Traditional Ramadan?
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Actually, the issue is the location of the fasting period in the year, not really how long the fasting is or what to abstain from.
Circadian rhythms might be a possibility to consider. One could therefore link fasting to the wake/sleep cycle as is in places where we tend to substitute/emulate day/night. I wouldn't consider an overall 12 hour division to be contrary if there is no natural pattern to adjust to or if it causes undue location based hardship. Or if sticking to the letter, people living in extreme locations would consider themselves exempt and feed the hungry since the day/night cycle is heavily skewed. I personally don't see why fasting can't be adjusted to match all locations based on reasoning, unless one thinks that believers only inhabit a particular geographical location.peace
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peace bro Zulf,
... this instruction doesn't work all over the planet at certain times of the year. Again, the quranic instruction doesn't match the natural world. How can this be!? Something must be wrong, and that thing is always our understanding. If the quran is such an amazing source of knowledge, exact and precise, then its instructions should be followable at all times and places. Right? So what's wrong? Well, I don't know.
2185 says "...whoever witnessed among you the shahr so/then he should abstain it..."
What happens if you do not witness the shahr?
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peace Timur,
My approach is one should do what they consider correct at the time, whilst always increasing their knowledge, and apply as you go.
Thus, if one has an idea what "shahr" is, e.g. some sort of timing-indicator, but not sure when in the year, then one could undergo abstinence whenever in the year, or spread it out throughout the year etc.
If a person literally has no clue what "shahr" is or could be, then they do not have to abstain etc. This is my view.
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peace Timur,
My approach is one should do what they consider correct at the time, whilst always increasing their knowledge, and apply as you go.
Thus, if one has an idea what "shahr" is, e.g. some sort of timing-indicator, but not sure when in the year, then one could undergo abstinence whenever in the year, or spread it out throughout the year etc.
If a person literally has no clue what "shahr" is or could be, then they do not have to abstain etc. This is my view.
Sounds very sensible. This way we will not indulge in blind faith and not lock ourselves up in a fixed understanding which will be hard to break out from later. This way we remain responsible for ourselves and are always open to increased understanding by taking small steps ahead whenever ready. A very natural approach. By accepting that our (and other's) understanding is not perfect, it will be easier to avoid getting stuck in any wrong whole-sale understanding that we may come across.
Peace
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Yes, thats my state of knowledge, too. So if we are honestly unsure about the actual meaning of "al-shahr", how can we witness it? It's impossible. Consequently we are not obliged to fast, right?
Thus, if one has an idea what "shahr" is, e.g. some sort of timing-indicator, but not sure when in the year, then one could undergo abstinence whenever in the year, or spread it out throughout the year etc.
I actually get boring, for researching the word shahr in Quran, because the result is the same "shahru Ramadhan/month of Ramadhan (written in 2185).
Because of this I still depending on jumhur ulama's hisab based on hijr calender.If a person literally has no clue what "shahr" is or could be, then they do not have to abstain etc. This is my view.
So this mean, if we still confused about this, then sawm is not wajib.
Woow you create a brilliant fatwa Wakas, perhaps too brilliant o -
peace Earthdom,
So this mean, if we still confused about this, then sawm is not wajib.
Woow you create a brilliant fatwa Wakas, perhaps too brilliant oLet's test...
Earthdom, when you read this post I would like you to do a fijaumterfuts.
Please reply and let me know if you did a fijaumterfuts or not. If you say no are unsure if you did or not, I am very confident you will cite the reason you did not do it because you do not know what fijaumterfuts is.
So, consider, if one literally has no idea what something is, how can one do it?
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Peace.
From my perspective, the cycle is happening, God?s Law doesn?t change. Once upon a time there was a community of submitters. They believe in Allah and Quran alone. They strive to practice the way of Allah by referring to His guidance, the Quran. Every week, they discuss a topic pertaining to a Quranic concept. Someone will do a research and present the idea. Everyone chip in.
