Circumcision: The Way of Prophet Abraham
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without any disrespect for hadith or any other source of knowledge does Israfeel know that hadithists can drink camel urine/piss yuck , brother Israfeel don't believe all you read please use your own intellect as you alone will be responsible for what you do, no excuses like you followed so and so ...........
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You and I agree on this point that when Quran says Allah loves the purified, it means we should not do the above mentioned things. But for some reason you are not adding the importance of circumcision for purity under this general principle.
Well you're view is going against the view of most Quranists, who quote the following verse
Say "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's" (Surah 6146 Bismillah included)
This verse clearly is saying that apart from dead meat, blood, pork, and that which is dedicated to other than Allah - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HALAL.
This is why Quranists based on this verse are saying they can eat anything, even they can eat feces, because for them only these four things mentioned by Quran are haram.This is your opinion. Again it is going against the position of most Quranists. Look at my signature, I quoted a Quranist woman on this forum "Justamuslim" she said anal sex and swallowing sperm is allowed and is a good thing (God forbid!). The Quranists use this verse
Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how you like (Surah 2224 Bismillah included)
So Quranists say that you can approach your wife however you like, including with anal sex.
Now I think that unlike other Quranists, you are a more reasonable and enlightened person. I hope and pray Allah guides you to see the importance of following Hadith otherwise Islam remains incomplete and totally impossible to accept as a Religion of total guidance.
May Allah guide you to the Right Path AMEEEN
btw Quranists do not believe in saying "Ameen" because its not mentioned in Quran laugh
Like I said, at this moment in time I see no clear evidence that chopping off one's foreskin grants benefits to physicial cleanliness. If it is someday proven otherwise then I'll have no choice but to change my mind and I'll have to apologize to everyone who I've told this to, but until the seemingly unlikely case of that happening, I'll maintain my aforementioned views on this. Everything else on that list can pretty plainly be categorized as "dirty/filthy"
Regarding the food issue, the aforementioned 6142 (only a couple lines before the one you were quoting, 6145) distinguishes some cattle being used "for burden" and some "for meat". It's a distinction that seems logical enough to mention on it's own, donkeys and the like not considered food because they are tools for transportation services. Some Quranists may disagree with me on this though as it stands I am quite confident in my line of thinking of this matter. Frankly, anyone (muslim or not) who attempts to justify eating feces has issues imo, and I've already explained how the Quran does not support holding that justification (this is different to the circumcision issue as while the benefits vs adverse effects of circumcisions discussion is mixed and unclear, the huge amount risks involved with consuming filth is very clear)
Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)
Like verses are generally subject to the effects of each other, pretty much every muslim agrees on this much. Keeping what I said about 2222 only recognizing penis-to-vagina sex, the "how you like" can really only refer to general foreplay (which goes into the whole oral sex debate, which there seems to be absolutely no consensus on for those are intent on reaching some sorta binding ruling for the issue)
Thank you for the compliment, I guess.
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Justamuslim did say that she was being sarcastic in a follow up post (going off on a tangent slightly, I feel that sarcasm should generally be avoided on forums of any sort. It's something that only really works in conversations where one can hear each other's voices and over the internet, there almost always seems to be atleast one misunderstanding resulting from it lol)
Nope, it was not me. Please reread my posts.
I will say it again - what kind of sex husband and wife mutually agree upon and have is nothing shameful or a sin. So on judgement day, God is going to punish couple for having nonvaginal sex? Seriously??
Regarding anal sex, there are safety and health concerns. The anus is for holding feces, is not lubricated and can lead to tears, weakening of the anal sphincter muscle leading to fecal incontinence. For these reasons, I am not a proponent of anal sex and would advice the couple to use condom which most do when engaging in such practices and to use lots of lubricant and practice relaxing BUT i am not a proponent of anal sex not because it is a sin as some here claim.
We need to be careful in saying something is a sin or a shameful act.
Always, people feel a need to draw God into giving support to their own positions, may it be from killing people to couples having sex. need to refrain/stop from doing that. Why? God has made himself clear, don't impute lies about him. So if you find oral, anal sex or edible underwears or whatever else couples do to be disgusting, unclean, impure or whatever then simply don't do it but please don't go around saying it is a sin or a shame or God said so and dictating what or how couples should have sex.
Also keep in mind that the translations are not all accurate noting the background of the translators. Quran is the word of God but the translations are NOT free of bias, prejudice, influence, distortion, misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
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I misread man of faith's post as your own, my bad justamuslim.
shameful/sinful act distinction is important, I think I myself need to keep that in mind more often as well...
No problemo. At times it is hard to convey things and glad to know that you got what I am saying. )
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Israfeel,
You have the right to disagree, strongly object, be appalled, disgusted or whatever with my views/beliefs and can express your opinions but you do not have the right to ridicule me in the manner that you have by quoting me with your comments as your signature.
I ask that you read the rules of this forum. When you show disrespect for someone, you are only disrespecting yourself.
By the way, you do know that when you mock and ridicule me in the manner that you have only reflects poorly on your permanent record of how you have lived your life and not on mine. You can choose to continue to wrong yourself or do the right thing. Also, do you know that what you are doing shows immaturity? I ask that you stop what you are doing and show some degree of decorum and dignity on his forum. Thank you.
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Peace justamuslim,
The misconduct is a curse for upholding man-made conjecture. Lack of peace and restlessness is the consequence of disobeying God.
God bless you
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How didi notice? D D D D Man, that was ever an understatement.
