grammar checks and Quran cross-reference regarding your word choices, i.e. you have translated a verb as a verb, or when you think word X means Y here you've checked elsewhere in Quran it occurs and it fits fine etc. If you claim you have done this then we can proceed. (I'm assuming its your translation) -
peace,
Mazhar, let's say I agree so far, please bring your most sound translation of 2196 you can. Please note, I am not going to respond commenting on word by word. Just bring the whole 2196.
NF,
I'm not sure why you provided two translations but in any case with regards to your "rational academic" one I expect you to have done some basic grammar checks and Quran cross-reference regarding your word choices, i.e. you have translated a verb as a verb, or when you think word X means Y here you've checked elsewhere in Quran it occurs and it fits fine etc. If you claim you have done this then we can proceed. (I'm assuming its your translation)Yes this is what I have done in the first post, Morphology, syntax, and semantics of a word to its granular level, what is termed as essential components of a word.
I am giving detailed analysis purely in academic manner which enables a man to perceive the communication.
Contd from Reply 51
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.124/364.%20Faatammahuna%20Ta%20Meem%20Meem/3.gif This Form IV Imperative verb stems from Root . It signifies the proof/indication of completeness, perfection, finish. It expresses the thing was completed when it became finalized.
It thus relates to such things/tasks that have a beginning and continued process/time to cause it completed successfully.
Choice of this verb has indicated in advance the basic attribute of its object. And that it has already been undertaken.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.076/291.%20Yohajukum%20He%20Jeem%20Jeem/6.gif Verbal Noun Definite; accusative. It is the direct object of the verb signifying some state or action which has already been undertaken and is to be completed following the injunction.
At the moment we do not translate it as if we do not know as to what it is. The verbal sentence thus means
You people are directed to complete the Hajj
But let us keep in mind that definite verbal noun was very well known to the first audience, because they had already undertaken it and also because otherwise command becomes meaningless for the addressees.
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peace,
Mazhar, let's say I agree so far, please bring your most sound translation of 2196 you can. Please note, I am not going to respond commenting on word by word. Just bring the whole 2196.
NF,
I'm not sure why you provided two translationsWell you have Read mazhar sound translation it's the first translation.
Here is the whole translation.(2196) And you are directed to conclude the Hajj and Uemraa Sacred Visitation for which ever you had come in reverence for Allah the Exalted.
Thereat, subject to you having been blockaded-denied permission to perform it you are only required to deliver whatever sacrifice is readily available as accompanying garlanded mammals designated for slaughter.
And you people should not remove hair-shave heads for such time that the sacrificial mammal might reach the destined point; consumed-distributed.
However, if someone among you is sick, or with itching-irritation persisting in his head he is faced with, necessitating removal of hair or avoidance of shaving, thereby to avoid the stated course an absolver is due upon him of choice; fasting, or to gift something to needy, or do any good act.
Subject to you are afforded security-permission for entry, thereat, if some one wished to avail the benefit of Uem'raa visit towards Hajj he shall sacrifice what is conveniently available to him.
However, he who does not find to comply with this injunction he shall fast for three days during Hajj and for seven days on return to native place.
This will make fast for ten days completely. This injunction is for him who is non-resident of Sacred Mosque.
And you people sincerely endeavour to attain the protection from Allah the Exalted;Mazhar is giving detailed analysis purely in academic manner which enables you to perceive the communication so it will be better to corporate with him.
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Contd from Reply 51 and 64
Learned Wakas translated in Reply 33, as I quoted in Reply 51, this sentence
2196 And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God.
Thus = the conference/symposium
Conference means meeting for discussion; meeting of representatives of organization usually an annual gathering to discuss and decide policy matters.
It is thus evident that it relates to SPECIFIC persons, not the whole body of people.Symposium
- formal meeting for discussion of subject a formal meeting held for the discussion of a subject, during which individual speakers may make presentations
- publishing published collection of opinions a published collection of opinions or writings on a subject, often in a periodical
- ancient hist drinking party in ancient Greece a drinking party in ancient Greece, usually with music and philosophical conversation
Thereby this Locution (Actual words of the message) //And complete the conference/symposium//convey the Illocution (What speaker means to convey, his intent) " I order you people to complete the specific discussion and end the formal meeting".
Definite Verbal Noun Root
Ibn Faris statedThat it has convergent meanings/uses, firstly the intent, something planned and the purpose that accompanies the plan, thereby it was specified for the pilgrimage to the House of Allah the Exalted in sanctified city of Mecca to perform the protocols and ceremonies; and secondly, it refers contending which entails to win an argument; and lastly it is used to indicate count of years by reference to Pilgrimage which is only once in a year.
