Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

[jhonsonmustafa]

Problem is he has no expertise or much knowledge of Arabic.

Peace,

Please Show mercy to others... It disturbs peace.

[The_Chimp]

Reference is God. Peace out.

And what does that mean?

What does that mean?

---

That I am right . . .you invented it from your mind . . . and referenced it to God!

Is he sending you "messages" now? How do you know it ain't Satan?

---

I mean

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1XaNU20II8

Look! Australian Jesus!

[Man_of_Faith]

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

[The_Chimp]

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill. Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message, Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand. The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

Peace

But I have strong Faith in The Lord. It can surely compensate some petty linguistic skill.

So does the Australian Jesus - in fact his might be stronger . . . the Pope . . . another example. So reading and understanding what the message is . . . that to you is petty? Why?

I thought the WHOLE point is the Quran . . . so why would studying that be petty? I do not get that! I mean that is what it is about.

Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted.

Again - you keep banging on about the message . . . . what message? Who is sending you messages . . .

Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

No we are discussing you. And his tribe were polytheist - yes. But what of it?

It is only when we try to derive more meanings from the words than the simplest possible it becomes disputes. But kitab is message

I do not know what this means.

Quran is book no matter in written or verbal form and can thus surely be recited with or without a physical book at hand.

Yes. But somehow I do not think you can recite it by heart.

The Book is an Arabic book. Salat is simple and plain communication or tie to God, referred by me as Communion. Simple as that.

Again - what does it all mean.

If one wants to make it more complicated than that well fine, but do not involve me when I am fine without all extra-religious stuff.

What extra religious stuff? Learning the Quran is NOT "extra" stuff. It is basic common sense!

I mean how do you live at all . . . is a wonder to me! I did not think one had to make people understand . . . what "learning" is all about!

---

You know nothing about God so opt out from this discussion.

Reference is God and then it is the Book,

Saying that is no help . . . what god?

Is it the one like Joseph Smith . . .?

Australasian Jesus?

Rashad Khalifah and the number 19?

Elijah Muhammad?

What messages have you been getting?

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

[The_Chimp]

I discovered about God on my own

I doubt it . . . as it depends - if you grew up in Sunni/Shia Muslim then you would have been indoctrinated. But explain how?

However - whether you believe in God or not is FUNDAMENTAL question . . . and it is BEFORE whether you choose to follow a religion or not. Hence - even those - like me - indoctrinated as kids when adult have the chance to rethink and choose. However - I do not think this is what you are referring to.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

Try not to get like this . . . and I am ASKING you . . . so please explain.

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

But this is just general guff - practically EVERY sane adult knows this . . . in fact irrespective of whether they believe in God or not!

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Once again . . . you make no sense . . . you are unable to explain yourself . . . and I pose a legitimate question . . .

How is your alleged relationship with god any different than that of the Australian Jesus?

[Joe_Betik]

Peace,

I discovered about God on my own and I did not need any Book for that. It is the example of Abraham that I pointed out in the previous post.

God's Message of course. Do you know anything worth knowing at all?

And what is the Message? Serve the Lord with all your heart and do good. It is quite so easy that even a young child could possibly see right from wrong if it was not from the harsh world and weak minds that we have. Good we have a God to seek help from.

Except the fools need more than that. Stop arguing with me about God when Faith has come to me and go to your conjecture instead and let those who seek the Lord do so without mockery.

Salam Man of Faith,

Please don't be sad. Please calm down, instead. Don't let one person disturb your day, when there are many others who appreciate and welcome what you are doing.

Allow me to quote an earlier post please

...

In fact for some years now I have adopted the opinion that as long as a person refers to God about anything and everything, God will surely guides that person. God will never take that person's faith for granted. Even without that person studying the Q, let alone understands Arabic. So even an illiterate in the North Pole could always ask God, anytime, anywhere, anyhow. God is with us wherever we are.

And the Q that we study was the guide for Muhammad the prophet. It was his guide to becoming into a true servant of God that befits the status of God's 'khalifa' (proxy) in this earthly life. It should be the easier option if we were to study, understand and adhere to the Q. Still we must refer to God for the correct meaning as meant by God. And still we have to empty the cup to rid all types of baggage.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, never ever leave God out of our life equation. Then only will God be the Lord of our comprehension (rabbi al3alameen), the reference, the teacher, the knowledgable, the just, the wise, the compassionate, the understanding, the master at the time of accountability, the supporter, the friend, etc.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605460.msg330680#msg330680

Are you a living proof to my above statement? )

But seriously, guys, when God is the Lord of comprehension in a person's study of the Qur-an, then little knowledge of Arabic might not be any hindrence whatsoever, as the meaning (in the language that person understands) might automatically be revealed upon the person while the person is reading the Arabic text. In other words, while reading the Arabic text, one might just see the meaning (in the language that he/she understands) on the Arabic text itself. And this is also one of the many forms of revelation. I hope this explains.

But, this is just one of the numerous methods that God could employ to make a person fully understand the Qur-an. And we learn about God teaching man in 965 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=5).

In fact, even if a person doesn't know anything about the Qur-an, or even Islam, but the person establishes a correct 'relationship' (salat) with the correct 'God' (Allah), please refer to the hadith on Ibraheem's search for God with logic in Chapter 2, then God will surely provide the person with appropriate guidance.

But why appropriate guidance, you might ask. It depends on what we ask God for.

Any 'ommiy' (one without prior knowledge) could ask questions like "God, who am I? God, where are You? God, am I correct to view this matter like this? God, please guide me to understand this matter correctly." Etc.

But students of the Qur-an like us all here, how many of us ask God for the correct meanings (as meant by God) for certain Arabic words/concepts in the Qur-an, like 'salat' or 'hajj' for example?

In the narratives of past prophets in the Qur-an, we also learn that God's guidance was usually revealed to them on the-need-to-know basis.

So likewise, the same basis is applicable to us too. Meaning, God may or may not reveal everything that we have asked for. Even comprehensions regarding the Chapters or concepts we come across in the Qur-an. Sometimes it is simply a test of patience. Sometimes it is about our level of closeness to God, thus our standing (makam). It might even be due to our carelessness towards past revelations. Or it might be that a revelation might not be appropriate. This is merely my personal comprehensions, but God knows best regarding this matter.

So you see, there is no substitute for 'having God' (apologies for the lack of a better term, and the Malay term is 'bertuhan&#039. Some people may not study, or even heard of, the Qur-an, but they have God in their lives - they are always mindful of God anytime and everytime, anywhere and everywhere. There is every possibility that God may choose to reveal correct guidance to them irrespective of whether they subscribe to the correct or wrong notions about God, or even serve the correct God or the wrong god(s). Past confessions in this forum and elsewhere will attest to the truth of this notion.

Studying the Qur-an does not make a Muslim. Many people study the Qur-an, but they never have God in their lives - they leave God out of the equation, even in their studies of the Qur-an. They thought they could know or understand by themselves as implied in 966-7. (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=6).

So instead of coming closer to God they move further and further away. And instead of becoming peacemakers, they become 'objects of anger' ('almaghdoobi 3alayhim', 17).

So, it is now up to you, Man of Faith, to continue sharing what you have discovered to be the truth to you. I said the truth to you, because sometimes they are really just that, even though I do not rule out any possibility that they could be the truth to us as well.

Please don't ever get distracted by any harsh nor unethical remarks. God be with you, brother!

