Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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Peace Israfeel,
If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.
Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.
Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.
In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.
Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.
God bless you
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Peace Israfeel,
If you did not notice, I was being ironical or even sarcastic.
Perhaps a little test to see how fast you would come up with conclusive ideas.
Yes, Quran tells you to follow him, but he as a guide is dead and we can only follow his legacy, ie the Quran. Again you are faced back with the Quran. Try again please.
In what hadith other than His do you choose to follow? Yes, God stated that in His book.
Follow the Messenger; yes God wrote that in His Book too, but you cannot follow a dead man, can you? Muhammad was only revealing the Quran, reciting it to his people. That was his duty. And to show what Faith in God can accomplish.
God bless you
Why is it impossible to follow someone who has died if we knew everything about him? Even today many people follow the teachings and ideas of dead people, like Buddha, Gandhi, George Washington, Elvis Prestly, etc.
Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?
By the way Quran says to take whatever the Prophet gives you and abstain from whatever he forbids you. Now we know that Quran is for all time and all people, it is a universal book. But the way you read Quran, half of its commandments no longer apply today. It shows that in reality you are going against Quran.
Also Allah says that the Prophet is not only given Al-Kitab (Quran), but also Al-Hikmah. Now my question to you is what is Al-Hikmah??
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So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
So what you are saying is that what God has commanded is a joke? It is God who gave mankind the Koran, and the faculties (the brain, the vision, wisdom, etc) and told us to follow only His guidance. God did not command that we listen and follow stories told by Abu huraira and company.
I suggest that you read God's words again. Again keep in mind that everything you say and do are being recorded on God's tablet and at the end you have go answer to God. Keep in mind that God is also a member of this forum and listening/reading our posts.
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Of course I believe in the Quran. But nowhere in Quran does it say "Follow only Quran nothing else". In fact, Quran stresses several times to follow the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaih wasallam)
If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company.
If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance. Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.
I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.
I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed.
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Peace,
Because history is always beautified and corrupted with honoring things which never took place, or they are always in favor of the "hero".
Many historic figures are portrayed more righteous than they really were in their life. They may have been good, but not "that good".
The Quran is good because it is our answer keys.
God bless you
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If you really believed in the Koran, then you would believe it when God said the Koran is complete, DETAILED and not look for guidance elsewhere in the stories told by Abu huraira and company.
If you really followed Muhammed then you will do what Muhammed did which is listen to God taking Koran as his guidance. Instead what you do is listen to stories and lies told by people like abu huraira and company about God and the prophets.
I suggest that you seek God for guidance, meditate and contemplate the words of God, thinking of he essence of God and what God cares about and what we will be judged on at the end.
I suggest that you truly follow the Koran and not make any distinction between the messengers and think of the message that prophets including Muhammed relayed.
bravo totally agree
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Why is it impossible to follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him especially when his teachings have been preserved in the Hadith?
Hadith = sayings of Abu huraira and company. Let's get the facts straight. What is recorded and preserved are what abu huraira and company supposedly saw and heard prophet Muhammed say or do.
What prophet Muhammed said is preserved in the Koran by the authority of God.
Israfeel, if you are going to make your claims make them right. You don't follow Muhammed. What you follow is Abu huraira and company. Hadith are a collection of stories told by abu huraira and company. This is what you follow.
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Now let me tell you that our Hadith following women would never write such shameful things. They would die of shame before they could write what this Quran-only woman wrote so casually for the whole world to see. Something to think about.
You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private? Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing.
There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other. I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids, sexual practices of couples, and so on.
Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves.
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Peace,
Right. Do not make a mockery out of God's religion of peace.
God bless you
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Circumcision is essential for cleanliness and purity, but still you people are against it?
You make statements but can you back up your statements?
Again what you are saying is that God created impurity by creating foreskin extending to the glans penis.
by the way depending on skills of the person doing the circumcision sometimes too much or too little foreskin is taken out. So how much foreskin removal would you say is adequate meeting your criteria of "purity". A boy can be circumcised and still has to retract his foreskin.
And how about boys who cannot have circumcision due to medical conditions or genital anomalies like hypospadias, then what you are saying is that these boys will forever remain impure because of God's doing?
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You know what all hadith following women and men are doing in private? Of course, no hadith following people will write about what they are actually doing.