One of the topics is sawm. It is happening here now in Freeminds.What I can share from my viewpoint regarding this immutable law of the God
One, we strive to understand the meaning of the phenomenon. Two, we see things differently. Three, we differ in our approach and practice. Four, we listened to all views, and we choose which is best. Five, we personally do our own research by reading and studying the ayats in the Quran and observing and relating them with the ayats of nature. Six, we encounter the traditionalists, including our family and experience how they react to you. Seven, we formulate our own reflections/lessons from this practice. Eight, we face the challenge/hardship. Nine, we do it/don?t do it with an intention/reason. Ten, we discover the benefits. Eleven, we feel something or we don?t feel anything. Twelve,.............I can go on and on. Everyone has his/her personal adventure of sawm or anything pertaining to the Quran. From my observation, some are happy, some are sad, some are confused, some lost, some give up and so on and so forth.
Why am I telling you this? I just want to say, each and every one of us is paving our own way to Allah, in our struggle to be in His straight path, by following His guidance. We design our state of affairs. It is a never ending mission till we die. Everyone is coloring his/her own record with his/her personal understanding, belief, intention, emotion and action. So, be humble, kind and respect a fellow believer's views.
548 And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
7910 They say (now) "What! shall we indeed be returned to (our) former state?
Zone.
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So, consider, if one literally has no idea what something is, how can one do it?
Peace Wakas.
Unfortunately my result of tafseer Quran is different from you.I try to intepretate sawm in the Quran but the result is always same like traditionalist one.Ahh, I'm confused, I have little time for study Quran and now I hold two fatwas, the first one is Mr Ayman's and the second is Indonesian ulama's.
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Peace.
From my perspective, the cycle is happening, God?s Law doesn?t change. Once upon a time there was a community of submitters. They believe in Allah and Quran alone. They strive to practice the way of Allah by referring to His guidance, the Quran. Every week, they discuss a topic pertaining to a Quranic concept. Someone will do a research and present the idea. Everyone chip in.
One of the topics is sawm. It is happening here now in Freeminds.What I can share from my viewpoint regarding this immutable law of the God
One, we strive to understand the meaning of the phenomenon. Two, we see things differently. Three, we differ in our approach and practice. Four, we listened to all views, and we choose which is best. Five, we personally do our own research by reading and studying the ayats in the Quran and observing and relating them with the ayats of nature. Six, we encounter the traditionalists, including our family and experience how they react to you. Seven, we formulate our own reflections/lessons from this practice. Eight, we face the challenge/hardship. Nine, we do it/don?t do it with an intention/reason. Ten, we discover the benefits. Eleven, we feel something or we don?t feel anything. Twelve,.............I can go on and on. Everyone has his/her personal adventure of sawm or anything pertaining to the Quran. From my observation, some are happy, some are sad, some are confused, some lost, some give up and so on and so forth.
Why am I telling you this? I just want to say, each and every one of us is paving our own way to Allah, in our struggle to be in His straight path, by following His guidance. We design our state of affairs. It is a never ending mission till we die. Everyone is coloring his/her own record with his/her personal understanding, belief, intention, emotion and action. So, be humble, kind and respect a fellow believer's views.
548 And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation, but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
7910 They say (now) "What! shall we indeed be returned to (our) former state?
Zone.
Thank you for your tausiyah, brother zone handshake.I'm also enjoy your another tausiyah post in another thread.I like it.
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peace Earthdom,
Peace Wakas.
Unfortunately my result of tafseer Quran is different from you.I try to intepretate sawm in the Quran but the result is always same like traditionalist one.Ahh, I'm confused, I have little time for study Quran and now I hold two fatwas, the first one is Mr Ayman's and the second is Indonesian ulama's.
My understanding of "sawm" is the same as the Traditional one. I prefer the word "abstinence" hence I use it, but "fast" is similar.
In any case, my point was you could not do a fijaumterfuts because you did not know what it was. Similarly, if a person had no idea* what shahr is then it is up to them what they do, and in my view, one would not need to abstain/fast.
*as in literally no idea, zero understanding etc.
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peace all,
Here is some more evidence to consider, someone else made this point, quote
The night is DEFINED in the Quran as the period from sunset to sunrise, thus fasting ends as soon as the sun has set. Quranic words in Sura 91 provides conclusive proof as to the timing of the ?Nahar? (day) and the ?Layl? (night). The following words speak about the sun
By the sun and its brightness.
And the moon that follows it.
And the "nahar" (day) that reveals it.
And the "layl" (night) that covers it.These simple words give us an absolute definition of night and day, whenever the sun is revealed (i.e. it can be seen) it is ?day? (913), and whenever the sun is covered (it cannot be seen) it is night (914).
