Questions about Al Quran
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Peace brothers and sister
In a Quran alone discussion in a traditional islamic forum, one member claims that Al Quran has not been preserved. It seems that he suggests that Al Quran can't be used as evidence or proof for something since it has been altered/changed, and that Al Quran therefore has no more validity than Hadith. But as far as I know, the Quran has been preserved because it has been memorized. On the other hand, Hadith has not been memorized just like the Quran and therefore its preservation is questionable.
According to history, we know that most hadiths have been fabricated and falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammed. We also know that most Hadith collections don't contain the Prophets original words and deeds. "The Scholar Daniel Brown adresses this important fact in his book "Rethinking Tradition in Modern Islamic Thought."
A member in the traditional islamic forum seems to suggest that it can't be proved that Al Quran has been memorized or preserved. As we know, Al Quran tells us that it has been preserved (see verse 159). But if we say that Al Quran has been preserved just because it says that it has been preserved, then we are resorting to circular reasoning. Therefore I want to know if there are any evidences that suggests that Al Quran has been preserved. I haven't studied the history of Al Quran in detail. Hence my knowledge its accuracy (from a historical perspective) is limited.
I have two questions that are related to the things I wrote above. I hope that the brothers and sisters who are knowledgeable when it comes to the historical accuracy of Al Quran, can answer these questions. My questions are the following
Can we prove (through historical sources) that Al Quran has been preserved?
Can we prove (through historical sources) that Al Quran has been memorized? -
Peace Mario.
I even didn't reading that Daniel Brook's book, I want read it, but looks like that book not released in my country plus it's in english -[.
Maybe you create this thread because a traditionalist ask you this.(just my prediction)From my point of view, as Quran alone that doesn't mean we fully trash hadith or another narrations because hadith contains some important history about Prophets, Sahabat or Arabs culture at times, despite hadith already distorted by times cause it's very risk for used as source of fiqh.Historical books musn't 100% valid right?
Being Quran alone means we must use Quran alone as laws and fiqh for implementing our faith in Islam.
Yeah I can just say read the hadiths, narrations or another Yellow Qitab if you want the stories of the Quran, but not too believe in the stories since it's not 100% in term of validate.
If we fully trash hadith then how we know Islamic history, and we became blind for our beloved Prophet.It's bad idea if a non Muslims ask us who is our phrophet and how is Quran's history, but we answer them with "I don't know". -
Peace Earthom, all
Thanks for your post. But I still have unanswered questions.
Are there no brothers and/or sisters that can answer my questions about Al Quran (in the first post in this thread). I would truly appreciate your help.
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Peace,
It is quite easy to see that the Quran is preserved. You find no nonsense in it. All strange things I have found were only misunderstandings.
Read even one page of hadith without finding nonsense if you can!
If you want to insult them with their own hadith you can ask them how many stones you should use to wipe your rear end.
How can one be a muslim without believing in the Quran's authenticity? Rinse and repeat I say.
If it was not for the perfection of Quran I would rather be a unitarian Christian to be honest as I used to be. The Muhammad of the hadith is a bit crazy in my opinion. And people sneak up on him to many times during his life to see how he performs the calls of nature...
God bless you
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The Qur?aan, by definition, is a READING, not writing. What I mean is, unlike the book of Moses which was given to him in writing (7145), The Qur?aan was given to Mohammad, pbuh, through the Holy Spirit, reading it to him, and he in turn followed his divine orders and read it to the people ( 7516-19), and It was memorized by people close to the Prophet (2949). In fact, this is the way The Qur?aan is preserved, i.e. by being MEMORIZED through countless people all over the world and throughout its history (159). Afterwards, and for the mere sake of portability, they stared to put The Qur?aan in writing.
The diacritical marks/signs gradually began to appear into the written texts of The Qur?aan starting with the oldest manuscripts in the first century and slowly evolved into what we have on hand today.
Unlike some written versions of The Qur?aan, there is only ONE version of the recited Qur?aan. Actually, all the written ones try their best to be the exact copy of the recited ONE.
The preservation of The Qur?aan through memorization, i.e. reciting it by memory is a historical fact. There have been millions of individuals, who generation after generation have memorized The Qur?aan in its entirety throughout its more than fourteen-century history. We can find them in most countries all over the world. This phenomenon, i.e. MEMORIZING of The Qur?aan, since its birth, is an undeniable, CONTINUOUS, and HISTORICAL fact through the past fourteen centuries.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace kgwithnob, all
I agree with your views. But I need historical sources to be able to back up my arguments if I discuss with sunni and/or shia muslims. Because if I don't use historical sources to back up my arguments, when it comes to the accuracy of Al Quran, then they would say that I am just resorting to circular reasoning. In your post, you said that the memorization of Al Quran is a historical fact. I don't disagree with you. However, I need specific historical sources.
Which historical sources prove that Al Quran has been preserved?
Which historical sources prove that Al Quran has been memorized? -
peace,
You can compare the oldest extant scripts through the ages, e.g. http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
After some research you will note there are minor letter, and some word, differences, however none as far as I'm aware alter the meaning in any telling way. There are also several variant recitations of Quran, which differ in minor letters/words here and there, but again I am not aware of any significant changes to meaning.
Having said that, I am not aware of anyone who has conducted studied in order to eliminate these minor differences using the internal structure of Quran, logic etc. After this process has been done it is possible very few, if any, variances would remain.
In terms of memorization, I believe this would be attested to in historical sources, but I don't have any names of works etc.
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@Mario
What historical data are you looking for? Would you mind elaborating.
I don't agree with you that the Koran was preserved by memorization.
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Salam Mario,
To verify the "textual" integrity/authenticity of the Qur'an, you'll need to study the available documentary evidence (Early Qur'anic manuscripts from the 1st century of hijra onward) and simply compare it to (the content of) the "Mus'haf" of medina ( ة we have in use today.
http//www.submission.info/quran/appendices/app01_tashkent.gif
You can download the (incomplete) Tashkent Quran here
http//ia600401.us.archive.org/6/items/Al-mushaf-Al-Imam/al-mushaf-al-Imam_text.pdfHere's an interesting article I found online
http//www.islamicwritings.org/quran/history/early-and-old-manuscripts-of-the-quran-and-the-printed-quran/Hope this helps.
SLM -
http//www.submission.info/quran/appendices/app01_tashkent.gif
What manuscript of this,hicham 9?
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Peace Family,
Why would muslims need outside sources to confirm what they say they believe
in? Do not they believe in God? Do not they believe in his revelations? I suggest
they take God at his word or do they prefer the word of man instead. The Quran
has been preserved because God says so.Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
To GOD belongs everything in the heavens, and the earth. GOD is in full control of all things. (4126)
God Bless
peace
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Shalom Aleikhem Mario,
Can we prove (through historical sources) that Al Quran has been preserved?
No.
Can we prove (through historical sources) that Al Quran has been memorized?
No.
Actually, it depends on your definition of "preserve". What you mean when you say "preserved". I assumed that when you are talking about the preservation, what you mean is that, say for example, the document should contain only what the prophet left as its contents. The trouble with "memorization" is worse than the trouble with hadith. How do you go about verifying memorization? We do not have audio recordings from the past to check and verify current recitations. As far as I know, a certain textual version of the Qur'an is pumped out by the Saudi government and spread throughout the Muslim word in millions of copies every year. In the same manner, those in charge and in power can standardize reading of the text due to their political leverage instead of validity of the reading itself. In such a situation, how would you ever verify if what we have in our memories now is the actual content?
If anyone reading this post can think of a way, feel free to reply to this post and share your knowledge.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allah -
So how we know the the history of Quran and our Islam according to you,Student of Allah?
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What manuscript of this, hicham 9?
Its the Samarkand Codex ( د, aka the Qurn Of Uthmn (Kufic script, 2nd century of Hijrah), now kept in Tashkent (د, Uzbekistan.
You can download a copy below
http//ia600401.us.archive.org/6/items/Al-mushaf-Al-Imam/al-mushaf-al-Imam_text.pdf
OR
1
http//www.mediafire.com/?mjdwzlok3qx
2
http//www.mediafire.com/?tjmhvimzymm
3
http//www.mediafire.com/?mmwmgzuzjwy
4
http//www.mediafire.com/?qjzyinmyaz1
5
http//www.mediafire.com/?zmnmmthzwtzMy position?