There is nothing shameful in how husband and wife mutually love and enjoy each other. I will say it out loud and clear to the whole world that this is not what God's religion is about - foreskin, pubic hair, bodily fluids, sexual practices of couples, and so on.
Do not make a mockery out of God's message to mankind which is strive to be pious as this is what God loves.
Point to be noted He says that a ''hadither woman would die out of shame for what justamuslim'' said. But why dont hadither women die out of shame when they read hadith which in details describe how muhammad had sex brickwall
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So if you follow Quran only, you never have to
a. be circumcised
b. remove your pubic hair
c. wash yourself after answering call of nature
d. wash dishes which were used by dogs and other animals
e. clean your teeth
f. wash hands before eating
g. donkey is not haram to eat (Quran only people should eat donkey kebabs)
h. insects and vermin are not haram
i. crow is not haram according to Quran only (Quran only people eat kava biryani)
j. Quran only people allowed to drink urine, eat feces, swallow sperm
k. Quran only people allowed to do anal sex
So the Quran-only people are the biggest joke of humanity
How can anyone strive to meet 2222 purity yet hold the view that they would not have to keep their private areas clean, wash themselves, wash what they eat on/keep them clean, clean their teeth, wash their hands, and be able to drink urine, eat feces or swallow sperm? There are things people must do to stay clean, not restricted to the examples you listed, applying the above principle seems more than sufficient, does it not? Why do you need a list, one that would naturally become out-of-date as mankind progresses as it is?
Regarding donkeys, it's cited as an example of grazing livestock used for transportation as opposed to food.
"And of the grazing livestock are carriers and those small. Eat of what Allah has provided for you and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy."
(Sahih International)
The SI translation for this verse is kinda odd, I don't understand where "too small" came from when wafarshan is referring to "meat" here. The Pickthall and Yusuf Ali are, imo, better
"And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you." (Pickthall)
"Of the cattle are some for burden and some for meat eat what Allah hath provided for you, and follow not the footsteps of Satan for he is to you and avowed enemy. " (Yusuf Ali)
Reading 6142 in conjuction with 168
"And the horses, mules and donkeys for you to ride and adornment. And He creates that which you do not know. (Sahih International)
"And horses and mules and asses (hath He created) that ye may ride them, and for ornament. And He createth that which ye know not." (Pickthall)
"And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge." (Yusuf Ali)In my view, as a general principle we're not supposed to eat animals used for travel purposes.
Regarding anal sex, we know from the aforementioned 2222+surrounding verses that we are not to engage in sexual actvitiy with women during their menstrual cycles. I'm not a woman so a sister will probably be able to better explain this than I could, but to my understanding menstruation does not affect the anus, yet sex is not allowed full stop. It seems like as far as sex goes, the Quran only seems to recognize penis-to-vagina sex. Furthermore, the anus simply isn't designed for sexual activity (regardless of how widespread a practice it may have become in some cultures) and has health risks/damage associated to it. It would be for the best interests of both people to avoid it, I'd think.
Regarding circumcision, I am still kinda stumped on the clothing comparison you made earlier. It seems like you're just as stumped by justamuslim's "hypospadias & other conditions that prevent circumcision" though...I'm not sure where to go from here.
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The writers of hadith were not infallible. So I don?t take things lightly.
Where do you get the biography of each and every narrator?
There is evidence against abu huraira, yet he has stated the most hadiths.
Where's your proof? Show me a manuscript of the complete Quran which is dated before the year 633 CE.
I believe I stated this based on sunni sources, it?s not my claim. If you read the link I gave you earlier you?ll have a better idea it discusses about this. However if you want me to show you a manuscript of a complete Quran dating before 633, I can?t do that nor did I say I could. If you think that your argument is fair why don?t you show me the completed manuscript of the so called sahifa sadiqa.
Fitra means something which is natural. Other Hadith show that going against the Fitra is haram. And the Hadith is general, so it applies to women with regard to removing unclean hair, cutting nails, etc. However, there are some parts of the Hadith which are obviously only for men. For example
'A'isha reported The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said Ten are the acts according to fitraclipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water. The narrator said I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim)
Fitra isn?t only that also the narrator forgot the tenth. Part of the hadith criteria for it to be authentic is for the commentator to have excellent retention of memory. How come criteria applies in some cases and not in all?
