Children of Israel, Pharaoh and Egypt

supportpeacenotwar

highlight above is from me.

2132,

And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons and so did Jacob; "O my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the state of being Muslims."

2133,

Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons "What will ye worship after me?" They said "We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathersof Abraham, Isma`il, and Isaac,the one and only God, and onto Him we submit ourselves."

Also, chapter 12 of The Qur?aan in its entirety is essential in learning about the children of Israel, their origins, and their migration to MISR/Egypt.

Peace,
Khalil

Peace brother,

Appreciate your input. I meant more the people at the time who were considered Children of Israel who did not live through Jacob's lifetime. Interestingly though, I'm not sure the Quran mentions a scripture given to Jacob which would be a 'verification of those past Signs' - albeit the message could still have experienced corruption like the Torah, Gospel. Although, that doesn't mean he wasn't given one or whether the living conditions of the children of Israel and other workers would have allowed for much religious discourse that studying a scripture would entail.

huruf

Reading back Pazuzu's thread and book I have come to another dog that didn't bark and which is plain indicative that there is no Egypt at all in Musa's story, if there was any doubt left, which for me there was not

{And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people O my people, do I not possess the kingship of ?Misr?, and these rivers that flow under me? Do you not see?}?

?What is this? A great farao, who was if not the most powerful, one of the most powerful rulers of the most powerful states of the world with a territory beyond grasp for most peopla at that time of thousands of kilometers of extension, with whole armies, legions of burocrats, ashtonishing and enormous temples, institutions and yes ENORMOUS and ashtounding pyramids, a gigantic agriculture, fishing and shipping, and what does he boast of some rivers under his palace. ?What just one palace? Pitiful. And a simple man heading a mere gang, as he says, Manages to get to his presence and not to the presence of a middle level public employee who would have dispatched him just like that. What kind of mighty king is that?

Seriously in an extremely and populated kingdom like old Egypt would ever a wretch, as fir3awn diescribes him, ever get to be reeived by the King, the might pharao, would he ever get past the quantity of public employees would would deal with him adequately and assure him that his message owuld be faithfully transmitted to the king? Just to hink of it is preposterous. What, somebody who is coming to teach him a new religion? To the pharaoh?

And the pharaoh would feel cornered to defend himself saying that there are rivers under his palace... and that for that reason... whatever.

He doesn't even say that through his enourmous domains flows the mightyriver, bringer of life and riches, the magnificent Nile.

It does makes sense if he is merely the lord of a misr, an enclave or small domain, which by size allows him to keep track of every happening our of the ordinary in his territory, not, for God's sake, the king of Egypt.

Salaam

supportpeacenotwar

Peace huruf,

I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm remaining open minded about as I look into it more. One thing though about Moses going to Pharaoh was that he was already within the family of Pharaoh before - a possible hint that the two ethnicities were not so hugely different in looks etc if he could be brought up and raised as one of another 'tribe' or 'group'. So, from the other perspective, we could say it was easier for someone like Moses to go in front of Pharaoh? I'm not saying that means its Egypt, but its just part of the story. That he doesn't mention the Nile though - that's a good point, either the Quran wants to leave it open ended if it is Egypt or it's not Egypt.

Thanks for your help.

herbman

Salam and peace,
here are my thoughts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599235.0

to summarise I think all the stories come from the region of Mesopotamia, cradle of humanity.
This region could cover from Irak, Jordania, North Arabia, what is called the fertile crescent.

Peace

supportpeacenotwar

Peace herbman,

I greatly appreciate the link and its looks very interesting.

I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...

I'll go through it in more detail later but I particularly liked this post you made. That's an important part of the message I believe. We can try to place the story in a location if we want but the core of the message and lessons remain the same.

huruf

Peace huruf,

I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm remaining open minded about as I look into it more. One thing though about Moses going to Pharaoh was that he was already within the family of Pharaoh before - a possible hint that the two ethnicities were not so hugely different in looks etc if he could be brought up and raised as one of another 'tribe' or 'group'. So, from the other perspective, we could say it was easier for someone like Moses to go in front of Pharaoh? I'm not saying that means its Egypt, but its just part of the story. That he doesn't mention the Nile though - that's a good point, either the Quran wants to leave it open ended if it is Egypt or it's not Egypt.