And as always, this is merely my personal comprehension. It might not necessarily be the truth to anyone here. So be careful with my posts. )

Cheers!
mohammed noh

[The_Chimp]

Salam Man of Faith,

Please don't be sad. Please calm down, instead. Don't let one person disturb your day, when there are many others who appreciate and welcome what you are doing.

Allow me to quote an earlier post please

Are you a living proof to my above statement? )

But seriously, guys, when God is the Lord of comprehension in a person's study of the Qur-an, then little knowledge of Arabic might not be any hindrence whatsoever, as the meaning (in the language that person understands) might automatically be revealed upon the person while the person is reading the Arabic text. In other words, while reading the Arabic text, one might just see the meaning (in the language that he/she understands) on the Arabic text itself. And this is also one of the many forms of revelation. I hope this explains.

But, this is just one of the numerous methods that God could employ to make a person fully understand the Qur-an. And we learn about God teaching man in 965 (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=5).

In fact, even if a person doesn't know anything about the Qur-an, or even Islam, but the person establishes a correct 'relationship' (salat) with the correct 'God' (Allah), please refer to the hadith on Ibraheem's search for God with logic in Chapter 2, then God will surely provide the person with appropriate guidance.

But why appropriate guidance, you might ask. It depends on what we ask God for.

Any 'ommiy' (one without prior knowledge) could ask questions like "God, who am I? God, where are You? God, am I correct to view this matter like this? God, please guide me to understand this matter correctly." Etc.

But students of the Qur-an like us all here, how many of us ask God for the correct meanings (as meant by God) for certain Arabic words/concepts in the Qur-an, like 'salat' or 'hajj' for example?

In the narratives of past prophets in the Qur-an, we also learn that God's guidance was usually revealed to them on the-need-to-know basis.

So likewise, the same basis is applicable to us too. Meaning, God may or may not reveal everything that we have asked for. Even comprehensions regarding the Chapters or concepts we come across in the Qur-an. Sometimes it is simply a test of patience. Sometimes it is about our level of closeness to God, thus our standing (makam). It might even be due to our carelessness towards past revelations. Or it might be that a revelation might not be appropriate. This is merely my personal comprehensions, but God knows best regarding this matter.

So you see, there is no substitute for 'having God' (apologies for the lack of a better term, and the Malay term is 'bertuhan&#039. Some people may not study, or even heard of, the Qur-an, but they have God in their lives - they are always mindful of God anytime and everytime, anywhere and everywhere. There is every possibility that God may choose to reveal correct guidance to them irrespective of whether they subscribe to the correct or wrong notions about God, or even serve the correct God or the wrong god(s). Past confessions in this forum and elsewhere will attest to the truth of this notion.

Studying the Qur-an does not make a Muslim. Many people study the Qur-an, but they never have God in their lives - they leave God out of the equation, even in their studies of the Qur-an. They thought they could know or understand by themselves as implied in 966-7. (http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=96&verse=6).

So instead of coming closer to God they move further and further away. And instead of becoming peacemakers, they become 'objects of anger' ('almaghdoobi 3alayhim', 17).

So, it is now up to you, Man of Faith, to continue sharing what you have discovered to be the truth to you. I said the truth to you, because sometimes they are really just that, even though I do not rule out any possibility that they could be the truth to us as well.

Please don't ever get distracted by any harsh nor unethical remarks. God be with you, brother!

And as always, this is merely my personal comprehension. It might not necessarily be the truth to anyone here. So be careful with my posts. )

Cheers!
mohammed noh

And herein lies the problem

But students of the Qur-an like us all here, how many of us ask God for the correct meanings (as meant by God) for certain Arabic words/concepts in the Qur-an, like 'salat' or 'hajj' for example?

When "Quran only" invent their own meanings - which nicely side with Westernism and then they are asked for proof. . . then it God talking to them . . . sending private messages . . .

So how are these message any different than the Australian Jesus? Like him does everyone invent their own faith?

[muslims]

Now the Message is so simple that I could do without the Book too if I wanted. Are we arguing when Abraham could discover about and serve God while there was not yet revealed any scripture and his father and people was hardcore polytheist?

It is hard to believe that it is simple as what these people claimed to be... especially after considering these facts

• it took thousands of years for Islam to be perfected
• many prophets have been killed
• many muslims and believers have been killed
• God took every detail to present us the facts and proof for us to ponder carefully each word
• and ... and.. and.. and...

Suddenly the message is.. do good to others and we don't even need God's book

Something is missing in this argument... and anything is possible if we don't know what we are talking about.. laugh

p.s. Abraham is a Prophet, and he discovered the path with God's help, before Islam has been perfected.. and there is no internet or google during that day... the authority is out of context.

[muslims]

The truth.. wisdom (hikma) is not easy to acquire, and require us to be free form Shirk, 100% ... and sacrifice everything for Allah, including ourselves. There must be no interest for our own selves at all, even equal to a weight of an atom.

Allah has not made for a man two hearts in his interior.
(334)

Therefore, we do need Book of Allah, to guide and show how it is possible to accomplish all these things and still be able to live as others... to guide and show us how to balance all things, and guide us between what is just, and unjust... during our journey to find the al-Kitab and achieving wisdom (hikmah)

What is the fundamental message of Islam, according to its priority or fiqh awwaliyah, step by step

Weight equally between maslahat and mudharat, from individual to society at large, weight and degree of damages etc...

Balancing all aspects and derive one simple conclusion

ie. not to cause harm to Islam, others, and ourselves

Do explain ... if you have, bring it here and we put into discussion.

To read the Qur'an and identify the

• maslahat (self and others.. priority, not causing harm to others)
• mudharat (self and others.. priority, not causing harm to ourselves)

Then, to apply these rules, according to its priority (awwaliyah)...
(Lesson How trees grow from seeds, so as babies, and everything else in the universe)

and to the
...right people
...right place
...right time

So that our action can create "balance" in ourselves and the society.

Right Rule + Right People + Right Place + Right Time = Balance
= Justice
= Islam

The overall result should be, peace to every human beings and living creatures... and human unity, regardless of religions, race, traditions, gender, tribes, jins... etc.

Mankind was one single nation (2.213)

This is the job of a Khalifa, and path of a true Muslim and Believer.

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

Thanks for your post, Joe Betik. It feels nice to hear that someone appreciates the hours I spend of my private time to channel my inspiration and realization about God and His Message. I could skip it, but I feel I have a responsibility and there is no real personal gain in what I am doing and I do not seek fame nor money but the reward is from God.

The realization with kitab is just a linguistic observation that I have made together with minor Arabic Knowledge and the present translations, and the fact they do not add up with kitab as physical book. Particularly and logically speaking when you hear Abraham talking about books like if he knew the future. Of course he spoke about the Message! A scripture was not revealed until quite long after him. Simply logical deduction and it requires practically no Arabic linguistic skill although I can read the Arabic script and understand a little, praise to God.

You are right about The Chimp. In fact I should feel sorry for him rather than be feeling anything else. Best is to ignore because such people are not willing to contemplate things anyway, but their minds are made up. It is easier to criticize than actually consider what you say in one way or another. The problem is that they can only believe with all the conjecture that their brethren came up with.

I found out about 'The Book' in the end of 2009 and I understood that it was from God, but I had had Faith in God to a certain degree even before that time. I ditched the polytheism I discovered quite fast because the reason I sought Islam was to get rid of the polytheism of Christianity and Jesus as the son of God, but when I discovered that Muhammad was revered like Jesus then I felt disappointed until I finally broke with traditionalism completely forever and sought the creed of father Abraham who was a very pious monotheist who never associated anything or anyone with God and served God only by inspiration because there was no book in his age and the people around him were hardcore polytheists. And he was a very goodly man too.