Now the trimming mustache and letting beard grow obviously only apply to men since women dont have mustache or beard. As for circumcision, there is difference of opinion if it is necessary for women. But other Hadith show that even women should be circumcised but it is not obligatory only recommended.
So based on the vagueness of the hadith not stating who it is addressed to, there can be multiple opinions. Yet you cannot accept this in the Quran. Double standards ?
If circumcision is beneficial as you confess, then why doesnt God obligate it?
Drinking water is beneficial, exercise is beneficial. Do you need God to obligate it for you to know it is beneficial? Why didn?t God obligate it? See how your logic is flawed?
Anyway I?ve finished with this discussion.
The Quran does not obligate circumcision.
Hadith does not obligate it either.
One can extrapolate that it is a sunnah from hadith, that it is a ?fitra? however it is not mentioned as an obligation. None of the hadith evidence you put forth say it is an obligation.
Until you can prove that a hadith states believing man/women must perform circumcision to be considered in the fold of islam your argument is mute. Had you said it is a sunnah and it is commendable then you?d have some validity.
Also before you have a go at Quran Only people and state ridiculous claims, some of what you say is explained in the Quran but you fail to read the verses mentioned to you earlier. If you choose to be ignorant and choose your own understanding of what people believe than you are being dishonest to yourself.
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How can anyone strive to meet 2222 purity yet hold the view that they would not have to keep their private areas clean, wash themselves, wash what they eat on/keep them clean, clean their teeth, wash their hands, and be able to drink urine, eat feces or swallow sperm? There are things people must do to stay clean, not restricted to the examples you listed, applying the above principle seems more than sufficient, does it not? Why do you need a list, one that would naturally become out-of-date as mankind progresses as it is?
You and I agree on this point that when Quran says Allah loves the purified, it means we should not do the above mentioned things. But for some reason you are not adding the importance of circumcision for purity under this general principle.
Regarding donkeys, it's cited as an example of grazing livestock used for transportation as opposed to food.
In my view, as a general principle we're not supposed to eat animals used for travel purposes.Well you're view is going against the view of most Quranists, who quote the following verse
Say "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's" (Surah 6146 Bismillah included)
This verse clearly is saying that apart from dead meat, blood, pork, and that which is dedicated to other than Allah - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HALAL.
This is why Quranists based on this verse are saying they can eat anything, even they can eat feces, because for them only these four things mentioned by Quran are haram.Regarding anal sex, we know from the aforementioned 2222+surrounding verses that we are not to engage in sexual actvitiy with women during their menstrual cycles. I'm not a woman so a sister will probably be able to better explain this than I could, but to my understanding menstruation does not affect the anus, yet sex is not allowed full stop. It seems like as far as sex goes, the Quran only seems to recognize penis-to-vagina sex. Furthermore, the anus simply isn't designed for sexual activity (regardless of how widespread a practice it may have become in some cultures) and has health risks/damage associated to it. It would be for the best interests of both people to avoid it, I'd think.
This is your opinion. Again it is going against the position of most Quranists. Look at my signature, I quoted a Quranist woman on this forum "Justamuslim" she said anal sex and swallowing sperm is allowed and is a good thing (God forbid!). The Quranists use this verse
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you like (Surah 2224 Bismillah included)
So Quranists say that you can approach your wife however you like, including with anal sex.
Now I think that unlike other Quranists, you are a more reasonable and enlightened person. I hope and pray Allah guides you to see the importance of following Hadith otherwise Islam remains incomplete and totally impossible to accept as a Religion of total guidance.
May Allah guide you to the Right Path AMEEEN
btw Quranists do not believe in saying "Ameen" because its not mentioned in Quran laugh
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The point is you admit that the good things in Hadith about hygiene, which are not in the Quran. Now you also say you like Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.
So what happened to following Quran only and Quran is the perfect book no other book is necessary. You admitting that Quran does not contain the full guidance, but there is guidance in Hadith and also Hindu/Buddhist books which is not in Quran.
Very good.
Haaaa haah.You're boring. brickwall
Do you know the fate of a debate with someone like you who are not reading the posts carefully or avoiding the straight point?
The debate will be NO ENDING. -
Haaaa haah.You're boring. brickwall
How didi notice? Man, that was ever an understatement.