Lane Lexicon He repaired, or betook himself, to, or towards, syn. , a person , in an absolute sense or to, or towards, an object of reverence, veneration, respect, or honour 3. He contended with him in, or by, an argument, a plea, an allegation, a proof, an evidence, or a testimony.
Can Perlocution (Hearer's reaction to message) could be "conference/symposium" in the light of famous Lexicons?
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peace Mazhar,
Since you seem to fixate on the word "al hajj", you may like to know you are referring to a 2011 post. You can read my 2013 hajj article here, in which I state
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
In The Quran, "al hajj" seems to refer to something well known to the audience a certain undertaking/event. It does not really matter what one calls it in English as the things taking place due to it will be the same. Meanings such as "the symposium/feast/homage/commemoration/enterprise" seem to work ok.
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Peace Brother Mazhar
I am posting this to share my understanding and not to win over your understanding. Of course there are people who sincerely believe that Jesus is god or others who worship idols sincerely believe they are doing good.
Arabic is a root base language and all the words convey meaning of the root. In dictionaries we can find root meanings as well as adopted meaning. Adopted meanings have nothing to do with the basic root meanings.
The root is used 33 times in the Quran, as per Quran Corpus and 20 times it is understood as argument or debate. 12 times it is translated as "pilgramage" and once as "year".
How translators accepted these adopted meanings ignoring the basic root meanings is open for debate.Brother Wakas has raised serious questions about the adopted meanings of the root and a scholarly discussion should be to learn and not to win over each other or ridiculing each other. Ego and pride should be kept out of academic discussions. Calling some one "LEARNED" is like ridiculing someone and gives a bad taste to a discussion.
Just my two cents otherwise everyone is free to choose whatever suits them.
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Brother Wakas has raised serious questions about the adopted meanings of the root and a scholarly discussion should be to learn and not to win over each other or ridiculing each other. Ego and pride should be kept out of academic discussions. Calling some one "LEARNED" is like ridiculing someone and gives a bad taste to a discussion.
Translators can't "adopt" meanings; meanings, semantics of words of one language into another language is done by lexicographers in lexicons where they mention what the natives of the language use that word, meanings, and sense, or metonym.
I am not only giving analysis of words but also trying to give information about how languages work and how communication is established.
You seem not fully aware of use of learned. It is never negative - offensive connotation word. Wakas does no go by instinctual behaviour, it is on the basis of acquired knowledge.
What I am stating is not a debate for winning. Just academic information.
In the last post I gave the analysis
Thereby this Locution (Actual words of the message) //And complete the conference/symposium//convey the Illocution (What speaker means to convey, his intent) " I order you people to complete the specific discussion and end the formal meeting".
And requested the members
Can Perlocution (Hearer's reaction to message) could be "conference/symposium" in the light of famous Lexicons?
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peace Mazhar,
Since you seem to fixate on the word "al hajj", you may like to know you are referring to a 2011 post. You can read my 2013 hajj article here, in which I state
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
Salamun alaika,
Yes, I have thoroughly studied that and will discuss it side by side the analysis.
4 - root Ha-Jim-Jim. Note the perfect/past tense implies one could have done "HaJJ" but not necessarily encountered "safa" and "marwah" yet, meaning they are not compulsory aspects of "HaJJ" (or "umrah" but are accessible secondary to it. Also if they were an intrinsic part of "al HaJJ" then there would be no need to state "there is no blame on him that he should go about/amongst them". This is further reinforced by the imperfect tense "ttawwaf" which follows. As a side note, some Traditional commentators also mention this point.
This verb in 2158 is the conditional clause by conditional noun and is in Jussive state. A conditional clause has apodosis clause beginning with Particle Fa.
The apodosis clause is a nominal sentence
is the Predicate of this sentence in which verb in subjunctive mood is interpreted as verbal noun because of .
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The root is used 33 times in the Quran, as per Quran Corpus and 20 times it is understood as argument or debate. 12 times it is translated as "pilgramage" and once as "year".
How translators accepted these adopted meanings ignoring the basic root meanings is open for debate.That corpus (I had, declining offer of charges, voluntarily annotated, and had given him input before finalizing Phd thesis-http//corpus.quran.com/contact.jsp) does not show perception of the Root. Neither shows the additional meanings that get added to the word by its morphology, syntax and collocates.
Semantics of Grand Qur?n - Dictionary of Roots and Lexicon of Qur?n
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/intro.htm