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Peace all
And We appoint the night and the day two signs. Then We make erased /obscure the sign of the night, and We make the sign of the day VISIBLE, that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the computation of the years, and the reckoning; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding. 11114Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful 1712
The sign of the day is VISIBILITY and at sunset there is 100% visibility
The two prayers Fajr anf Eisha are offered at the TWO ENDS OF THE DAY. Night has no ends. Therefore the later part of the TWILIGHT can be considered as the start of the night when the visibility is nearly zero.
Therefore (O Muhammad) bear with what they say, and hymn the praise of thy Lord before the rising and before the setting of the sun 5039
If Allah had had intended the fast to be concluded at sunset then the proper and correct words would have been GHURUB ASH SHAMS.
In my opinion the time of ending the abstinence depends upon how you understand the concept of night. If you think that night starts after sunset, it is ok and if you think that night means invisibility and is the later part of the twilight that is also OK. For Allah it does not make a difference because the essence of abstinence is to achieve TAQWA which is to be conscious of God and our surrounding, but unfortunately the whole concentration of the mass Muslims during this month is centered upon the delicious food at Iftar, the fabricated TARAWIH and the celebration of Eid. It is useless to take a pain killer tablet when it does not give you the desired result similarly if the results of abstinence is zero then it is a futile exercise.
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Peace all
And We appoint the night and the day two signs. Then We make erased /obscure the sign of the night, and We make the sign of the day VISIBLE, that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the computation of the years, and the reckoning; and everything have We expounded with a clear expounding. 11114Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful 1712
The sign of the day is VISIBILITY and at sunset there is 100% visibility
1712 and made we the night and the daytime two signs so erased we sign the night and made we sign the daytime visible that may seek yeh bounty from lord yours and know yeh number the seasons and the account/calculation and every thing explained/decided we it detailed
Peace kazi, it's not about % visibility of things which at times are visible in middle of the night e.g. during full moon, rather visibility of the sun (feminine noun) which clear definition is given as pointed out by Wakas earlier...
911 and the sun and brightness hers/its
912 and the moon when follows her/it
913 and the daytime when displays her/it
914 and the night when covers her/itTherefore definition according to Qur'an
A. If the sun is visible (white thread/first light) is daytime
B. If the sun is not visible (exactly at sunset) is nighttime -
peace hk,
I agree with
If you think that night starts after sunset, it is ok and if you think that night means invisibility and is the later part of the twilight that is also OK. For Allah it does not make a difference because the essence of abstinence is to achieve TAQWA which is to be conscious of God...
But what I would add is that "ghurub" is not a precise marker, as it simply means setting (it doesn't tell us what point in setting). This can be seen from the word "maghrib" as I said earlier, quote
Quote
"Then, when he came to the sunset / setting of the sun (maghrib al-shams / س, he found it setting....We can clearly see from above "maghrib al-shams" the sun is setting, not set.
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Peace wakas
Thanks for clarifying the the difference between setting and set .
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peace Earthdom,
My understanding of "sawm" is the same as the Traditional one. I prefer the word "abstinence" hence I use it, but "fast" is similar.
In any case, my point was you could not do a fijaumterfuts because you did not know what it was. Similarly, if a person had no idea* what shahr is then it is up to them what they do, and in my view, one would not need to abstain/fast.
*as in literally no idea, zero understanding etc.
I think you need to word it as When you witness the fijaumterfuts, then begin the abstinence.
The fijaumterfuts is not the action that needs done, it is the abstinence. Fijaumterfuts is just when to do it. If someone asks you to do something but you dont understand when, you can still do it.
But i understand the point you are trying to make.
Btw about 3637 , is it possible the 'from it' is refering to night, in the sense that it is a component of a yawm/day?
or what if the verse just says " a sign for them is the night. We remove the day, thereupon they are in darkness"
Would this mean i have to remove to get the above meaning?
I must sound nuts to you p its just hard to wrap my mind around this. It reminds me of 1984 by George Orwell when winston was being programmed and tortured into believing four fingers held up was five.
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Peace,
As per my understanding, the best definition of the word Layl is in 3637.
3637
3637 And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it day, so they are in darkness.It is so clear and simple to understand and it also supports 1712.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan
