More salat and ra'kat discussion
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...I could not imagine that greeting God with salaam would be as bad as "blasphemous". God says "Peace!" is our greeting, so why not allowed to greet Himself with it?...
The highlight above is from me.
Dear Man of Faith,
I am NOT questioning your faith or your intentions at all. I'm just expressing my opinion when deemed necessary, as the following also intended to mean just the same.
Regarding the SALAAM issue; we use it to whish each other PEACE and tranquility when we meet, and the reason is that we as weak and vulnerable earthly creatures are always prone to calamities and disturbances of this short worldly life. On the other hand GOD, the Almighty, is the Supreme, the Eternal, and Supernatural, away from all disturbances and calamities. He is the absolute and infinite PEACE/SALAAM. We are the ones in need of His peace at all times, and we better always beg of him to bestow on us from His Peace if He wills.
...Regarding the prayer "Our Lord in Heaven" with 7 verses; this prayer does not imply that God is limited to Heaven. However, even Quran tells God resides somewhere else....
Please let us know where in The Qur'aan GOD, swt, says He resides "somewhere else", as you claimed above.
Allaah, swt, is INFINITE in size. He does not fit in anything or anywhere. He is the container for ALL things. The Old testament, in Isaiah 661 we read Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool where is the house that ye build unto me, and where is the place of my rest? The Qur?aan in 2255 puts it in a better and more correct context ? His Kursi/FOOTSTOOL extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. This verse informs us that, the whole creation which consists of the HEAVENS and the Earth is hardly as big as His footstool which is very tiny compared to His THRONE/?ARSH/KINGDOM. In other words, we cannot limit the existence of GOD, the Almighty, to any particular or certain place or time. He is the Omnipresent, meaning, He is present everywhere, be subatomic or intergalactic, at all times.
If you have a better translation than this on 3344 I may change my mind about salam to God
About 3344;
Their saying of ?Hi?/TAHIYAH/GREETINGS is going to be ?SALAAM?/PEACE the day they?ll meet Him and He has prepared for them a noble reward.
The word ?TAHIYAH? in Arabic language in a literal sense means ?to live on?/continue living, but in the Hereafter we are not going to be mortal, so instead of saying ?Hi/TAHIYA? we will greet each other by saying ?PEACE?.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace Bender, Kgwithnob
I agree that salam to God was not so thought through, I should have not rushed into a change in words. I only did it during two days after I had revised my own individual prayer. I am choosing something else now to say which does not seem weird, like the first thing they say in 3344 about glorifying God.
However, I will keep thinking about the salam to God issue because it felt interesting. I have read about blessings to the Lord, but I will read up on it more in depth before I make any more utterances.
But I will keep reciting the Jesus prayer because I think it was a true prayer and not an invention. Lord of Heaven might be better though, I think the original translation might be flawed. It is like a supplication (dua) for me. If you have read these 7 verses you will realize there is nothing wrong with it.
Earthdom The actual prayer sequence is over after about 10 minutes. After that I have free speech and meditation which sums up to 30 to 60 minutes, but I may have been exaggerating the duration. It seldom is more than 20 to 40 minutes although it occasionally reaches an hour.
God bless the three of you
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Peace Bender, Kgwithnob
But I will keep reciting the Jesus prayer because I think it was a true prayer and not an invention. Lord of Heaven might be better though, I think the original translation might be flawed. It is like a supplication (dua) for me. If you have read these 7 verses you will realize there is nothing wrong with it.
God bless the three of you
Salaamun alayka,
I went to a Christian elementary school when I was young. We did the prayer every morning and afternoon. From what I remember, it looks like a translation of the first chapter of The Quran which evolved by time (I mean the translation).
Salaam and may Allah bless you 2,
Bender -
Peace Bender,
I do not agree. The contents of this prayer is different from chapter 1 of Quran, but it sounds more like a supplication than the backbone of a prayer. I like that it has seven verses though since I admire this number
It talks mainly about forgiving others that the Lord may forgive us and other islamic main points which is not strange since Jesus was a muslim.
I find it suiting my muslim life and that is why I use the verses and it is not because I still live a Christian life. Also, I never believed in Jesus divinity or the trinity. You have to excuse me, brother, I use the Bible for inspiration sometimes.
God bless you
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peace all,
In my view, with regard to number of salat or even rakat, there is no issue if
- one is to the best of their knowledge/effort/research doing what they think is right
- they are sincere in this
- they continue to seek knowledge etc
Personally, I don't see how anyone can reasonably conclude from reading Quran that a salat has "rakat" units and there is a salat called "wusta" but that's just me.
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I should point out that fulfilling the three criteria above is perhaps not as easy as one might think, for example in my view being "sincere" I think it is common for Muslims to have/do a certain act/belief/practice as part of their religion but if one were to ask them how much time/effort have you spent determining that to be a true/evidenced/accurate act/belief/practice very few would actually say they have spent significant time on it or given this their best effort.
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Peace,
There appears to be five salats
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605189.msg324894#msg324894
I consider that post to be poor. It simply repeats the same errors as repeated many times before. By far the best discussions on salat can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0To be honest I am surprised anyone reads that post you linked to and considers it good UNLESS they believe in code 19, as they seem to readily take numerology as "good" evidence.
