Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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So yes, it is medically proven that circumcision is necessary and highly recommended by non-Muslim American Academy of Pediatrics for reducing likelihood of such diseases as HIV, urinary tract infection, etc.
I suggest that you read the position statements on circumcision by the American academy of pediatrics and American academy of family practice.
No, circumcision is NOT highly recommended by medical doctors.
I suggest that you read about who gets STD. What are the likelihood of uncircumcised men who have only one lifetime sexual partner of getting HIV, cervical cancer and such? A virgin man marries a virgin woman is not getting HIV. So if you really want to reduce the likelihood of HIV, then follow God's guidance and not fornicate having multiple sexual partners.
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Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?
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Wa alaykum as salaam
We the Muslims, or at least those Muslims who follow the Sunnah.
Salaamun alayka,
That's a big relief, because as far as I know, you (= Muslims who follow the Sunnah) are not the ones who judges who is of Al-Mutatahhireen and who not.
Salaam,
Bender -
Salam Israfeel,
Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.
In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.
A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.
Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).
There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.
BTW 2223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?
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Salam Israfeel,
Circumcision is not discussed in the Quran as far as I am aware.
In regards to Ahadith, yes it is mentioned however it is a Sunnah and different schools of thoughts have different rulings on the matter.
A circumcised man is generally preferred over a non circumcised man however, it is not a fard i.e Hanafi and Malaki school of thought do not believe it is a fard.
Parents make their own decisions about their children's health and body well being (including circumcision).
There is information for and against circumcision and one shouldn't just blindly adhere to decisions because of social practises.
BTW 2223 doesn't mention anything about God loving the purified. I guess you meant 2222. However you're correlating different topics. Moreover, the hadiths I have read on circumcision talk about fitra not tahara that's two different things, though my knowledge on the matter is limited and maybe you know otherwise?
Thanks for your response. I do not believe in Hanafi or Maliki schools of thought. As a follower of Hadith, I believe circumcision is fard, as this is very clear from the Ahadith of our Prophet peace be upon him as recorded in the Bukhari Sharif.
Also I do mean 2223 since I believe that Bismillah is an Ayah of the Quran, and therefore the correct ayah number is 2223
Fitrah means what is natural, and what Allah created as our natural disposition. Therefore isn't taharah (purity) part of man's nature? Doesn't a baby naturally cry when he has a dirty diaper? This is from the Fitra to be clean and pure, and this is why circumcision is part of the fitrah.
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No problem.
Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?
Following an unconventional number format based on including bismillah can mislead or confuse people. So thanks for clarifying however you do understand it can confuse people?? so maybe in future you could mention including bismillah in the count.
Define natural disposition? if a child is born with 6 toes on 1 foot is that a natural disposition?
Being born with foreskin doesn't make you unnatural.
A baby does not naturally cry when s/he has a dirty diaper. Children have different temperaments some children cry because of a dirty diaper others do not. According to your logic all babies should cry until they are circumcised (sounds silly right)
Fitrah can refer to what is natural, can refer to instincts and inbuilt dispositions.
Tahara is a conditioned act, For example tahara isn't simply about being "CLEAN" take for example 9103 in which giving wealth is tahara.
There are many forms of purity but I believe your focus is on cleanliness. Cleanliness isn't part of mans nature but part of social practices, it is a learnt habit.
Tahara and Fitra are different.
If you believe circumcision is part of being clean based on your research, that's fine that's your choice but I doubt you'd convince everyone and you can't really make it an obligation or prohibition as Allah swt is the law maker.
I hope that makes sense
Salam.
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Here are a few questions I have for Hadith rejectors who say that since circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran, it is not necessary
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
If you reject circumcision and say it is not mentioned in the Quran, then how will you answer the above five questions?
(1) All those can attract and maintain dirt on the body. You have already said earlier what the Quran says about physical purity.
