Does doubt count as Kufr?

Red_Eyes

Hi,

From what I understand, Kufr refers the covering of the truth whether you are doing to it other (such as lying about God) or to yourself (by denying it). That is what I believe.

However where does doubt fit into this? doubt hits a lot of peoples minds when they are unsure if the truth is correct but aren't outright denying it either.

So my question is, does doubt fit under kufr?

Thanks

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

No, I think it is a natural process to doubt things. It has nothing to do with 'Kufr'. If you doubt then I think you are at least trying. I have doubted God before I was blessed with Nearness and Guidance. Now I have no doubt, although I cannot decide for God I feel like a Believer now (Momeen).

You can be a muslim and still doubt God, as long as you practice the underlying concept behind islam (peacemaking). But you should work towards belief, trusting that God is there somewhere and as long as you work righteousness God ought to bless you with His Nearness and Guidance sooner or later. He will surely show you that He is with you.

God bless you

unknownuser

Peace

You mean you reference is from this verse, Red_Eyes?

223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

2147 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.

In the Quran there is no reference if the doubtful is a kafir.Doubt means we still confused about what we must choose, the example is you choose to became teacher or doctor, but you still doubtful, this means you never labeled as teacher nor doctor.

It's same you choose ayman or kafir, but you still doubtful, so you never labeled as kufr nor ayman.

If you look in the Quran again, the meaning of kufr is the people who set partner beside Allah (shirk), believe on previous Kitab (Kafir Alkitab), or just claim if themself believer but actually not (munafiqun)

Red_Eyes

Hello,

Well what I mean is that a believer might have doubts once in a while and think that it might not be true but quickly mends it to get rid of the doubt. Basically doubt going in and out for a believer. While yes I guess talking about doubt in a bigger case where one is in full doubt is good to discuss too.

What do you guys think? and as I stated above a "believer" who may have doubts at time. You guys are saying it's not kufr, can I ask the reason for your answers? and is that person still a believer?

TruthBehindIt

Use your Brain in Deen.....!

A sincere seeker is a doubter. He does not rest until all his
questions are answered.
How can you claim sincerity when you give up questioning and believe in absurdities? This is recklessness, not sincerity.

?If God did not want us to use our brain?, asked Galileo, ?why He would give it to us??

Logic is the measure of what is right and what is wrong, not the bogus claims of Shirk doer Ulama Karam and impostors who want us to have faith and not question them.

A true God would not expect us to believe in anything unless the clear proof is given.

mmkhan

Hello Red_Eyes,

As per 676-78 Ibrahim saw a star and said, this is my Lord, and then he got a doubt that it cannot be. Then he saw moon and said, this is my Lord, and again he got a doubt that it cannot be. Then he saw sun and said, this is my Lord. If he think we cannot doubt even about our Lord, then he would have end up making a new Lord.

Hope this may help you inshaAllah.

May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan

justamuslim

Doubts can lead to belief or the opposite.

I had my doubts and troubles with hadiths which lead me to the truth. Same with hijab, salat, Saum and many other things.

Time to time, yes I wonder about God much like the angels did in sura 2. And God really exist type of questions and is there really life hereafter questions? Invariably, my understanding deepens.

Having doubts have not lead me to conclude that there is no God and in disbelief. It has been the opposite. And I suspect that I probably will die doubting about a lot of things.

Others here can provide references from the Koran to answer your question. Don't know if this is what you were asking. I can only speak from my personal experience which is i would say no, doubting is not kufr.

Jafar

From what I understand, Kufr refers the covering of the truth whether you are doing to it other (such as lying about God) or to yourself (by denying it). That is what I believe.

Correct

However where does doubt fit into this? doubt hits a lot of peoples minds when they are unsure if the truth is correct but aren't outright denying it either.

So my question is, does doubt fit under kufr?

Doubt got nothing to do with it.

Kufr is the result of a 'bad character', a simple example
"You cheated during your exams, a guy sitting next to you report you for cheating, you know very well that you did cheat during your exam, but to save your skin you try many things to cover it, ranging from blatant refusal (lying) up to killing or torturing the witness who saw your action of cheating".

Another example
"You're a politician and you took bribes, a guy report you for bribery/corruption, you know very well that you did took bribe, but to save your skin you try many things to cover / hides it, ranging from blatant refusal (lying) up to killing or torturing the witness who saw your action of taking bribe".

Another example
"You're a priest and you enjoy power, wealth and respect because your society consider you as 'the ultimate agent' to a specific deity, a guy came forward and expose the lies of your myth, the ridiculousness of your deity thus the ridiculousness of your statement/dogma/teachings. You tried to debate him but the more you debate with him the more you see that he's right, and worse.. it seems your society started to think that this guy is right and you're wrong. To protect your own power, wealth and respect you tried to 'silence him' with myriad of methods, starting from 'attacking the character' (thus not the subject itself being debated), threatening him, arrest him, torturing him and eventually when all else fails, you shall try to kill him"

That's the general characteristic of "The Kufrs", generally they're the same from times of Abraham up until now.