It is a shame not everyone realizes the simplicity of God's creed. So much work on this thread and even a diagram and references to 'The Book' (Quran) plus deep analysis what was really written even though mainly in English. You see in the Book that God narrates stories when the Messengers came to their respective people and what they said. Did they say more than serve God alone and do good deeds? There you have your Message. The whole Book could be summarized in one simple sentence if necessary and that is without conjecture because the Book says so and not me nor anyone else who would say it. It is God's words. My words are not my own but of the one who sent me and you and all the people.

You are right that God guides whom he pleases from among the people. It is those who honestly seek God's Nearness and Guidance, without associating any partners with Him, who will receive Knowledge and Wisdom, i.e understand the Message and thus eventually see Peace and Prosperity. I am amazed over how much I understand myself so verily we must praise The Lord for the enlightenment.

Of course people do not have to believe every little thing I say, but some things I have the stomach to swear by God that they are true in fact, and then I am very aware that I will be held responsible for what I ever have said or done. The kitab realization is something I say by God that it is true. It is as certain as that God is One and you should do good deeds. It also makes the Message less bound to books than it always has been regarded but rather the substance of it which carries most importance.

Our problem is that we are way too materialistic. We always need more material/proof. That way we always see things as concrete objects and so the kitab has become synonymous with something concrete rather than the substance of an abstract Message. There is really not much in terms of direct divine revelations sent down except the Criterion to Moses and the Book to Muhammad. The other things were written down by indirect inspiration from God and are not God's books in that regard. Refer to big part of Old Testament and New Testament for my idea. They are obviously many times not divine revelation. For example, incest by Lut or many exaggerated stories.

For most people 'The Ten Commandments' should be enough really. Be Good and serve God was the Message all the way. We are ahl al-kitab Joe Betik, anyone who was informed of the Message and there is no escape from the wrath of God if we break His covenant.

God bless you

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace muslims,

The Message is as simple as doing good while believing. Why complicate things. This is what God uses like half the book to explain.

I did not literally mean throw away the Book but rather showed that even without it anyone can embrace God's Message, if they have an honest and good heart.

Well, the Message was perfected at the advent of the Book because it contains more details than any old revelation. Still it is not enough for some people but they still add lots of more conjecture. But how much has really changed in the fundamental Message from day 1? Like nothing at all. It is still believe in God while doing good and work against evil.

EDIT And why were they killed? Because they told people to stop their evil and do good instead and believe in God alone! For that they were killed.

Peace out

[muslims]

It is true that the message is to do good things or "good deeds"..

but what is "good deeds"?

The term "good deeds" is not equal to every individual
human conditions
and to the society as a whole etc.

Human beings and the society have different needs...

Therefore and if we try to explain or understand it deeper

"good deeds" means "justice" to self, others and every individual in the society etc

"Justice" requires "balance"

Wherever there is "balance" ..

there will be "justice"..

and Islam is about "balance" (Sunnatullah)..

it is self evident in every living creatures and nature..

"balance" requires "wisdom" ..

wisdom to be "just" and "balance" to self, others and all living creatures

"Wisdom" requires us to be free from Shirk and 100% reliance upon Allah (spirituality - consciousness)

Good deeds requires...
= Justice .. justice requires...
= Balance .. balance requires..
= Wisdom ... wisdom requires..
= Allah's guidance (Quran) ... Allah's guidance requires..
= 100% reliance upon Allah .. reliance to Allah requires...
= Free from Shirk
= Free from Shirk = Obedience to Allah, not anyone else.. even ourselves

"Say Verily
my prayers (system of our life)
my sacrifice
my life
and my death
are for Allah
the Lord of All the Worlds."
(6162)

and if we seek from the Quran for guidance

This is the formula for achieving wisdom and it start with reciting verses from the Quran

| | It is He who has sent among the unlettered
a Messenger from themselves | |

| | (1) reciting to them His verses
| | (starts with studying verses from the Quran.. then)

| | (2) and purifying them | | (free ourselves from Shirk.. then)

| | (3) and teaching them the Book | | (teaching ourselves... ie. practice the rules, obedience.. exemplary leadership.. then)

| | (4) and wisdom | | (learn how to balance our lives and society etc)

| | although they were before in clear error | |

|
(62.2)

| | |

This is how the society can be changed, and it is a step by step process for achieving wisdom...

These were my views. Allah knows best.

[The_Chimp]

Peace muslims,

The Message is as simple as doing good while believing. Why complicate things. This is what God uses like half the book to explain.

I did not literally mean throw away the Book but rather showed that even without it anyone can embrace God's Message, if they have an honest and good heart.

Well, the Message was perfected at the advent of the Book because it contains more details than any old revelation. Still it is not enough for some people but they still add lots of more conjecture. But how much has really changed in the fundamental Message from day 1? Like nothing at all. It is still believe in God while doing good and work against evil.

EDIT And why were they killed? Because they told people to stop their evil and do good instead and believe in God alone! For that they were killed.

Peace out

that is because they follow conjecture

As admitted so do you . . .

[Man_of_Faith]

Follow conjecture because you follow what it written in the Book and do not add more? What kind of idiocy is that to claim?

Go home to your brethren and stop being an fool around here.

Peace out

[Man_of_Faith]

Before I continue

First I have to apologize for involving myself in futile discussions and polluting the thread (and other threads) and thus derailing it a little, but now it is time to continue on chapter 10 and see that we can continue to show that the Message is very simple and is about having Faith in God and serving Him well by being good and doing good, and showing a good character. After all this analyzed text it is yet weird that people argue otherwise. I will try to concentrate on the Message from now on and less on those who do not contemplate the Message but rather argue on nonsense.

Chapter 10 Message check

Remember I have my own interpretation of The Book and thus it can seem different from standard translations. It is a modified Monotheist translation 2013 unless otherwise told. There is little change except for some words which I interpret a bit controversially, but I have also carefully thought this all through and over a longer period of time.

101 ALR, these are the signs of the Message of Wisdom.

To demonstrate my 'kitab' theory.

102 Is it a surprise for the people who We inspired a man from among them ?Warn the people and give good news to those who believe, that they will have a footing of truth with their Lord.? The rejecters said ?This is clearly magic!?

In the light of our previous discussion and what we have here; the Message is pretty clear.

103 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne; He manages all affairs. There is no intercessor except after His permission. Such is God your Lord, so serve Him. Would you not remember?

Red Remember as that this Book is not really the beginning of the Message but a Reminder of it. Yet people think there is something which separates the previous part of the Message at the advent of this Book.
Blue As usual people abuse this phrase.

104 To Him is your return, all of you, for the promise of God is true. He initiates the creation then He returns it; to recompense with justice those who have believed and have done good works. As for those who have rejected, they will have a boiling drink, and a painful retribution for what they had rejected.

Red Anyone of those who had other Messengers and heed the Message of this Book or the previous Message. They are all the same Message. Cannot you see that there is not much changing in God's Message except that God perfected the system at the advent of this Book as before there were no collected scripture but in the 7th century there came a "hadith" from God, like something of a collector's edition, i.e. what was important from all the Messengers and the narrations are summarized in it and you got God's own expressions in the meantime, and not only the warnings and news from the mouths of the Messengers. Compare this Book to the brief inscriptions given to Moses millennia earlier.

105 He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the signs for a people who know.
106 In the difference between the night and the day and what God has created in the heavens and the earth are signs for a people who are aware.

