I think I've cracked it...... kind of
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peace all,
In past discussions on this forum, potentially one of the most perplexing and perhaps unanswerable questions has been discussed if God exists, why did God create anything in the first place?
As far as I know, The Quran does not directly tackle this question. In the past I said
Of course, this does not answer why create anything in the first place? This question is the most complex and unanswerable I have ever pondered upon. It was discussed on the forum previously, between myself and brother Tay, and both our thinking was it might be something to do with us being part of the whole, but other than that, I have no idea, only an inkling.
Why does a free-choice-thinking-being such as man create sculptures/art that have no other purpose than to express something within?Well, I think I can articulate it a little better now let's say God does exist but there is nothing else, in the absolute sense, then attributes such as God being "Almighty" are effectively meaningless in such a scenario as there is nothing to show this attribute is true. Ponder on that for a moment.
We would have to take the claimant, i.e. God's "word" for it that this is true. It may well be true, but is there a way to determine this? Yes. Cue creation.
Thus, creation can be viewed as simply the logical/natural expression of this original truth, i.e. God's existence. They go hand in hand.That is likely why Quran is full of passages where it correlates natural phenomena, God's signs, and truth as one. As the underlying principle of oneness/wholeness/harmony permeates throughout.
It should be noted that the Arabic word "ayat" commonly translated as "verse" (sign/evidence) is the same word used to describe natural phenomena in Quran. They are one and the same category according to the author of Quran, but simply expressed differently, akin to various brushstrokes upon a canvas.
This is kind of what I alluded to with the last sentence of my quote above. I hope this helps others.
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Peace,
is you're asking why God created us, the this might be the answer
A look into the Quran, and we see that there were 2 Original plans, one is to worship/serve God Almighty (5156), and the other one is to basically "to test us which one of us would do the best works" (672, 187, 117)
The Original purpose of our creation?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603282.0 -
Peace, Wakas.
Let's say God does exist but there is nothing else, in the absolute sense, then attributes such as God being "Almighty" are effectively meaningless in such a scenario as there is nothing to show this attribute is true. Ponder on that for a moment.
We would have to take the claimant, i.e. God's "word" for it that this is true. It may well be true, but is there a way to determine this? Yes. Cue creation.
Thus, creation can be viewed as simply the logical/natural expression of this original truth, i.e. God's existence. They go hand in hand.From my perspective, this only applies if the position needs to be validated. Sure, without "creation" (assuming there was one), then there'd be no way to verifiably identify God as being 'almighty'. However, this also implies that he's, in effect, trying to prove himself to someone - as if he's trying to show someone else that he's almighty. If, based on your argument, God is the only thing in actual existence, then why would need to validate his supremacy? Was he trying to prove something to someone?
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace all,
In past discussions on this forum, potentially one of the most perplexing and perhaps unanswerable questions has been discussed if God exists, why did God create anything in the first place?
As far as I know, The Quran does not directly tackle this question. In the past I said
Well, I think I can articulate it a little better now let's say God does exist but there is nothing else, in the absolute sense, then attributes such as God being "Almighty" are effectively meaningless in such a scenario as there is nothing to show this attribute is true. Ponder on that for a moment.
We would have to take the claimant, i.e. God's "word" for it that this is true. It may well be true, but is there a way to determine this? Yes. Cue creation.
Thus, creation can be viewed as simply the logical/natural expression of this original truth, i.e. God's existence. They go hand in hand.That is likely why Quran is full of passages where it correlates natural phenomena, God's signs, and truth as one. As the underlying principle of oneness/wholeness/harmony permeates throughout.
It should be noted that the Arabic word "ayat" commonly translated as "verse" (sign/evidence) is the same word used to describe natural phenomena in Quran. They are one and the same category according to the author of Quran, but simply expressed differently, akin to various brushstrokes upon a canvas.
This is kind of what I alluded to with the last sentence of my quote above. I hope this helps others.