Salam / Peace

Red_Eyes

Correct

Doubt got nothing to do with it.

Kufr is the result of a 'bad character', a simple example
"You cheated during your exams, a guy sitting next to you report you for cheating, you know very well that you did cheat during your exam, but to save your skin you try many things to cover it, ranging from blatant refusal (lying) up to killing or torturing the witness who saw your action of cheating".

Another example
"You're a politician and you took bribes, a guy report you for bribery/corruption, you know very well that you did took bribe, but to save your skin you try many things to cover / hides it, ranging from blatant refusal (lying) up to killing or torturing the witness who saw your action of taking bribe".

Another example
"You're a priest and you enjoy power, wealth and respect because your society consider you as 'the ultimate agent' to a specific deity, a guy came forward and expose the lies of your myth, the ridiculousness of your deity thus the ridiculousness of your statement/dogma/teachings. You tried to debate him but the more you debate with him the more you see that he's right, and worse.. it seems your society started to think that this guy is right and you're wrong. To protect your own power, wealth and respect you tried to 'silence him' with myriad of methods, starting from 'attacking the character' (thus not the subject itself being debated), threatening him, arrest him, torturing him and eventually when all else fails, you shall try to kill him"

That's the general characteristic of "The Kufrs", generally they're the same from times of Abraham up until now.

Salam / Peace

Er... the first two you stated, I don't see as the meaning of kufr I undersatand as when I said "cover the truth" I meant as in the truth from Allah, not cheating on a math test and then lying that you didn't cheat, granted in your example there the murderer is still guilty for murder. However as far as i've seen in the Quran, kufr refers to cover the truth from Allah such as the Quran. However your third point fits the definition of kufr.

Jafar

Er... the first two you stated, I don't see as the meaning of kufr I undersatand as when I said "cover the truth" I meant as in the truth from Allah,

There I don't agree with you, if it's "Covering the truth/Cover up" (Kufr) then it's "Covering the truth/Cover up".

If you compare the first example and the third example, the MOTIVE is pretty much the same.

To "Protect / Save self-interest"

That's why "The Kufr" is actually serving "Their own EGO".

In the universe, God has a mechanism to bring forward 'truth', one way or another...
Thus it will only a matter of time when 'truth' will prevails.. despite any action "The Kufr" shall take to cover it.

The 'exam cheater' will lose (1st example) and the 'corrupt politician' (2nd example) will be exposed.. it just a matter of time.

Feel free to study human history for the abundant evidence.

This is inline with God's universal law of "Everyone shall get what they deserve"..

Salam / Peace

savage_carrot

There I don't agree with you, if it's "Covering the truth/Cover up" (Kufr) then it's "Covering the truth/Cover up".

If you compare the first example and the third example, the MOTIVE is pretty much the same.

To "Protect / Save self-interest"

That's why "The Kufr" is actually serving "Their own EGO".

In the universe, God has a mechanism to bring forward 'truth', one way or another...
Thus it will only a matter of time when 'truth' will prevails.. despite any action "The Kufr" shall take to cover it.

The 'exam cheater' will lose (1st example) and the 'corrupt politician' (2nd example) will be exposed.. it just a matter of time.

Feel free to study human history for the abundant evidence.

This is inline with God's universal law of "Everyone shall get what they deserve"..

Salam / Peace

I actually agree with this. It's also inline with it being an active act for lack of better words rather than a passive thing also different from that which someone could do unknowingly/accidentally.

peace

Red_Eyes

There I don't agree with you, if it's "Covering the truth/Cover up" (Kufr) then it's "Covering the truth/Cover up".

If you compare the first example and the third example, the MOTIVE is pretty much the same.

To "Protect / Save self-interest"

That's why "The Kufr" is actually serving "Their own EGO".

In the universe, God has a mechanism to bring forward 'truth', one way or another...
Thus it will only a matter of time when 'truth' will prevails.. despite any action "The Kufr" shall take to cover it.

The 'exam cheater' will lose (1st example) and the 'corrupt politician' (2nd example) will be exposed.. it just a matter of time.

Feel free to study human history for the abundant evidence.

This is inline with God's universal law of "Everyone shall get what they deserve"..

Salam / Peace

By that logic a 12 year old kid who cheats on his math test and lies about it is a kaffir. I haven't seen a single example in the Quran as far as I know that points to this. All the examples point to covering the truth from Allah such as where they lie about Allah or try to kill off those who are trying to spread the message of Allah in order to cover the truth. All the examples of a kaffir in the Quran are those who are trying to cover the truth about Allah as far as i'm aware.