Red A big portion of The Book goes to give examples of what God has created that we may reflect. As I mentioned before God uses most part of The Book to mercifully implying to convince the reader that He is really real if one thinks about it.

107 As for those who do not wish to meet Us, and they are content with the worldly life, and they feel secure by it, and they are unaware of Our signs.
108 To these will be the destiny of the Fire for what they earned.
109 Those who (1) believe and (2) do good works, their Lord will guide them by their faith. Rivers will flow beneath them in gardens of bliss.

Red Mostly to those who probably are atheists or hypocrite believers who only misbehave and do not really believe.
Blue Why do you think God writes only (1) believe and (2) do good then that He will guide them on a straight path? That is what the Messengers proclaim when they come around. This is why. People argue about tons of extra-religious stuff when the Message is so simple. Rely on the Lord and serve Him to the best of your ability and show your good character.

1015 And when Our clear signs were recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said ?Bring a book other than this, or change it!? Say ?It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great Day!?
1016 Say ?If God had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would you have known about it. I have been residing among you for nearly a lifetime before this; do you not comprehend??
1017 Who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God or denies His revelations? The criminals will never succeed.

Red Book, not Qur'an, if you translate into English.
Blue His contemporaries could possibly have asked him to change The Book so that it added the pagan rituals Muslims world-over are anyways performing after Muhammad left this world. What Muhammad did not write down that they required they themselves wrote down in the mass of hearsay books later on.

1019 The people were but one nation, then they differed. And had it not been for a previous command from your Lord, the matter would have been immediately judged between them for what they differed.
1020 And they say ?If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord.? Say ?The future is with God, so wait, and I will wait with you.?

Red The Messengers did not know the future.
Blue Obviously the Message has a tendency to split people, but it is mainly due to all resulting idolization and conjecture. People likely did not believe Muhammad because God suddenly sent an Arabic Prophet instead of the previous ones who spoke a different language. And history is prone to repeat itself if it came another Messenger in yet another language. Heed my words.

1022 He is the One who carries you on land and on the sea. And when you are on the ships and We drive them with a good wind which they rejoice with, a strong gust comes to them and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think that they are finished, they implore God with loyalty and devotion to His system ?If You save us from this, we will be of the thankful.?
1023 But when He saves them, they then traverse through the land with injustice. ?O people, what you seek out is only the luxury of this worldly life, then to Us is your return and We will inform you of all that you had done.?

Red When only God can save them then they implore God.
Blue But when there is no constant reminder of God then the majority forget about God. Note the injustice.

1025 God calls to the abode of peace, and He guides those whom He wishes to a straight path.
1026 For those who (2) do good will be good and more, and their faces will not be darkened or humiliated. These are the people of the Paradise, in it they will abide.

Red Note those whom HE wishes.
Blue And that is those who ... what? Yes, you are right, those who do good, nothing particularly complicated for good souls, and of course have Faith in God.

1027 As for those who earn evil, the recompense of evil will be evil like it, and they will be humiliated. They do not have anyone to help them from God. It is as if their faces have been covered by a piece of darkness from the night. These are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
1028 And on the Day We gather them all, then We will say to those who were polytheists ?Stop where you are, you and your partners,? then We will separate between them, and their partners will say ?It was not us that you served!?
1029 ?God is enough as a witness between us and you, that we were unaware of you serving us.?

Red Injustice, dogma and zealotry is among evil things.
Blue It is obvious that it is not about stone statues or other such materialistic idols God is talking about here but individuals that people idolized such as popular mullahs and other spiritual leaders, or Muhammad or Jesus..
Green And of course they have no link to this world once they were gone. They are completely unaware of this world after they proclaimed the Message.

These people probably also generated tons of conjecture and attributed it to these individuals.

1031 Say ?Who provides for you from the heavens and the earth? Who possesses the hearing and the eyesight? And who brings the living out from the dead and brings the dead out from the living? And who manages all affairs?? They will say ?God.? Say ?Will you not be righteous!?
1032 Such is God, your true Lord. So what is after the truth except straying! Why then do you turn away?
1033 It was thus that the command of your Lord came against those who were wicked, for they did not believe.

Red Is it not obvious that most of all that God implies in The Book is for people to believe?

1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the Truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
1037 This Book could not have been produced without God; it is to authenticate what is between his hands, and to give details of the Message in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
1038 Or do they say ?He has invented it!? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful.?
1039 No, they have lied about that which they had no Knowledge, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
1040 And there are some of them who believe in it, and some of them do not believe in it. Your Lord is better aware of the transgressors.

Red I cannot understand that people do not see that Qur'an is Book and Kitab is Message in the context of The Book.
Blue The same would be said if there came a revelation in English as of today, for example.
Green Absolutely most everyone would use the expression above if a Messenger suddenly emerged in this age with a refreshment of the Message in its pristine form, except for a few.
Purple If there came yet another reminder of the Message today many people would reject it, but a few would believe. It is always few people who adhere to the Message and has always been.

1041 And if they deny you, then say ?I have my deeds, and you have your deeds. You are innocent from what I do, and I am innocent from what you do.?
1042 And there are some of them who listen to you; but can you make the deaf hear, if they do not comprehend?
1043 And there are some of them who look at you; but can you guide the blind, if they do not see?

Red It obviously falls down on the deeds again (2) and this only highlights its importance in God's system. Do good and not bad.

1059 Say ?Have you seen what God has sent down to you from provisions, then you have made some of it forbidden and some lawful?? Say ?Did God authorize you, or do you invent lies about God??

Red All the stuff in this world that people deem haram or halal without God's authorization goes under this.

1061 And any matter you are in, or any reciting you do of the Book, or any work you do; We are witnesses over you when you undertake it. Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even the weight of an atom on the earth or in the heavens, nor smaller than that nor larger, except it is in a clear record.

Red I.e God is aware of everything you do.

1062 For the allies of God, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
1063 Those who have (1) believed and are aware.

1078 They said ?Have you come to us to turn us away from that which we found our fathers upon, and so that you two would have greatness in the land? We will not believe in you.?

Red Most people would say the same today to defend the traditions.

1083 But none believed in Moses from his people except some from their descendants, because of their fear from Pharaoh and his commanders that he would persecute them. Pharaoh was high in the land, and he was of the tyrants.

Red They were more afraid of Pharaoh which was visible than in God which they could not see. The same could be related to today in certain places many people are often afraid of expressing their true Faith in fear of persecution.

1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?You shall seek out homes for your people in Egypt; and leave your homes to be a focal point, and hold the Communion. And give good news to the believers.?
1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?
1089 He said ?Your call has been responded to, so keep straight and do not follow the path of those who do not know.?

Moses established a strong bond to God together with some faithful people and held a Communion in which he prayed for this and God granted him his wish.

1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said ?I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted.?
1091 ?Now you say this? While before you disobeyed and were of the corrupters!?
1092 ?This day, We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you.? But most of the people are unaware of Our signs!

Red Pharaoh held one final Communion, perhaps the first in his life and God clearly responded in such a way He normally only does to those who believe in God and frequently do Communion and have reached a strong bonding. This was because the next moment God made the flood drown the disobedient Pharaoh anyway so thus he left the world.

1094 If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been acknowledging the Message from before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

Red I daringly throw in a challenging translation here based on the word root which means acknowledge. There is a dog buried somewhere here in the understanding of the language, when you simply cut out a few letters it means acknowledge. I translated accordingly. Now I repeat that I use my own logic here and a bit of finesse although you know I am not an expert in Arabic. You see how much distortion there is in the Message due to interpretation misses. I had difficulties proving my Message theory on this verse so I begun to analyze the verse and discovered this which might be interesting to some people.