(4) The previous point still applies...furthermore, we are to strive to keep our clothes as clean as we can
"And your clothing purify"
"And uncleanliness avoid"
(Sahih International)
If for some reason you're covered in animal sweat the normal thing to do would be to want to wash yourself and your clothes, I assume (more on this line of thinking at the end of the post)2, 3, 5 are similar points so I'll try to tackle them together if you don't mind. Firstly and briefly, see 1666
"And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers."
(Sahih International) (stress added by myself)Moving towards a more general principle on the matter
"O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
"O you who have believed, do not prohibit the good things which Allah has made lawful to you and do not transgress. Indeed, Allah does not like transgressors."
(Sahih International) (stress on 2168 added by myself)
"lawful and good"? The word used, tayyiban, means good/pure. Obviously, what is lawful may not be good/pure ie it may not be clean or something, and vice versa. But there is a distinction to be made between something being unlawful to eat and something being impure, hence why they were seperated out, right? Tying into my point regarding (4) we have common sense. The Quran promotes logic and the use of reason, I doubt you would disagree with this notion. Notably
"He gives wisdom to whom He wills, and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good. And none will remember except those of understanding."
"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason."
(Sahih International)
With this is mind...frankly, I would argue that, along the same lines of circumcision, if the consumption of stool, vomit etc was somehow not impure/bad then the Quran would state so as it only seems to be the logical thing to do to abstain from consuming such things, right? More inherantly logical than cutting off a part of our skin, atleast. On culture, every culture has good and bad elements to it, personally I don't think I know anyone, muslim or non-muslim, who seems to consume dung and animal stool (maybe some do in secret, I can't be sure I suppose) despite it not explicitly being unlawful because no one seems to regard it as "good". If that makes sense. Impure things to consume are not limited to what you listed, heck the 'list' has probably only grown over time, so naturally the principles must be applied. -
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Fresh dates are good for you and apparently Muhammed liked and ate them. So according to your logic, are eating dates mandated by God?
You have made statements that are clearly not true. Instead of addressing and answering direct simple questions, you have circumbulated with your logical fallacies.
Anyhow, you made the statement that circumcision is mandated by God. By the way, God is also member of this forum listening and everything we say and do are indeed permanently recorded on God's tablet which we all at the end have to answer to. God has given us a stern warning not to say "this is from God..." without knowledge, saying what our tongues make up, and imputing lies about God. I keep that in mind.
I suggest that before you say anything about God you best be sure of what you are saying. If you are a proponent of circumcision because of tradition, culture, cosmetic, medical or whatever the reasons, that's fine and none of the reasons would be contradictory to the Koran (in other words not a sin) but to say that God mandated circumcision is a lie. It is a sin to lie about God.
You lie about God, you bear the grave consequences. Putting aside personal consequences, my reverence to God is such that I would not lie about God. If I say anything that is not true, it is out of pure ignorance/lack of better understanding and when someone points out the truths or the error in my ways or understanding, I listen and think about it as surely I do not want to believe in lies told about God and to spread such lies.
Israfeel, several people here have pointed out your logical fallicies. You can choose to continue in your beliefs and arguing. That is your choice. At the end, each soul has to answer to God. I choose to believe in the Truths and not lies. To say that God mandated circumcision is a lie.
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No problem.
Regardless of what scholar or scholarly knowledge you follow you claim to follow the sunnah as do they (Hanafi and Malaki) yet they have different conclusions than you. This shows how you (and they) view, accept or interpret hadith is subjective. Unless you know of a none faulty methodology you'd like to share? if so, please let me know. However, if it is just following Bukhari Sharif, I'd advise you research a bit more about Imam Bukhari before accepting all his hadiths as infallible sources. Also care to share the hadith?
Hanafis, Malikis and other schools of thought teach to blindly follow their Imams, a concept which is called Taqlid. Thus those schools of thought give preference to the verdicts of jurists over and above the Hadith. On the other hand I belong to the Ahlil Hadith sect which gives preference to Hadith over the verdict of any imam or school of thought.