I mean seriously look at this logic. You are comparing a person who cheats and lies on a exam to one who is about to cover the truth about Allah and thus lead themselves and/or others to the fire by making them/themselves the message from Allah. That's like comparing to the sky and the ground in how different the ethics are here.

savage_carrot

peace red_eyes,

You can read asad's commentary on kufr online if you search for it

This meaning is easily grasped when we bear in mind that the root verb of the participial noun kafir (and of the infinitive noun kufr) is kafara, "he (or "it&quot covered (a thing)" thus, in Quran 5720 the tiller of the soil is called (without any pejorative implication) kafir, "one who covers", i.e., the sown seed with earth, just as the night is spoken of as having "covered" (kafara) the earth with darkness. In their abstract sense, both the verb and the nouns derived from it have a connotation of "concealing" something that exists or "denying" something that is true. Hence, in the usage of the Quran - with the exception of the one instance (Quran 5720) where this participial noun signifies a "tiller of the soil" - a kafir is one who denies (or "refuses to acknowledge&quot the truth" in the widest, spiritual sense of this latter term that is, irrespective of whether it relates to a cognition of the supreme truth - namely, the existence of God - or to a doctrine or ordinance enunciated in the divine writ, or to a self-evident moral proposition, or to an acknowledgment of, and therefore gratitude for, favors received.

Think it's about more than a label in a sense, it's a state of mind...something that you do actively which leads and/or keeps you there, like a chain of choices that might consecutively lead deeper into that state. One can always break out of it if they choose to, the further in you are...the harder it would be I think. Allah is everywhere, so are His signs...quranic morality with the consequences of our actions are hard coded in this world in a way. The reason why anarchy for example won't be the order of the day, it goes against law and order which humans need to thrive. We don't choose to self destruct, we choose survival. God's way leads to survival in the most beneficial way here and later. If we keep cheating for example, it would lead to a particular mindset which would be detrimental to our spiritual/otherwise growth. Can we truly say we are believers then, rejecting one part of the morality God deems to be righteous, even if we claim to believe in God? Belief in God which is inclusive of believing in what He deems righteous is a part of it. Not covering the truth in any way, shape or form would also be part of being righteous.

I get that one can make mistakes and so on, one can't really equate it to disbelieving in God as a whole. But if someone keeps making those mistakes, maybe even others without re-evaluating them as a bad idea and trying to change themselves, it would probably add up to a mindset in which it's easier to just keep going on a certain path that is further away from God. Can it then claim to believe in God as it has rejected righteousness in a way? Why would God solely ask for belief without righteous actions? Belief in God would thus encompass a particular mindset that does not reject righteousness inclusive of not denying or covering the truth which can be beyond someone simply saying I believe God exists and can't/won't back it up with their actions or majority of.

Doubt can be reluctance to commit due to various reasons. As long as one is sincere in working out their doubts however, they should reach a conclusion eventually. We usually understand doubt as being a state where we are genuinely puzzled or unclear. Not sure then, how one could equate it to a concept like kufr which is more of an active process of doing something after we know. A refusal to acknowledge or deny means we have been presented with the truth at some point. Being doubtful about said truth is understandable, it's what we do after we decide either way. Kufr would be on one end, belief on the other and doubt in the middle. Can we stay in doubt all our life? Maybe, but it would be different than being a kafir all their life Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

supportpeacenotwar

By that logic a 12 year old kid who cheats on his math test and lies about it is a kaffir. I haven't seen a single example in the Quran as far as I know that points to this. All the examples point to covering the truth from Allah such as where they lie about Allah or try to kill off those who are trying to spread the message of Allah in order to cover the truth. All the examples of a kaffir in the Quran are those who are trying to cover the truth about Allah as far as i'm aware.

I mean seriously look at this logic. You are comparing a person who cheats and lies on a exam to one who is about to cover the truth about Allah and thus lead themselves and/or others to the fire by making them/themselves the message from Allah. That's like comparing to the sky and the ground in how different the ethics are here.

Peace Red_Eyes,

I would also say that Kafir specifically refers to the message or direction from Allah swt. One example of a kafir is Iblis. He is called a kafir, and he knows the truth. He rejects it and turns to racism, hatred of a specific group - humanity - and favouring his own jinn. I view kafir as a term specifically used in the Quran for a group of people who choose denial of clear truth, evidence or the direction Allah swt provides. Just like there are further categories or terms we can use for behaviour such as hypocrite or fornicator. These terms I believe have a specific context and so we do need to apply them in the way that the Quran suggests. I would have to look into this in further detail if only for myself to confirm. Terms such as evildoer, wrongdoing etc may apply in cases where there is specific bad behaviour. But someone might not be a kafir because redemption is possible. So again the example of Iblis is that he does not choose to redeem himself. He wants to do want he knows is clearly counter to what Allah swt has stated. The same with Surah Kafiroon in terms of how we address people who are clearly dead set against Allah's Sunnah. This is a very interesting topic, btw.