1099 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?
10100 And it is not for a soul to believe except with the permission of God. And He lets taint those who do not comprehend.
10101 Say ?Look at all that is in the heavens and the earth.? But what good are the signs and warnings to a people who do not believe?

What is the intention of the Message really if you study it with an open heart? Personally I do this work that someone may be enlightened but I am not here to argue with those who are here to argue and if what I say does not make any sense then disregard it. But if you studied my thread from the start and applied some thinking to it I hope you understand that I am not only writing a lot of gibberish but somewhat useful things in the simple manner that the Message is.

10108 Say ?O people, the Truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is being guided for himself, and whoever is misguided will remain so, and I am not a caretaker over you.?
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges. And He is the best of judges.

RedYes. The Message that was proclaimed in The Book was the Truth that came to the people and there Muhammad's responsibility ended.
Blue This applies to anyone who holds Communion and establishes a tie to God. Else why use the conjunction 'and' (&#1608 after the preceding verse.

Hence we see that even the Arabic 'noob' can interpret the Message. It has nothing to do with linguistic skill. I have fine experts who translated the verses so I can go in like in program code of a computer application and just analyze the code. Simple as that. If I break down the words into morphemes then they still carry their root meaning which other words are built upon and they generally do not very much from the root or at least the same fundamental meaning. As in the example of 1094 I am certain that the root of the word given example of means what I translated it to without complicating things and you see that it wonderfully suits the context, also considered you cannot read a Message in that regard, but you can acknowledge it. And I learned something new myself of Arabic grammar in the terms of vs and their usage which might be useful for other encounters of words. In 1094 (al-ketaab) could logically not been a book since there was no real book from before, but Messengers among them who brought the Message.

Dare to challenge what you know and see it in a new Light. I understand that my 1094 interpretation seems a bit far-fetched, but give it some thought and try to divide the morphemes of it and seek the root. When I saw this new Light of interpretation I have understood that people do not know as much about The Book as they claim. Not saying I know everything, but it gets clearer at least, and I know but very little Arabic, although I spot-analyze the text where I deem it necessary to check whether an interpreted meaning does really add up. None of the traditional understandings of add up for me. But changing the literal meaning of 'ketaab' and '/ ' gives a new Light to it.

(I am aware that my translation of as Message does not match with verses like 2282 since it implies on writing something down with traditional understanding and I am working on this with my limited Arabic skill. Totally frustrating when linguistically it does seem to add up coherently in the fluency of text. However, I have noted that the translation of 2282 and surrounding verses are very lackluster and I have a weird feeling that there is something fishy here. In fact I am very suspicious about 2282-286 as pertaining to the Message. Sorry now I think I am forced to learn Arabic for sure because I sense corruption.)

I hope you will not cast me out as a Rashad Khalifa copycat &

God bless you and good night

[The_Chimp]

Before I continue

First I have to apologize for involving myself in futile discussions and polluting the thread (and other threads) and thus derailing it a little, but now it is time to continue on chapter 10 and see that we can continue to show that the Message is very simple and is about having Faith in God and serving Him well by being good and doing good, and showing a good character. After all this analyzed text it is yet weird that people argue otherwise. I will try to concentrate on the Message from now on and less on those who do not contemplate the Message but rather argue on nonsense.

Chapter 10 Message check

Remember I have my own interpretation of The Book and thus it can seem different from standard translations. It is a modified Monotheist translation 2013 unless otherwise told. There is little change except for some words which I interpret a bit controversially, but I have also carefully thought this all through and over a longer period of time.

101 ALR, these are the signs of the Message of Wisdom.

To demonstrate my 'kitab' theory.

102 Is it a surprise for the people who We inspired a man from among them ?Warn the people and give good news to those who believe, that they will have a footing of truth with their Lord.? The rejecters said ?This is clearly magic!?

In the light of our previous discussion and what we have here; the Message is pretty clear.

103 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne; He manages all affairs. There is no intercessor except after His permission. Such is God your Lord, so serve Him. Would you not remember?

Red Remember as that this Book is not really the beginning of the Message but a Reminder of it. Yet people think there is something which separates the previous part of the Message at the advent of this Book.
Blue As usual people abuse this phrase.

104 To Him is your return, all of you, for the promise of God is true. He initiates the creation then He returns it; to recompense with justice those who have believed and have done good works. As for those who have rejected, they will have a boiling drink, and a painful retribution for what they had rejected.

Red Anyone of those who had other Messengers and heed the Message of this Book or the previous Message. They are all the same Message. Cannot you see that there is not much changing in God's Message except that God perfected the system at the advent of this Book as before there were no collected scripture but in the 7th century there came a "hadith" from God, like something of a collector's edition, i.e. what was important from all the Messengers and the narrations are summarized in it and you got God's own expressions in the meantime, and not only the warnings and news from the mouths of the Messengers. Compare this Book to the brief inscriptions given to Moses millennia earlier.

105 He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the signs for a people who know.
106 In the difference between the night and the day and what God has created in the heavens and the earth are signs for a people who are aware.

Red A big portion of The Book goes to give examples of what God has created that we may reflect. As I mentioned before God uses most part of The Book to mercifully implying to convince the reader that He is really real if one thinks about it.

107 As for those who do not wish to meet Us, and they are content with the worldly life, and they feel secure by it, and they are unaware of Our signs.
108 To these will be the destiny of the Fire for what they earned.
109 Those who (1) believe and (2) do good works, their Lord will guide them by their faith. Rivers will flow beneath them in gardens of bliss.

Red Mostly to those who probably are atheists or hypocrite believers who only misbehave and do not really believe.
Blue Why do you think God writes only (1) believe and (2) do good then that He will guide them on a straight path? That is what the Messengers proclaim when they come around. This is why. People argue about tons of extra-religious stuff when the Message is so simple. Rely on the Lord and serve Him to the best of your ability and show your good character.

1015 And when Our clear signs were recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said ?Bring a book other than this, or change it!? Say ?It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great Day!?
1016 Say ?If God had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would you have known about it. I have been residing among you for nearly a lifetime before this; do you not comprehend??
1017 Who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God or denies His revelations? The criminals will never succeed.

Red Book, not Qur'an, if you translate into English.
Blue His contemporaries could possibly have asked him to change The Book so that it added the pagan rituals Muslims world-over are anyways performing after Muhammad left this world. What Muhammad did not write down that they required they themselves wrote down in the mass of hearsay books later on.

1019 The people were but one nation, then they differed. And had it not been for a previous command from your Lord, the matter would have been immediately judged between them for what they differed.
1020 And they say ?If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord.? Say ?The future is with God, so wait, and I will wait with you.?

Red The Messengers did not know the future.
Blue Obviously the Message has a tendency to split people, but it is mainly due to all resulting idolization and conjecture. People likely did not believe Muhammad because God suddenly sent an Arabic Prophet instead of the previous ones who spoke a different language. And history is prone to repeat itself if it came another Messenger in yet another language. Heed my words.

1022 He is the One who carries you on land and on the sea. And when you are on the ships and We drive them with a good wind which they rejoice with, a strong gust comes to them and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think that they are finished, they implore God with loyalty and devotion to His system ?If You save us from this, we will be of the thankful.?
1023 But when He saves them, they then traverse through the land with injustice. ?O people, what you seek out is only the luxury of this worldly life, then to Us is your return and We will inform you of all that you had done.?

Red When only God can save them then they implore God.
Blue But when there is no constant reminder of God then the majority forget about God. Note the injustice.