So there are several Ahadith which prove that circumcision is obligatory. For example the Hadith in Bukhari Sharif narrated by Abu Huraira that the Prophet peace be upon him said "Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." It is interesting that Hanafis and Malikis consider all these practices as fard with exception of circumcision. But logically all of these five things should have the same ruling.
Another Hadith in Abu Dawud Sharif mentions that a person accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet peace be upon him, who commanded him to shave off his head from the hair of disbelief and to get circumcised. Based on this Hadith if a man accepts Islam he must shave off his head and if he is uncircumcised he must get circumcised.
Another Hadith which is reported in four books of the Sihhah us Sita where the Prophet peace be upon him said that at the time of the Aqiqah of a newborn baby (on the seventh day) the harmful thing should be removed, referring to the foreskin.
Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.
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(1) All those can attract and maintain dirt on the body. You have already said earlier what the Quran says about physical purity.
(4) The previous point still applies...furthermore, we are to strive to keep our clothes as clean as we can
"And your clothing purify"
"And uncleanliness avoid"
(Sahih International)Thanks for agreeing that the Quran gives general principles encouraging purity, but the details of what exactly that means are not mentioned. Now my question to you is that why you have a problem with circumcision but you agree the other things which are not mentioned in the Quran? There seems to be an inconsistency on your part. All of this only proves how much Islam is incomplete without the Hadith.
If for some reason you're covered in animal sweat the normal thing to do would be to want to wash yourself and your clothes, I assume (more on this line of thinking at the end of the post)
You "assume"? My friend why do we have to assume? We can follow the Hadith with certainty which instructs us how to purify from these things. As I said before, Quran only gives the general principles, details are in the Hadith.
2, 3, 5 are similar points so I'll try to tackle them together if you don't mind. Firstly and briefly, see 1666
"And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers."
(Sahih International) (stress added by myself)So it says milk is pure, but it never said that the cow excretion is impure. In fact only two fluids are declared impure in the Quran, wine and flowing blood. Nowhere in Quran does it say urine, stool, sperm, discharge, vomit, perspiration and saliva of various animals, etc. is impure. You can only say with certainty these things are impure if you go by the Hadith.
Now if you say it is common sense that those things are impure and should be avoided, then I also say it is common sense to do circumcision. What makes your common sense more valid than mine?
And it is true that in many cultures, especially in the West, they do weird sexual things like "golden showers" and oral sex, drinking sperm, etc., I don't want to go into the details because there may be young kids and women reading, but you know what i mean. Where in the Quran does it condemn their evil practices?
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Another Hadith in Abu Dawud Sharif mentions that a person accepted Islam at the hands of the Prophet peace be upon him, who commanded him to shave off his head from the hair of disbelief and to get circumcised. Based on this Hadith if a man accepts Islam he must shave off his head and if he is uncircumcised he must get circumcised.
Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.Assalamu'alaikum Israfeel.
Did you realize if this forum is Quran alone forums, that means they including me intepretating Quran without hadith.
So it's pointless if you using hadith as your bases of your argument since Quran aloners reject will reject it.As I stated in the previous post,it's pointless to do debate like this because the way of intepretating Quran by Quran alone and Sunni is differently each other .
I was former Sunni, but five month ago I joining Quran alone.If I still Sunni I will accept all madzab fiqh teaching (Hanafi, Malikis, Salafi) and all hadith you posting but now as Quran alone I will not recognize that
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Fresh dates are good for you and apparently Muhammed liked and ate them. So according to your logic, are eating dates mandated by God?
Not mandated, but it is good to eat dates. Even the Quran mentions dates many times.
Anyhow, you made the statement that circumcision is mandated by God. By the way, God is also member of this forum listening and everything we say and do are indeed permanently recorded on God's tablet which we all at the end have to answer to. God has given us a stern warning not to say "this is from God..." without knowledge, saying what our tongues make up, and imputing lies about God. I keep that in mind.