Common, Israfeel, loosen up a little bit. With discussions like this neither you nor anybody is going to open de gates or heaven or even hell. Relax, man, relax.
Hehehe, I actually laughing after posting some like that.
I'm never mad to Israfeel, but akhi Israfeel is just like Sunnis in my country which I debated, they never go straight point just rounding themself like a tire. -
But why dont hadither women die out of shame when they read hadith which in details describe how muhammad had sex brickwall
rotfl yeah, I read that kind of gossips once in the 'holy book of gossip according to the sunni scholar'.
That's what amaze me on these member of the "Cult Of Muhammad", they want to know everything about Muhammad, including his sexual and also toilet behavior even when Muhammad already long dead.
And I'm more amazed how the 8th century people also invented such stories just to give them a 'reference which they can look up to'.Honestly the above attitude is 'unique' only to the "Cult Of Muhammad", I haven't seen the same behavior in any other cult or religion in the world. I mean does the cult of Jesus / christians ever bothered to ask "How did Jesus take his leak?"
Salam / Peace
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Just wondering how were circumcisions performed back in those days without general or local anesthesia?
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Peace justamuslim,
There were several ways, some ate poisons which affected CNS and sometimes they hit the patient in the head with a club so they went unconscious.
Well, or so they just performed the surgery placing something in the mouth of the patient during operation. The patient often got something to hold on to and sometimes there were people trying to draw the attention of the patient by trying to calm him down.
God bless you
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I am sure that some of the preposterous hadiths were intended as jokes. They are jokes and if you take them as jokes they make sense.
How somebody got to think of them as anything but jokes may be something on which to diagnose a mental disposition devoid of imagination and common sense. Like what, serving 100 women in a night. ?For God sake, that is the kind of jolly joke some bunch of men or women would say in a round of jokes and laughing. ?How on earth could anybody be su nuts as to read such a thing seriously. Can't remember whether it was 100 or what, but something along wild exageration not for a prophet but even for a squid.
Salaam
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Israfeel,
You have the right to disagree, strongly object, be appalled, disgusted or whatever with my views/beliefs and can express your opinions but you do not have the right to ridicule me in the manner that you have by quoting me with your comments as your signature.
I ask that you read the rules of this forum. When you show disrespect for someone, you are only disrespecting yourself.
Madame how have I disrespected or ridiculed you? I only quoted your exact words to the letter. I didn't add a single dot to what you yourself wrote.
So how exactly am I disrespecting or ridiculing you? Are you saying that quote of yours is a source of disrespect and ridicule for you? Well if that's the case I will take it down. Just tell me to take down your quote and I will. But remember, its only your words not mine.
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Madame how have I disrespected or ridiculed you? I only quoted your exact words to the letter. I didn't add a single dot to what you yourself wrote.
So how exactly am I disrespecting or ridiculing you? Are you saying that quote of yours is a source of disrespect and ridicule for you? Well if that's the case I will take it down. Just tell me to take down your quote and I will. But remember, its only your words not mine.
Why did you take my words and use it as your signature? What is your intention? And you think it is showing respect?
If you wish to display your immaturity then by all means continue on. Like I said, your actions show who you are and I believe you have displayed that clearly for everyone - God included.
Take it down when YOU see your behavior as being immature, disrespectful in this discussion forum.
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Just tell me to take down your quote and I will.
Again a display of irresponsibility. Why must she tell you? Don't you have any sense of responsibility yourself? Can't you think and act on your own? Stop putting all responsibility on others.
But remember, its only your words not mine.
No dear brother, these are in effect YOUR words now, because it is YOU who spread'em. HER words were posted ONCE. You then decided to mulitply them... and that's purely on you now.
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Why did you take my words and use it as your signature? What is your intention? And you think it is showing respect?
If you wish to display your immaturity then by all means continue on. Like I said, your actions show who you are and I believe you have displayed that clearly for everyone - God included.
Take it down when YOU see your behavior as being immature, disrespectful in this discussion forum.
Trolling is as old as forums. What makes us think now that it and extinct species? And I doubt that the troll is a bona fide anything, either hadither or anything else.
Salaam
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I was just thinking.... on the flip side, what israfeel is doing may actually be a good thing. There are many lurkers who frequent this forum one of whom may be a closet Sunni or a hadith follower conditioned to feel ashamed for having oral sex with spouse.... Just reading what I said which israfeel is now using as his signature might lead the person to see the fallacies and making him/her think.
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I'm not sure either Israfeel is a Muslim or anti-Muslim troll who pretends to be a Muslim. He extremely supports the blasphemy laws in the hadith created by Bukhari & Buddies 2 centuries after Prophet Muhammad's death. Hs truly upholds the hadith much higher over Quran. According to him, Muslims cannot chew food because Quran does not tell how to chew food.
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http//www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/links.html
http//www.circumcision.org/index.html
Bottom Line Anything not mentioned in Quran is NOT something we should concern ourselves with in terms of spiritual salvation.
My future baby will not go to hell if he is not circumcised. I would never put my son through that.
Remember Allah said that if the Quran were from anyone but God, you would find in it many contradictions. And you can find plenty in Hadith.
I recommend reading 3elm el Jamaa3 by Imam Al Shafi' (The amalgamation of knowledge). He had to debate and convince all the scholars of his time (200 yrs after death of Prophet Muhammad) to embrace Al-Akhbar (stories/hadith), to make them binding and obligatory on Muslims. That should tell you something.