1025 God calls to the abode of peace, and He guides those whom He wishes to a straight path.
1026 For those who (2) do good will be good and more, and their faces will not be darkened or humiliated. These are the people of the Paradise, in it they will abide.

Red Note those whom HE wishes.
Blue And that is those who ... what? Yes, you are right, those who do good, nothing particularly complicated for good souls, and of course have Faith in God.

1027 As for those who earn evil, the recompense of evil will be evil like it, and they will be humiliated. They do not have anyone to help them from God. It is as if their faces have been covered by a piece of darkness from the night. These are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide.
1028 And on the Day We gather them all, then We will say to those who were polytheists ?Stop where you are, you and your partners,? then We will separate between them, and their partners will say ?It was not us that you served!?
1029 ?God is enough as a witness between us and you, that we were unaware of you serving us.?

Red Injustice, dogma and zealotry is among evil things.
Blue It is obvious that it is not about stone statues or other such materialistic idols God is talking about here but individuals that people idolized such as popular mullahs and other spiritual leaders, or Muhammad or Jesus..
Green And of course they have no link to this world once they were gone. They are completely unaware of this world after they proclaimed the Message.

These people probably also generated tons of conjecture and attributed it to these individuals.

1031 Say ?Who provides for you from the heavens and the earth? Who possesses the hearing and the eyesight? And who brings the living out from the dead and brings the dead out from the living? And who manages all affairs?? They will say ?God.? Say ?Will you not be righteous!?
1032 Such is God, your true Lord. So what is after the truth except straying! Why then do you turn away?
1033 It was thus that the command of your Lord came against those who were wicked, for they did not believe.

Red Is it not obvious that most of all that God implies in The Book is for people to believe?

1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the Truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
1037 This Book could not have been produced without God; it is to authenticate what is between his hands, and to give details of the Message in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
1038 Or do they say ?He has invented it!? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful.?
1039 No, they have lied about that which they had no Knowledge, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
1040 And there are some of them who believe in it, and some of them do not believe in it. Your Lord is better aware of the transgressors.

Red I cannot understand that people do not see that Qur'an is Book and Kitab is Message in the context of The Book.
Blue The same would be said if there came a revelation in English as of today, for example.
Green Absolutely most everyone would use the expression above if a Messenger suddenly emerged in this age with a refreshment of the Message in its pristine form, except for a few.
Purple If there came yet another reminder of the Message today many people would reject it, but a few would believe. It is always few people who adhere to the Message and has always been.

1041 And if they deny you, then say ?I have my deeds, and you have your deeds. You are innocent from what I do, and I am innocent from what you do.?
1042 And there are some of them who listen to you; but can you make the deaf hear, if they do not comprehend?
1043 And there are some of them who look at you; but can you guide the blind, if they do not see?

Red It obviously falls down on the deeds again (2) and this only highlights its importance in God's system. Do good and not bad.

1059 Say ?Have you seen what God has sent down to you from provisions, then you have made some of it forbidden and some lawful?? Say ?Did God authorize you, or do you invent lies about God??

Red All the stuff in this world that people deem haram or halal without God's authorization goes under this.

1061 And any matter you are in, or any reciting you do of the Book, or any work you do; We are witnesses over you when you undertake it. Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even the weight of an atom on the earth or in the heavens, nor smaller than that nor larger, except it is in a clear record.

Red I.e God is aware of everything you do.

1062 For the allies of God, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.
1063 Those who have (1) believed and are aware.

1078 They said ?Have you come to us to turn us away from that which we found our fathers upon, and so that you two would have greatness in the land? We will not believe in you.?

Red Most people would say the same today to defend the traditions.

1083 But none believed in Moses from his people except some from their descendants, because of their fear from Pharaoh and his commanders that he would persecute them. Pharaoh was high in the land, and he was of the tyrants.

Red They were more afraid of Pharaoh which was visible than in God which they could not see. The same could be related to today in certain places many people are often afraid of expressing their true Faith in fear of persecution.

1087 And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?You shall seek out homes for your people in Egypt; and leave your homes to be a focal point, and hold the Communion. And give good news to the believers.?
1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?
1089 He said ?Your call has been responded to, so keep straight and do not follow the path of those who do not know.?

Moses established a strong bond to God together with some faithful people and held a Communion in which he prayed for this and God granted him his wish.

1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But when he was certain to drown, he said ?I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who have submitted.?
1091 ?Now you say this? While before you disobeyed and were of the corrupters!?
1092 ?This day, We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you.? But most of the people are unaware of Our signs!

Red Pharaoh held one final Communion, perhaps the first in his life and God clearly responded in such a way He normally only does to those who believe in God and frequently do Communion and have reached a strong bonding. This was because the next moment God made the flood drown the disobedient Pharaoh anyway so thus he left the world.

1094 If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask those who have been acknowledging the Message from before you. The truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

Red I daringly throw in a challenging translation here based on the word root which means acknowledge. There is a dog buried somewhere here in the understanding of the language, when you simply cut out a few letters it means acknowledge. I translated accordingly. Now I repeat that I use my own logic here and a bit of finesse although you know I am not an expert in Arabic. You see how much distortion there is in the Message due to interpretation misses. I had difficulties proving my Message theory on this verse so I begun to analyze the verse and discovered this which might be interesting to some people.

1099 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?
10100 And it is not for a soul to believe except with the permission of God. And He lets taint those who do not comprehend.
10101 Say ?Look at all that is in the heavens and the earth.? But what good are the signs and warnings to a people who do not believe?

What is the intention of the Message really if you study it with an open heart? Personally I do this work that someone may be enlightened but I am not here to argue with those who are here to argue and if what I say does not make any sense then disregard it. But if you studied my thread from the start and applied some thinking to it I hope you understand that I am not only writing a lot of gibberish but somewhat useful things in the simple manner that the Message is.

10108 Say ?O people, the Truth has come to you from your Lord, so whoever is guided is being guided for himself, and whoever is misguided will remain so, and I am not a caretaker over you.?
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until God judges. And He is the best of judges.

RedYes. The Message that was proclaimed in The Book was the Truth that came to the people and there Muhammad's responsibility ended.
Blue This applies to anyone who holds Communion and establishes a tie to God. Else why use the conjunction 'and' (&#1608 after the preceding verse.

Hence we see that even the Arabic 'noob' can interpret the Message. It has nothing to do with linguistic skill. I have fine experts who translated the verses so I can go in like in program code of a computer application and just analyze the code. Simple as that. If I break down the words into morphemes then they still carry their root meaning which other words are built upon and they generally do not very much from the root or at least the same fundamental meaning. As in the example of 1094 I am certain that the root of the word given example of means what I translated it to without complicating things and you see that it wonderfully suits the context, also considered you cannot read a Message in that regard, but you can acknowledge it. And I learned something new myself of Arabic grammar in the terms of vs and their usage which might be useful for other encounters of words. In 1094 (al-ketaab) could logically not been a book since there was no real book from before, but Messengers among them who brought the Message.

Dare to challenge what you know and see it in a new Light. I understand that my 1094 interpretation seems a bit far-fetched, but give it some thought and try to divide the morphemes of it and seek the root. When I saw this new Light of interpretation I have understood that people do not know as much about The Book as they claim. Not saying I know everything, but it gets clearer at least, and I know but very little Arabic, although I spot-analyze the text where I deem it necessary to check whether an interpreted meaning does really add up. None of the traditional understandings of add up for me. But changing the literal meaning of 'ketaab' and '/ ' gives a new Light to it.