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Peace Wakas,
Trust me. I am trying to find ways of validating or invalidating my current practice as often as I can. Much of my time goes to try to think if I actually do the right thing. I am not extremely conservative, but since I still have no overwhelming proof that invalidates the rakah system I continue with it. I know, there is no proof validating the practice either, but I find it not to be blasphemous to my Lord.
My modification with stretched up hands is relatively new and I found some texts in the Bible talking about it and I know Zoroastrians pray like that.
Between all these unreliable sources, I actually think salat is not a uniform prayer but an individual one. The personal connection to God is more important than doing some robot-like movements several times daily.
With the above in mind I try to liven up my prayers even if I still condone to the traditional movement. The ending with free talk and meditation is a way to make a more flexible relationship to God (if you read about my prayer).
God bless you
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I consider that post to be poor. It simply repeats the same errors as repeated many times before. By far the best discussions on salat can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0To be honest I am surprised anyone reads that post you linked to and considers it good UNLESS they believe in code 19, as they seem to readily take numerology as "good" evidence.
Peace Wakas,
The 19 reference is incidental and irrevelant, the point is, are there three or five salat,
and navidfa makes a valid point that there are five. Having said that, now look at the
ayats and make your dispute directed at the ayats and not 19.peace
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Peace Wakas,
The 19 reference is incidental and irrevelant, the point is, are there three or five salat,
and navidfa makes a valid point that there are five. Having said that, now look at the
ayats and make your dispute directed at the ayats and not 19.peace
The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace @Wakas.
I already reading your posts and your website (studyquran.com)
You may translate sujud as not physiccal prostating.Then I want to know is how do you perform salat?
Salaam
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peace all,
MofF - I can appreciate what you're saying, but if you deem it individual only, then verses such as 4102 may be problematic for you. Perhaps not.
Hawk99, again I recommend the compilation of salat links thread. The post you referred to has basic errors in it which anyone who has read the compilation thread would discover. If after having read them you still have queries etc feel free to post them here.
Earthdom, please see here for my view on salat http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
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Earthdom, please see here for my view on salat http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
Peace be with you, Wakas.
I have read that article before that you have linked. But it does not answer the question which Earthdom has asked you. I think you don't take salat to mean as 'prayer'. But if I'm not getting you right, can you please kindly tell us in brief that how do you do your salat?
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Peace Wakas,
I have always had that verse in mind, but it does not mean that prayers have to be uniform when you pray alone. But of course, that verse stirs around the philosophies a bit. It gives me the feeling that some sort of physical movement atypical to islam is prescribed by God, perhaps the ancient prostration?
The verse you referred to at least convinces me that salat is a sort of prayer ritual.
God bless you
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peace all,
MofF - I personally don't see how prostration can work in 4102 as I have outlined here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
And I don't see how one can conclude from 4102 that it means a sort of prayer ritual. Certainly a "ritual" as in something done regular/routinely but not a "prayer" per se.Scribbler, can you help me out and tell me which bit you do not understand from my article, as I think it is quite clear. Quote
To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
Verses linking slw to al quran 243-45, 4103, 512-13, 7169-170, 82-3, 1958-59, 2945, 312-7, 3333-34, 1778.
the salat should be done during/close to the morning & evening twilight times (i.e. 2x per day)
When one undertakes this regular/timed salat, one should follow the specific guidelines given, e.g be clean , clear mind , moderate tone (although this may only apply when in groups due to the context of this verse) etc.
This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful), see 4103. Mumin is different to muslim. This is a very important point to consider. Who are the mumin? To find out, see the articles below
Submitters (Muslims) vs. Believers (Mumins)
The Trust - www.free-minds.org/trustThis makes sense because it is only the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful) who are upholding the scripture. For them, to uphold/maintain the going/turning towards (i.e. link/bond) will be more specific and thus directly related to what the scripture contains, hence reading of it regularly. In other words knowing what the bond entails goes hand in hand with its application.
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The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
KhalilSalaamun alayka,
RED 2238 does not say per day
BLUE As per my current understanding "WUSTA" does not mean middle. You can look at 2143, 589 and 6828 for a better defintion.
salaam,
Bender -
The highlight above is from me.
Verse 2238 determines the number of SALAATs/prayers, per day. The verse commands us to safeguard over our SALAWAAT/prayers and the SALAATULWUSTA. The Arabic word SALAWAAT is plural and must be at least 3. The word SALAATULWUSTA means the MIDDLE prayer. From this we conclude that the total number of daily SALAATs must be at least 5. The proof is that, SALAWAAT cannot be 3, because 3 is an odd number and has no middle. It should be 4 in order for the SALAATULWUSTA to sit right in the middle of it. 4=2+2. So, the total number of daily SALAATs/prayers=2+SALAATULWUSTA+2=5.
Verse 2238,
Safeguard over your prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allaah with devotion.
Peace,
KhalilAgreed
O0
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Salaamun alayka,
RED 2238 does not say per day
BLUE As per my current understanding "WUSTA" does not mean middle. You can look at 2143, 589 and 6828 for a better defintion.
salaam,
BenderPeace Bender,
How would you translate 2/238?
The believers are members of one family; you shall keep the peace within
your family and reverence GOD, that you may attain mercy.pr
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Peace Bender,
How would you translate 2/238?
The believers are members of one family; you shall keep the peace within
your family and reverence GOD, that you may attain mercy.pr
Salaamun alayka hawk99,
instead of "middle" I think a word like "foremost" would be more precise.
Salaam,
Bender