Common, Israfeel, loosen up a little bit. With discussions like this neither you nor anybody is going to open de gates or heaven or even hell. Relax, man, relax.
Salaam
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without any disrespect for hadith or any other source of knowledge does Israfeel know that hadithists can drink camel urine/piss yuck , brother Israfeel don't believe all you read please use your own intellect as you alone will be responsible for what you do, no excuses like you followed so and so ...........
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You and I agree on this point that when Quran says Allah loves the purified, it means we should not do the above mentioned things. But for some reason you are not adding the importance of circumcision for purity under this general principle.
Well you're view is going against the view of most Quranists, who quote the following verse
Say "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's" (Surah 6146 Bismillah included)
This verse clearly is saying that apart from dead meat, blood, pork, and that which is dedicated to other than Allah - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HALAL.
This is why Quranists based on this verse are saying they can eat anything, even they can eat feces, because for them only these four things mentioned by Quran are haram.This is your opinion. Again it is going against the position of most Quranists. Look at my signature, I quoted a Quranist woman on this forum "Justamuslim" she said anal sex and swallowing sperm is allowed and is a good thing (God forbid!). The Quranists use this verse
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you like (Surah 2224 Bismillah included)
So Quranists say that you can approach your wife however you like, including with anal sex.
Now I think that unlike other Quranists, you are a more reasonable and enlightened person. I hope and pray Allah guides you to see the importance of following Hadith otherwise Islam remains incomplete and totally impossible to accept as a Religion of total guidance.
May Allah guide you to the Right Path AMEEEN
btw Quranists do not believe in saying "Ameen" because its not mentioned in Quran laugh
Like I said, at this moment in time I see no clear evidence that chopping off one's foreskin grants benefits to physicial cleanliness. If it is someday proven otherwise then I'll have no choice but to change my mind and I'll have to apologize to everyone who I've told this to, but until the seemingly unlikely case of that happening, I'll maintain my aforementioned views on this. Everything else on that list can pretty plainly be categorized as "dirty/filthy"
Regarding the food issue, the aforementioned 6142 (only a couple lines before the one you were quoting, 6145) distinguishes some cattle being used "for burden" and some "for meat". It's a distinction that seems logical enough to mention on it's own, donkeys and the like not considered food because they are tools for transportation services. Some Quranists may disagree with me on this though as it stands I am quite confident in my line of thinking of this matter. Frankly, anyone (muslim or not) who attempts to justify eating feces has issues imo, and I've already explained how the Quran does not support holding that justification (this is different to the circumcision issue as while the benefits vs adverse effects of circumcisions discussion is mixed and unclear, the huge amount risks involved with consuming filth is very clear)
Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)
Like verses are generally subject to the effects of each other, pretty much every muslim agrees on this much. Keeping what I said about 2222 only recognizing penis-to-vagina sex, the "how you like" can really only refer to general foreplay (which goes into the whole oral sex debate, which there seems to be absolutely no consensus on for those are intent on reaching some sorta binding ruling for the issue)
Thank you for the compliment, I guess.
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Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)
Nope, it was not me. Please reread my posts.
I will say it again - what kind of sex husband and wife mutually agree upon and have is nothing shameful or a sin. So on judgement day, God is going to punish couple for having nonvaginal sex? Seriously??
Regarding anal sex, there are safety and health concerns. The anus is for holding feces, is not lubricated and can lead to tears, weakening of the anal sphincter muscle leading to fecal incontinence. For these reasons, I am not a proponent of anal sex and would advice the couple to use condom which most do when engaging in such practices and to use lots of lubricant and practice relaxing BUT i am not a proponent of anal sex not because it is a sin as some here claim.
We need to be careful in saying something is a sin or a shameful act.
Always, people feel a need to draw God into giving support to their own positions, may it be from killing people to couples having sex. need to refrain/stop from doing that. Why? God has made himself clear, don't impute lies about him. So if you find oral, anal sex or edible underwears or whatever else couples do to be disgusting, unclean, impure or whatever then simply don't do it but please don't go around saying it is a sin or a shame or God said so and dictating what or how couples should have sex.
Also keep in mind that the translations are not all accurate noting the background of the translators. Quran is the word of God but the translations are NOT free of bias, prejudice, influence, distortion, misinterpretation and misunderstanding.