(I am aware that my translation of as Message does not match with verses like 2282 since it implies on writing something down with traditional understanding and I am working on this with my limited Arabic skill. Totally frustrating when linguistically it does seem to add up coherently in the fluency of text. However, I have noted that the translation of 2282 and surrounding verses are very lackluster and I have a weird feeling that there is something fishy here. In fact I am very suspicious about 2282-286 as pertaining to the Message. Sorry now I think I am forced to learn Arabic for sure because I sense corruption.)

I hope you will not cast me out as a Rashad Khalifa copycat &

God bless you and good night

I will try to concentrate on the Message from now on and less on those who do not contemplate the Message but rather argue on nonsense.

You really are . . . aren't you?

It is an essential and basic question . . . who is sending you messages? Something which you have not been able to answer. But are still trying to push nonsense about.

[Man_of_Faith]

Before I continue, again

Okay. Last time we went through chapter 10 and I did some possibly amazing discoveries, but I am not yet ready to reevaluate the last verses of chapter 2. I only consider something suspicious at this time. It could also be that the verses are completely misunderstood from the original Arabic. It does not affect my understanding that 'ketaab' means an abstract Message in the context of The Book. Anyway, form your own opinion in case you do not agree or choose to follow the best and ignore the rest. We will return to that topic at a later time. The whole point with this thread; to repeat it once more, is to discuss the chain of Faith, i.e. Nearness and Guidance which leads to Knowledge and Wisdom through the Grace of God and thus eventually lead to Peace and Prosperity and absolute certainty. As you might have understood by now I have to proclaim the Message to be able to help someone approach the chain of Faith as in to know what the Message means. Like I said, and the Message says (1) Believe in God and (2) be of a goodly character. It is as simple as that basically.

Chapter 11 Message check

111 ALR, a Message in which its revelations have been made lawgiving, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.
112 ?That you shall serve none other than God. I am to you from Him a warner and a bearer of good news.?
113 ?And seek forgiveness from your Lord, then repent to Him; He will provide you with good provisions to an appointed term. And He bestows His grace upon those who are of grace.? And if they turn away ?Indeed, I fear for you the retribution of a great day!?

Red This is practically the Message; (1) Faith in the One and (2) seek forgiveness and repent, and reform.
Blue The limitation of the Messenger's duty. The obedience to the Messenger so often abused in The Book is basically to "hearken unto the Message".

1111 Except for those who are (1) patient and (2) do good works; these will have a pardon, and a great reward.

Red This is a test of Faith and often comes to the person who seeks the Truth that they might not see results in their service of God until quite a long while and many people who are not steadfast eventually turn away from God because they did not have patience to see that God is really real with their own intuition.

1117 For those who are on a clarity from their Lord, and are followed by a testimony from Him; and before it was the Message of Moses, a beacon and a mercy; they will believe in it. And whoever rejects it from among the Confederates, then the Fire is his meeting place. So do not be in any doubt about it. It is the truth from your Lord, but most of the people do not believe.

1123 Those who (1) believe and (2) do good works, and are humble towards their Lord; they are the dwellers of the Paradise, in it they will remain.

Believe and do good, believe and do good, believe and do good; how many times have you done good this last year?

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When Noah came with the Message to his people (Believe (1) and (2) do good)

1125 And We had sent Noah to his people (3) ?I am to you a clear warner!?
1126 (1) ?That you serve none except God. I fear for you the retribution of a painful day.?
1127 The leaders who rejected from among his people said (-3, -1) ?We do not see you except as a human being like us, and we see that only the lowest among our people who have no opinion have followed you. And we do not see a thing that makes you better than us; in fact, we think you are liars.?
1128 He said ?O my people, do you see that should I be upon a clarity from my Lord, and He has given me a mercy from Himself, that you may be blinded to it? Shall we compel you to it while in-fact you hate it??
1129 ?And my people, I do not ask you for money, my wage is from God. Nor will I turn away those who believe, for they will meet their Lord. But I see that you are a people who are ignorant.?
1130 ?And my people, who will give me victory against God if I turn them away? Will you not remember!?
1131 ?Nor do I say to you that I have the treasures of God, nor do I know the future, nor do I say that I am an angel, (-2) nor do I say to those whom your eyes look down upon that God will not grant them any good. God is more aware of what is in their souls; in such case I would be among the wicked.?
1132 They said ?O Noah, you have argued with us, and continued arguing with us, so bring us what you promise us if you are of the truthful ones.?
1133 He said ?It is God who will bring it to you if He wishes; you will not have any escape.?
1134 ?And my advice will not benefit you if I wanted to advise you and God wanted that you should go astray. He is your Lord, and to Him you will return.?

< -- >

1145 And Noah called on his Lord, and he said ?My Lord, my son is from my family, and your promise is the truth, and you are the Wisest of all Judges.?
1146 He said ?O Noah, he is not from your family, he was of an unrighteous deed, so do not ask what you have no knowledge of. I advise you not to be of the ignorant.?
1147 He said ?My Lord, I seek refuge with You from asking You what I do not have knowledge of. And if You do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I will be of the losers!?
1148 It was said ?O Noah, descend in peace from Us and blessings upon you and upon nations to come from those with you. And nations whom We will give enjoyment, then a painful retribution will reach them from Us.?

The Message is pretty clear what God wanted to have conveyed.

1149 This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. Neither did you nor your people know this, so be patient; the ending will be for the righteous.

Orange The audience of The Book is the people about 1400 years ago no matter what people claim. The Message is just the same as before or nowadays, but it is just an observation worth noticing. It was likely one of the miracles that Muhammad the Prophet had such Knowledge of things which the previous receivers of the Message kept to themselves as The Book clarifies.

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1150 And to ?Aad was sent their brother Hud. He said (1) ?My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; you are simply conjecturing.?
1151 ?My people, I do not ask you for any wage, my wage is from the One who has initiated me. Will you not comprehend??
1152 ?And my people, seek forgiveness from your Lord, then repent to Him; He will send the sky to you abundantly, and He will add might to your might. So do not turn away as criminals.?
1153 They said ?O Hud, you have not come to us with any proof, nor will we leave our gods based on what you say. We will not believe in you.?
1154 ?All we can say is that perhaps some of our gods have seized you with evil.? He said ?I make God my witness, and all of you witness, that I am innocent of what you have set up.?
1155 ?Besides Him, so plan against me all of you, then do not give me respite.?
1156 (1) * ?I have placed my trust in God, my Lord and your Lord. There is not a creature except He will seize it by its forelock. My Lord is on a straight path.?
1157 ?So, if you turn away, then I have delivered what I have been sent to you with, and my Lord will bring after you a people who are not like you; and you cannot harm Him the least. My Lord is Guardian over all things.?
1158 And when Our command came, We saved Hud and those who had believed with him by a mercy from Us, and We saved them from a mighty retribution.
1159 Such was the case of ?Aad. They disregarded the revelations of their Lord, and they disobeyed His messengers, and they followed the command of every stubborn tyrant.

• Famous quote, is it not?

Green Their error was that they listened to the conjecture blindly and they did not use their own brains. I swear that the same thing would happen again if there was a Messenger coming around.

It seems that the people have a slightly different warning they need if there came a revelation from God today as the same kind of polytheism is not the main problem today but rather the tons of conjecture associated with the system of God. However, we must remember that some people still believe that God has associates such as Jesus and Buddha etc. And they believe Jesus is a mediator between God and the people and that Jesus can intercede. Sadly Muhammad has nearly this status too as in certain groups Muhammad has this power of intercession. Most probably they would use the Messengers they have taken as lords to argue against you if you would become a Messenger and proclaim the Message, and they would defend their tons of conjecture.