What is mandated by the Prophet peace be upon him is mandated by God "Whosoever obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah" (Surah 481)
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Assalamu'alaikum Israfeel.
Did you realize if this forum is Quran alone forums, that means they including me intepretating Quran without hadith.
So it's pointless if you using hadith as your bases of your argument since Quran aloners reject will reject it.As I stated in the previous post,it's pointless to do debate like this because the way of intepretating Quran by Quran alone and Sunni is differently each other .
I was former Sunni, but five month ago I joining Quran alone.If I still Sunni I will accept all madzab fiqh teaching (Hanafi, Malikis, Salafi) and all hadith you posting but now as Quran alone I will not recognize that
If you reject Hadith and only go by Quran-alone, please answer these five questions
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
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According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
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Therefore based on these Ahadith it is clear that circumcision is in fact obligatory, and those who refuse circumcision are committing a sin.
Per God, those who follow other than the Koran are astray. Those who distort, twist God's words, imputing lies about God are committing a sin.
According to your hadiths, circumcision may be obligatory. But not according to God. You are committing a sin by telling lies about God. Israfeel, you will at the end have to answer to God of what you say. I suggest that you think about what you are saying and doing. One sure way of securing yourself a spot in hell is to spread lies about God.
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Salamun'alaikum Israfeel
Ok I will answer you questions
First I don't understand your english, maybe you aren't english speaker.
My answer is simpleIf it's not in the Quran then it's not Allah's commandment
Because
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do
they believe?7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?
See the blue word is in the Mushaf,
This mean like this
77.50 So in what hadis, after it, will they believe?
So the Sunnah/hadith is Quran itself, not anything else.And there is verse which order us not to following hadith beside Quran even Prophet Muhammad was ordered the same.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line -
What is mandated by the Prophet peace be upon him is mandated by God "Whosoever obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah" (Surah 481)
The only "mandate" that prophet Muhammed gave was to follow the Koran.
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Peace,
Who needs hadith to understand the impure nature of urine or any other thing like this?
God bless you
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Salamun'alaikum Israfeel
Ok I will answer you questions
First I don't understand your english, maybe you aren't english speaker.
My answer is simpleIf it's not in the Quran then it's not Allah's commandment
So for you it is not haram to do any of the things i asked in my five questions
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Going by this line of reasoning, removal of pubic hair, armpit hair, and trimming of fingernails and toenails when they become long or dirty are not mentioned in the Holy Quran either. Therefore, according to Hadith rejectors, will such people who do not remove pubic hair, armpit hair, nails, etc., be considered as sinful or not? Western and non-Muslim people do not remove pubic hair/armpit hair, do Hadith rejectors follow their culture also since it is not forbidden in Quran?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, stool, maniyy, madhiyy (seminal fluid), vomit, is impure. According to Hadith-rejectors will a person be sinful if he does not wash off these things from his body or clothes?
-
According to Hadith-rejectors, will a person be sinful for (God forbid) drinking these things which are not explicitly declared impure in the Quran, as this is the culture of many Westerners/non-Muslims?
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According to the Quran, the meat of swine is forbidden, but nowhere in the Quran does it say that the perspiration or saliva of swine, or any other animal for that matter, is impure. If these things get onto the clothes or body of a Hadith-rejector, will he be sinful for not washing them off, or praying while traces of a pig's saliva or perspiration is on his body and/or clothes?
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Nowhere in the Quran does it say that urine, dung, or seminal fluid of any animal is impure. Are these things halal for Hadith-rejectors, and will a Hadith rejector be sinful for touching, drinking, or not removing these traces from his body and clothes?
As Quran says "Laakum Deenukum Waliya Deen"
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So for you it is not haram to do any of the things i asked in my five questions
I'm not saying haram, but it's not in the Quran it means it's not wajib to do it.
So you follow it or not, it's not important.As Quran says "Laakum Deenukum Waliya Deen"
Of course, it's mine deen, it's your deen.It's my tafseer and it's your tafseer.We're different ways of tafseer from the start.