Peace Wakas,
I think I know what you're saying and this can be a difficult concept to put down in words. I would say it is possible that God's attributes are bound up in the act of creation itself. However, one could say that God always had these attributes they were never expressed to creation until God created, then He became the Creator. But because He is not bound by time and space, He would have known He was going to create and thus He was always the Creator? So as God is not affected by time, but we on the other hand are, we view things as past, present and future, but Allah, the god that actually is the God, does not view things this way.
I like the way you said that creation is the logical/natural expression of this original truth. I think that's a nice way to put it. You're right, our world is full of the signs of Allah, the manifestation of an original truth, both signs that we "see" and that which we don't "see" but know.
Just a point that I thought of in relation to this is that science, history etc, is constantly searching for evidence of things or a past unseen, that's what its all about really. When those seeking God are doing the exact same thing with regards to the unseen and evidence. I've seen rejection of nature as signs of God, as though it is a primitive or basic idea. But the evidence of God would manifest on every level and be accessible to all regardless or level of education. If God or the Creator exists, which I believe He does, then all of reality belongs to Him. How could that reality not reflect God's or the Creator's attributes?
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peace all,
"As the underlying principle of oneness/wholeness/harmony permeates throughout."
Through the earth's people too? Where could the whole predestination or free will thing fit into all this?Can you clarify how you are linking "predestination or free will thing" into what I said, thanks.
Was he trying to prove something to someone?
Not to "someone", but perhaps to "something" and that would be "truth".What I am suggesting is that the logical corollary of God existing and being Almighty is creation. That is how this truth can exist.
But can truth exist in a vacuum? I guess it will ultimately come down to what you regard as the nature of truth. For example can something be "true" if there is no way, in the absolute sense, to determine it to be true.
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Peace, Wakas,
Can something be "true" if there is no way, in the absolute sense, to determine it to be true.
That's a very good question, and it seems to delve more into the position of faith and belief, depending on the interpretation... Very interesting indeed...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Shalom Aleikhem Wakas,
I am a bit confused. Are you saying that "God" created what He created so that he could validate his claims to Might/Power/Authority to himself ? The reason I am interpreting what you said this way is because of the assumption that once upon a time there was only God. That means, there was nobody else for God to talk to. Given that, why would a self-sufficient being bother at all?
Think about it this way Back in time, there was a God, all alone, self-sufficient. One day it occurred to Him that he is Almighty. However, being the smart individual that God is, He quickly realized that the lack of "things" implies that there is "nothing" for his might to work on. Therefore, the term "Almighty" does not mean a thing. So He quickly comes up with a solution. He decides to create things that are weaker than him and then He is happy again. By the way, He did not just create "things", the Universe is way too big and super massive. Forget the Universe, the animal kingdom(including us) is full of suffering. We are beings with feelings, we get hurt, we feel hungry, we know the meaning of pain. Trillions of life forms suffered and died before us, and at least Billions are suffering today. All of that just so that a "self-sufficient" God could finally call Himself "Almighty" ? Every rape, every murder, every person dying of hunger...all of that... just so that He could finally claim to be almighty....
I don't know, probably I misunderstood what you had to say there. May be you should post once more and try and explain that so that I may understand your explanation better.
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
pece SofA,
Please see my previous reply.
Not to "someone", but perhaps to "something" and that would be "truth".What I am suggesting is that the logical corollary of God existing and being Almighty is creation. That is how this truth can exist.
But can truth exist in a vacuum? I guess it will ultimately come down to what you regard as the nature of truth. For example can something be "true" if there is no way, in the absolute sense, to determine it to be true.
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Peace.
From a human perspective, it is okay to ask such question because we can think. So we can ask. Just think we are also small creators. We create cars, robots and computers. Why?
A simple answer would be, to fulfill a purpose. So that the things we created can serve our purpose, whatever they are.