Red_Eyes

Peace Savage_Carrot,

The problem is that you guys have really widened the meaning of kufr when the Quran has only talked about it when it comes down to covering the truth about Allah as far as I know

"Who then is more wicked than one who lies about God, and denies the truth when it comes to him? Is there not in Hell an abode for the rejecters? (3932)

"His friend said to him while discussing with him "Have you disbelieved in the One who created you from dirt, then from a seed, then He evolved you into a man?" (1837)

"We did not create the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them except with truth, and for an appointed time. And those who disbelieve turn away from what they are being warned with." (463)

"Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah the son of Mary." Say "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on Earth!" And to God is the sovereignty of heavens and Earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things." (517)

"Those to whom We have given the Scripture, they recite it as it truthfully deserves to be recited; they believe in it. As for those who disbelieve in it, they are the losers." (2121)

"And they serve besides God what does not benefit them nor harm them. And the rejecter is always set-against his Lord." (2555)

"And from among the people of the Scripture are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said "We have no obligation towards the Gentiles." They say about God lies while knowing." (375)

"And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God's revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together." (4140)

"And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the Scripture so that you may think it is from the Scripture, while it is not from the Scripture, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know." (37

"And from the camels two, and from the cattle two. Say "Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when God ordered you with this?" Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God to misguide the people without knowledge. God does not guide the wicked people." (6144)

"Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record; so that when Our messengers come to terminate their lives, they will say "Where are those whom you used to call on besides God?" they said "They have abandoned us!" and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters." (737)

"Who then is more wicked than one who lies about God, and denies the truth when it comes to him? Is there not in Hell an abode for the rejecters?" (3932)

From what I understand these verses all point to how kufr refers to covering the truth about Allah. Some of these examples include false religious teaching that made up rules and say it was from Allah, disbelieving in Allah, change the meaning of verses, telling lies about Allah. I have not seen an example as far as i've seen that refers to anything that isn't related to covering the truth about Allah. I haven't seen any evidence in the Quran as far as i've seen that points to Kufr having a wider meaning.

Someone lying that they didn't cheat in a math test while they did? I don't see them referring to Allah at all here, let alone any sort of religious reference whatsoever. They are lying about their actions instead without any reference to Allah. The Quran as far as i've seen refers to kufr in regards to covering the truth about Allah.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

It is true that most, if not all, of the uses of kufr in Quran refers to those who reject the Truth due to their pride and arrogance. If you ask me, it can be both knowingly and unknowingly. These people may not know they are astray. They follow man-made conjecture and they often invent new ideas which they make into law despite the fact God's system is already in place.

They can be connected with hypocrisy and believing you are guided while they are not. If you ask any Sunni muslim they will claim they are guided and they will become aggressive why you asked. That they disobey God on an endless range of points is something they would be completely denying. They also humiliate God saying that His Book is incomplete and needing additional man-made hadith to complement it. It is as if God forgot to add details, but these details never existed because is was all conjecture. The intelligent will see they only humiliated themselves and God curses them for their blasphemies.

I am sure there are lots of hypocrites from all branches of religion and even among the Quran alone followers. Many Quran alone followers seem to often abrogate practices from Quran as if they never existed or contained different elements or that Muhammad (or whatever his true name was) did not exist. The criticism from Sunni directions is not always unfounded, even if they throw stones in glass houses. Even a fool can come up with useful remarks. Of course there are erroneous interpretations of the Quran, but we have to be careful with what discoveries we make and change in the name of God.

Quran talks about believing you are guided while you are not being a punishment from God, or even a curse. Only God can remove this curse on someone, be it through a blessed man, but God is always the doer.

We cause tbe stray-walking ourselves, by following our own wishful thinking and not focusing hard on seeking God's Nearness and Guidance. It will become treat for our minds and senses and the invented religion will become comfortable and due to our social nature we will base a community of stray beings who only worsens the disease as when you have support for your beliefs and then you will work even harder to delude yourself if you are not guided.

The word kafir is emotionally loaded and I have received hate mails because I have used it on our forum to compare traditional muslims by its English definition 'to cover the Truth'. It is a word that has been misused since the advent of Quran. Without using the word previously in my post, I defined a kafir above. They can be knowing what they do, but they are most often unaware of what they do and tbey stubbornness is clouding their judgment so they cannot see the Truth even when it is in front of their eyes. The Quran goes on a very basic level to explain how things are, but the Faith in external sources runs so deep the traditional understanding is the obvious explanation for it no matter how much it contradicts the entire Message of Quran.

God bless you

savage_carrot