ALLAH (SWT) has preserved HIS Glorious "Thikr." There is no doubt about it.SLM.
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From Student of Allah on Today at 082042 AM
The trouble with "memorization" is worse than the trouble with hadith. How do you go about verifying memorization?Verification is very easy and simple, just go to the internet and you?ll find many Qur?aan recitations with different reciters that you can verify for yourself. I?m sure they all recite The Qur?aan exactly the same.
We do not have audio recordings from the past to check and verify current recitations.
You don?t need any audio recording equipment when a generation teaches The Qur?aan and its memorization to the next continuously. This method has been practiced since the beginning and is an ongoing method all over the Muslim world right now.
As far as I know, a certain textual version of the Qur'an is pumped out by the Saudi government and spread throughout the Muslim word in millions of copies every year.
The government of Saudi Arabia has been in existence only since 1932, less than a century ago. How can you claim that a book like The Qur?aan which religiously and ritualistically has been read and practiced none-stop for over fourteen centuries and by billions of its followers all over the world, has been distributed by a very short-lived government like Saudi Arabia?
In the same manner, those in charge and in power can standardize reading of the text due to their political leverage instead of validity of the reading itself. In such a situation, how would you ever verify if what we have in our memories now is the actual content?
If for the last fourteen centuries the enemies of Islam and The Qur?aan could in any way corrupt it, which they couldn?t, then from now on and with all the numerous and different and super-fast technological verification tools available, I?m sure their chances of corrupting it are ZERO. Don?t let any doubt overcome you; the word of God, the Almighty, is the truth, see 159.
Moreover, reading and memorization of The Qur?aan, just like all other religious rituals has been preserved through daily, none-stop, and continuous practice by billions of Muslims all over the world since the beginning of it for over fourteen centuries . Right now and on every corner of this planet Earth, we can run into the people who have memorized The Qur?aan in its entirety. This practice has been going on since the first day the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, started receiving The Qur?aan. See 2949 for the proof.
Historical documentations for these kinds of global phenomena with none-stop and continuous existence are logically rare, because their practice have not been interrupted through their history.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace hicham9
Thank you for the link bro hicham9, but I originally cannot read untajwid arabic.
Salam
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Peace hicham9
Thank you for the link bro hicham9, but I originally cannot read arabic withouth harakat.
Salam
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Shalom Aleikhem Khalil,
Verification is very easy and simple, just go to the internet and you?ll find many Qur?aan recitations with different reciters that you can verify for yourself. I?m sure they all recite The Qur?aan exactly the same.
Ah, you completely missed the point. The individual who opened the thread wanted to know if there is a way to historically verify the texts and memorization. Of course you can go to two different places on earth and find two individuals who are reciting the same thing. This only serves to prove that in today's world, on recitation is popular. It does not prove that this is the original recitation. That is common sense. This is the same with hadith. Just because Bukhari met a number of people who claimed to have heard the same story about the prophet doesn't automatically mean that the story is true. You still need a way to verify. For that you need to contrast that with a document from the past.
You don?t need any audio recording equipment when a generation teaches The Qur?aan and its memorization to the next continuously. This method has been practiced since the beginning and is an ongoing method all over the Muslim world right now.
Well, it depends. If you take it on "faith", of course you can simply "believe" it. But the individual who opened this thread wanted proof. Historical proofs. I can provide historical proofs that people memorized exerpts from the Qur'an and some people memorized the Qur'an in its entirety. However, I can not provide proof of the "contents". It is entirely plausible that there was an evolution of the contents. I am not saying that that happened. I am just pointing out that if I claim that that happened or if I claim that never happened, either way, I would have to "demonstrate" my claim. I can think of no way that I can possibly demonstrate. Therefore, honesty demands that I do not claim to know that which I can not demonstrate.