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1161 And to Thamud was their brother Saleh. He said (1) ?O my people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. He has established you from the earth, and has made you settle in it; so seek His forgiveness, then repent to Him. My Lord is Near, Responsive.?
1162 They said ?O Saleh, you were well liked among us before this. Do you prohibit us from serving what our fathers served? We are in serious doubt as to what you are inviting us.?
1163 He said ?O my people, do you see that should I be upon a clarity from my Lord, and He has given me a mercy from Himself. Who would then support me against God if I disobey Him? You would only increase me in loss!?
1164 ?And O my people, this is the camel of God, in her you have a sign. So leave her to eat from God?s earth freely, and do not harm her, or else a close retribution will take you.?
1165 But they slaughtered her. So he said ?Take enjoyment in your dwellings for three days. This is a promise not to be denied.?
1166 So, when Our command came, We saved Saleh and those who had believed with him by a mercy from Us and against the disgrace of that day. Your Lord is the Powerful, the Noble.
1167 And those who had wronged were taken by the scream, thus they became lifeless in their homes.
1168 It is as if they had never lived there. For Thamud (-1) rejected their Lord. So away with Thamud.

So what is the Message really?

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1169 And Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they said ?Peace? He said ?Peace,? and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf.
1170 But when he saw that their hands did not go towards it, he mistrusted them, and he began to have fear of them. They said ?Have no fear, we have been sent to the people of Lot.?
1171 And his wife was standing, so she laughed when We gave her the good news of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob.
1172 She said ?O my! Shall I give birth when I am an old woman, and here is my husband an old man? This is indeed a strange thing!?
1173 They said ?Do you wonder at the decree of God? The mercy of God and blessings are upon you O people of the Sanctuary. He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.?
1174 So when the shock left Abraham, and the good news was delivered to him, he began to argue with Us for the people of Lot.
1175 Abraham was compassionate, kind, obedient.
1176 ?O Abraham, turn away from this. The command of your Lord has been passed, and a retribution that will not be turned back is coming for them.?

Green Abraham's wife must have had a slightly weak Faith.
Purple We must remember that Messengers can come in the form as controllers/angels and thus we may not immediately understand that they are just that. It is something to keep in mind although a minimal minority of the Believers will ever have the chance in this life.

Abraham was surely a good role model of a staunch Believer in God and as a personality. It is frequently narrated that Abraham is a very good example. He used the roasted calf as a test for the guests that came to his house.

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1177 And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved by them and he felt discomfort for them and he said ?This is a distressful day.?
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said (2) ?My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no wise man among you??
1179 They said ?You know we have no interest in your daughters, and (-2) you are aware of what we want!?
1180 He said ?If only I had strength against you, or I could find for myself some powerful support.?
1181 They said ?O Lot, we are messengers of your Lord; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their scheduled time will be the morning. Is the morning not near??
1182 So when Our command came, We made its highest part become its lowest, and We rained on it with hardened fiery projectiles.
1183 Marked from your Lord, and they are never far from the wicked.

Although "sodomy" is the crime in this narration it can hardly be the only problem since also Lot's wife is killed. I am not sure if it has to do with that Lot's wife was told not to look back when they ran for the mountains but she did that and was immediately killed. But here you see that Lot knew even before that she was going to be killed. Sodomy can only be part of the story.

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1184 And to Midyan was their brother Shu?ayb, he said ?My people, (1) serve God, you have no god besides Him, and (2) do not give short in the measure and the weight. I see you in prosperity, and I fear for you the retribution of a day that is surrounding.?
1185 ?And my people, give (2) full in the measure and the weight equitably, and do not hold back from the people what is theirs, and do not roam the land corrupting.?
1186 ?What will remain for you with God is far better if you are believers. And I am not a guardian over you.?
1187 They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your Communion order you that we (-1) leave what our fathers served, or (-2) that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!?
1188 He said ?O my people, do you see that if I am on clear evidence from my Lord, and He has provided me with good provision from Him, (2) then I would not want to contradict by doing what I am prohibiting you from. I only want to make right what I can, and my guidance is only with God. To Him I place my trust, and to Him I repent.?
1189 ?And my people, let not your hatred towards me incriminate you that you suffer the fate of what afflicted the people of Noah, or the people of Hud, or the people of Saleh; and the people of Lot were not far off from you.?
1190 ?And seek forgiveness from your Lord then repent to Him. My Lord is Merciful, Loving.?
1191 They said ?O Shu?ayb, we do not understand most of what you say, and we see you as (-2) weak among us; and if it were not for who your family is, we would have stoned you, and you would not be proud against us.?
1192 He said ?My people, is who my family is more important to you than God, while you have cast Him away behind your backs? My Lord is encompassing what you do.?
1193 ?And my people, (-2) continue to act as you do, and I will act. You will then come to know to whom the retribution will come to humiliate him and who is the liar. Watch then, and I will watch with you.?
1194 And when Our command came, We saved Shu?ayb and those who believed with him by a mercy from Us; and the scream took those who had wronged, thus they became lifeless in their homes.
1195 It is as if they had never lived there. Away with Midyan as it was away with Thamud.

In 1187 it is clear that the 'salah' is communication/bonding with God with the possibility to have like a "data uplink" to God. I continue to refer to it by the English word Communion. Communion channels inspiration to the user who performs it constantly and with great devotion, but it should always be regarded as a kind of direct communication to the Lord. Shu'ayb's people asked if God channeled inspiration to him that they should abandon their idols. This seems to quite clearly put the basis of a Communion (salat) to have a pretty straight-forward meaning and non so complicated, and especially not just ramblings of words in a series like in a recurring monotone ritual. It has an immediate meaning when you perform Communion (as-salat).

1188 It shows that Shu'ayb must not to have been perfect but also sinning at times which he admits. Some people claim that Messengers are free from sin or error, but this is not the case; not with Muhammad nor this nor other ones.

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11110 And We gave Moses the Message, yet they disputed in it; and had it not been for a word which was already given by your Lord, their case would have been judged immediately. They are in grave doubt concerning it.
11111 And to each your Lord will recompense their works. He is expert in what they do.

Blue We are all different communities. And we will all the held responsible for our deeds. God seems to differentiate between all these people and He did not intend that we play Muhammad & Co copycats 1400 years later but advocate belief in the One and do good by advocating justice and preventing evil. Communion is simply communication to the Lord although one may choose to kneel or prostrate on own volition towards the Master. With The Book you have a great guide, but remember that God's pen does never run dry but has an endless supply.

11114 And hold the Communion at two parts of the day, and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

11118 And if your Lord had wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would have continued to disagree.

Red This is true, even if we were not "Quranist", "hadith-rejectors", Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims or name whatever you like; we would still argue about things and fantasize in conjecture and complicating things.

11121 And say to those who do not believe ?Continue to do what you will, we will also do.?
11122 ?And wait, for we are also waiting.?

Could be the easiest was to dismiss instead of painfully arguing with someone who does only argue for the sake of proving someone wrong instead of humbly trying to contemplate what they are saying. I may use this advice.

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Happy new 2014 everyone!

God bless you!

[diamantinehoneybunch]

Peace Man of Faith,

Sorry if you think I am just intruding here but I'd like to say thanks for this wonderful thread. To be honest I have never read the contents in this thread even though I have noticed the title of this thread but since a few weeks ago I think I am interested to learn from this thread D

May God bless you pr