I am sure Allah created all things to fulfill His purpose, of His Great existence, with all His attributes. We are here to serve His purpose.
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peace all,
In past discussions on this forum, potentially one of the most perplexing and perhaps unanswerable questions has been discussed if God exists, why did God create anything in the first place?
As far as I know, The Quran does not directly tackle this question. In the past I said
Well, I think I can articulate it a little better now let's say God does exist but there is nothing else, in the absolute sense, then attributes such as God being "Almighty" are effectively meaningless in such a scenario as there is nothing to show this attribute is true. Ponder on that for a moment.
We would have to take the claimant, i.e. God's "word" for it that this is true. It may well be true, but is there a way to determine this? Yes. Cue creation.
Thus, creation can be viewed as simply the logical/natural expression of this original truth, i.e. God's existence. They go hand in hand.
That is likely why Quran is full of passages where it correlates natural phenomena, God's signs, and truth as one. As the underlying principle of oneness/wholeness/harmony permeates throughout.
It should be noted that the Arabic word "ayat" commonly translated as "verse" (sign/evidence) is the same word used to describe natural phenomena in Quran. They are one and the same category according to the author of Quran, but simply expressed differently, akin to various brushstrokes upon a canvas.
This is kind of what I alluded to with the last sentence of my quote above. I hope this helps others.Peace Family,
Sorry to spoil the party, but the question as to why God creates does not have
an answer, only speculation as to why.We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them
just for amusement.pr
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Peace Family,
Sorry to spoil the party, but the question as to why God creates does not have
an answer, only speculation as to why.We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them
just for amusement.pr
I don't see how Wakas is arguing that the universe was created out of mere amusement, he seems to be saying the exact opposite even.
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I don't see how Wakas is arguing that the universe was created out of mere amusement, he seems to be saying the exact opposite even.
Peace A-K,
The ayat is not directed at wakas or anyone else for that matter, only to point out
that the exact reasons for creation other than what is stated in Quran is unknown,
Verse 21/16 is one of the verses that point out what we know from Quran,
I hope this clears things up.peace
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Peace Family,
Sorry to spoil the party, but the question as to why God creates does not have
an answer, only speculation as to why.We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them
just for amusement.pr
Peace hawk99 and everyone else,
I would say this verse is important in understanding that the reasons why God created anything. There could be many reasons that we don't know, at least not in this life. If this knowledge was essential or important for faith, Islam and doing good, we'd be given it. There are also many other things we don't want to know in this life, living as human beings. Allah will guide us to knowledge we need in the way that we need it.
I would also say that God does not create in the way we do as such. So we create for a need etc, but Allah clarifies that He is free of needs and wants.
Having said that, I don't think Wakas was saying that we can ever really know, but rather its just something to perhaps ponder.
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First, I don't know what this topic talking about.
But the Sign of God is Quran itself.Quran has verses contain sciences, good structural Arabic sentences which make Quran easy to remember,while Muhammad (pbuh) is Badawian Bushman was impossible wrote that verses with his hand.
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Peace.
If one ponders deeply, IMHO the whole thesis of the Quran and the creation of the heavens and the earth is about the Truth versus Falsehood. Al-Haq ayats belongs to Allah, the Truth, followed by believers on His path by following His guidance, the Quran. Bathil fancy words belongs to setan and his followers among mankind, rebels with falsehood. That's why man is created to be a communicative being, to be able to receive God's words right from Adam. And of course His guidance, the Quran.
Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day ayats for men who understand. (3190)
Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth Our Lord! Thou hast not created this falsehood (bathilan). Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire (3191)
That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing (22)
And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know . (242)
The question we should ask, what are seeking in this world of information surrounding and embedded in all things around us and within us?
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Peace.
If one ponders deeply, IMHO the whole thesis of the Quran and the creation of the heavens and the earth is about the Truth versus Falsehood. Al-Haq ayats belongs to Allah, the Truth, followed by believers on His path by following His guidance, the Quran. Bathil fancy words belongs to setan and his followers among mankind, rebels with falsehood. That's why man is created to be a communicative being, to be able to receive God's words right from Adam. And of course His guidance, the Quran.
Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day ayats for men who understand. (3190)
Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth Our Lord! Thou hast not created this falsehood (bathilan). Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire (3191)
That is the Book, wherein is no doubt, a guidance to the godfearing (22)
And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know . (242)
The question we should ask, what are seeking in this world of information surrounding and embedded in all things around us and within us?
Peace zone,
Great points, I'm not sure if you meant this, but I also view it as those who will abstain from just inventing anything up about God without sound reasoning or a conviction to do so and continue with such things. So for example those who said that the sun or moon itself was God, or that they represented God - which Abraham considers and uses reasoning about and essentially comes to the conclusion that things are limited (675-79) All one needs to do, is to pray to that which is their Creator, they don't even need a specific name and ask their Creator to help them know the truth as they want to avoid the falsehood. Very simple really and anyone with any level of education etc can do it.
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Peace zone,
Great points, I'm not sure if you meant this, but I also view it as those who will abstain from just inventing anything up about God without sound reasoning or a conviction to do so and continue with such things. So for example those who said that the sun or moon itself was God, or that they represented God - which Abraham considers and uses reasoning about and essentially comes to the conclusion that things are limited (675-79) All one needs to do, is to pray to that which is their Creator, they don't even need a specific name and ask their Creator to help them know the truth as they want to avoid the falsehood. Very simple really and anyone with any level of education etc can do it.
Peace supportpeacenotwar.
Yes indeed, you said it for me, thanks sister.
The creations of the heavens and the earth will lead one to ponder where is the Creator, an example as Abrahim (pbuh), by using reasoning, who wonder which the Greatest Being, moon, sun?
At one point of time, I think it was the Natural Law Being. Till I discovered the Creator of the Laws of the universe from His book of guidance, the Quran.
Say, "Who is Lord of the heavens and earth?" Say, " Allah." Say, "Have you then taken besides Him allies not possessing for themselves any benefit or any harm?" Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Or is darkness equivalent to light? Or have they attributed to Allah partners who created like His creation so that the creation seemed similar to them?" Say, " Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Prevailing." (1316)
Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. (6101)
And We have not created the heavens and earth and that between them except in truth. And indeed, the Hour is coming; so forgive with gracious forgiveness.(1585)
praise is to Allah , who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. Then those who disbelieve equate with their Lord. (61)
And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is best in deed. But if you say, "Indeed, you are resurrected after death," those who disbelieve will surely say, "This is not but obvious magic." (117)
And to Allah belong the unseen of the heavens and the earth and to Him will be returned the matter, all of it, so worship Him and rely upon Him. And your Lord is not unaware of that which you do. (11123)And to Allah prostrates whoever is within the heavens and the earth, willingly or by compulsion, and their shadows in the mornings and the afternoons. (1315)
Their messengers said, "Can there be doubt about Allah , Creator of the heavens and earth? He invites you that He may forgive you of your sins, and He delays your death for a specified term." They said, "You are not but men like us who wish to avert us from what our fathers were worshipping. So bring us a clear authority." (1410)
Have you not seen that Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth? If He wills, He can do away with you and produce a new creation.(1419)
Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah." (679)
My Lord, You have given me of sovereignty and taught me of the interpretation of dreams. Creator of the heavens and earth, You are my protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Cause me to die a Muslim and join me with the righteous." (12101)
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Peace Family,
My belief is that God has his business, and I have mine. My business is to live a
righteous life and get to Jannah. The how,when,why is God's busines and he informs
us of what he wants us to know about creation, having said that, there is nothing
wrong with reflecting and speculating as long as one understands the limits, and
that speculation is only speculation.The believers are members of one family; you shall keep the peace within
your family and reverence GOD, that you may attain mercypeace