The government of Saudi Arabia has been in existence only since 1932, less than a century ago. How can you claim that a book like The Qur?aan which religiously and ritualistically has been read and practiced none-stop for over fourteen centuries and by billions of its followers all over the world, has been distributed by a very short-lived government like Saudi Arabia?
lol, you misunderstood what I was saying there. I was not accusing Saudi Arabia of doing that for the past 1400 years. I was simply pointing out that those in power have the means to promote a specific reading/version. Thats it. I used Saudi Arabia's current printing and distribution of copies of the Qur'an as an example of how that can happen. Of course it is absurd to claim that they are solely responsible for all of that for the past 1400 years or so. And I wasn't claiming that.
If for the last fourteen centuries the enemies of Islam and The Qur?aan could in any way corrupt it, which they couldn?t, then from now on and with all the numerous and different and super-fast technological verification tools available, I?m sure their chances of corrupting it are ZERO. Don?t let any doubt overcome you; the word of God, the Almighty, is the truth, see 159.
It is true that in this age and time, it is near impossible to corrupt documents. We have digital archives and can trace back the documents to their pre-edited versions. However, this doesnt help the individual that opened this thread. Because, what this goes on to show that the Qur'an has not been changed since the digital records, not 1400 years. I hope you understand the difference and why it is the way it is.
Moreover, reading and memorization of The Qur?aan, just like all other religious rituals has been preserved through daily, none-stop, and continuous practice by billions of Muslims all over the world since the beginning of it for over fourteen centuries . Right now and on every corner of this planet Earth, we can run into the people who have memorized The Qur?aan in its entirety. This practice has been going on since the first day the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, started receiving The Qur?aan. See 2949 for the proof.
You seem to be not understanding that the person who opened the thread was asking if one could ever provide him or her historical evidence. When I think about evidence, I think about authentic things which are more or less indisputable. Just saying that a lot of Muslims were devout and passed on the same message is not something that you can validate. Think about the oldest written records. You can take the document you have now and contrast it against the oldest manuscripts. What the opener of this thread wants, in my opinion, is such a thing. Imagine finding a Qur'an that we date and find out that it is from the lifetime of the prophet himself. Imagine that manuscript matching with the one you use currently. That would show that you can validate the textual contents of your document. However, the problem is that I am not sure if that is possible. I have not come across such a manuscript.
When I am talking about historical verification, I am assuming that the person is looking for things objectively. If I can find a verse of the Qur'an from the prophet's time that matches 100% with your copy of that verse, we can both agree that you managed to validate the content of that verse. However, what I can not do then is to go on and say that the "entire" document has been validated just because one verse matched in terms of contents. Do you see what I am talking about?
By the way, have you read the article titled which Quran on this site? Click here to read. I would love to hear what Layth has to say on the issue of verification.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Peace,
It is rumored that the original manuscript was burned and destroyed. Of course it is hadith which states this though, but it may as well be true.
I think that God would leave some way of proving that His scripture is authentic through historical means however. But it is difficult to know what. We can only pray that God shows the Truth. Although it was maybe meant that it happened as it happened to mislead the ignorant.
God bless you
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Peace,
In terms of historical sources, there won't be much to verify I don't think. The oldest recording of the Quran is from the 1880s I believe. Interesting that this is when we started developing such technology.
Maybe one thing is to look at the nature of the structure of the Surahs, the nature of the structure of verses e.g. We and Me referring to God (or other things if you believe that) can change in one verse, the fact that the Quran is recited and memorized by people who don't understand what they are reading or if they understand some of it, they don't know the actual Arabic - meaning is important for memory, this is one thing you will know if you've ever had to revise or memorize anything (else). You can use mnemonics, a memory strategy but some type of meaning, rhyme, rhythm, device is always used.
Maybe we can consider all of this in relation to how human memory works and what we would expect if we asked many to memorize a text like the Quran in a foreign language.
We can also identify preservation in terms of the message itself. Some people might not like that we can't verify historically, I don't know if we will be able to, but if we could maybe it would less of a case of belief.
Oh, and I mentioned this to an atheist I once spoke to, and a few other people and they didn't really respond to my points. They seemed to say that it was all somehow more naturally easy to remember and why do we need meaning for memory? And some other stuff that translations make it easier? But there's divergence in translations anyway and that still doesn't help you know the Arabic and get the memorization right down to the detail, plus only more recently are they readily available. I really have been met with odd responses to this.
Just some musings.