Thanks for your help.

Fir3awn is boasting, which obviously he loved to do. If he really was the ruler of Egypt he would not boast like that, however he might know Musa. With a country like Egypt you certainly you can boast far, far higher than what he did. Also if he was the ruler of Egypt even if he knew Musa, it would not be likely that he would entertain with him such kind of interview being what he was. But it might be thinkable if he was just a lesser tribal or city ruler.

Salaam

unknownuser

I personnaly think that in the Reading God is intentionnaly vague on geographical location and these stories are but (real) examples for humanity, these stories can be translocated anywhere on earth where any king/governor could oppress people for their origin/religion e.g. Hitler and nazism in Germany, Appartheid in South Africa, Arabs in Palestine etc...

There is no intentional "vagueness" on the part of the Quran. The problem is with the understanding of the future generations. The audience of the Quran (Muhammad and his people) knew exactly where the theater of the events was. And I still maintain, to this day, that the names Misr, Badr, Yathrib, Midyan, al-Ahqaf, Bakkah, and Tur Seena are actual places, not symbols in a vacuum.

However, I do agree with you that the message of those stories may very well be translocated as examples all over the world. The Pharaohs, Hamans, and Qaroons exist all around us today, and have succeeded in dumbing down and enslaving humanity all across the globe, with their corrupt system of politics-religion-finance and "magic" (trickery) of their deceitful media. So, yes, we can understand the Quranic message even if we do not care to know where the events took place.

The importance of discovering the theater of the events serves other purposes

1- Determine where and when the Quran was revealed, and who was Muhammad? (I think we have the right to now this).
2- Expose the crimes of the hijackers and counterfeiters of history.
3- Expose a fraudulent methodology in dealing with the signs of the Quran, and how the Muslims resort to their "acrobatics", as they twist and distort the meanings of the passages to make them fit with pre-established creeds.
4- Expose the racial and ideological interpretations of those who use the religious texts to impose their imperialist ideas.

If I didn't think these reasons were important, I would not have gone through the trouble of compiling these books, and dedicating 9 years of my life to this research.

Regards.

supportpeacenotwar

If anyone's interested about the Nile and how it was known in Ancient Egyptian language, I did a search and apparently wikipedia says "In the ancient Egyptian language, the Nile is called 'p or Iteru, meaning "great river", represented by the hieroglyphs shown on the left (literally itrw, and 'waters' determinative). In Coptic, the words piaro (Sahidic) or phiaro (Bohairic) meaning "the river" (lit. p(h).iar-o "the.canal-great&quot come from the same ancient name." https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile

This whole thing is very curious. In researching this, it is still best to remain open minded to the possibility it isn't Egypt, otherwise then there is no point in looking into it further as our mind would already be made up.

There is definitely value in looking into this further if we wish to do so, though.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.

huruf

Well, in my case there would be no point to continue writing because I am fully convinced it is NOT Egypt.

As far as I know the Nile in Arabic is now Nil and I do not have any news that it has ever been anything else.

There is an Arabic root n-y-l but I wouldn't know by what way it might have come to the name Nil, a more likely one as to meaning, would be n-w-l which means to gift, give, present, etc. since it is said that Egypt is a gift of the Nile. May be some crack in Arabic con enlighten us.

Salaam

unknownuser

Salaam supportpeacenotwar and all.

Like I said in your another thread if I'm not too interested in history, but I found some clues for this

Pharoah is the ruler who want to saw the God by created the tall building.

4036-37 And Pharaoh said ?O Haamaan, build for me a high platform that I may uncover the secrets.? ?The secrets of the heavens, so that I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is a liar.? Thus the evil works of Pharaoh were adorned for him, and he was blocked from the path. And the planning of Pharaoh brought nothing but regret.

As far as I know, the ruler who want to did this is Namrudz of Babilonia during Ibrahim era.But you may search another ruler who did similiar.

We may see the corpse of Pharaoh this day.

1092 ?This day, We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you.? But most of the people are unaware of Our signs!

This means Pharoah's body was survived until this day for our sign or lesson.

How to identify which one is this pharaoh's corpse, read this ayat.

1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But
when he was certain to drown, he said ?I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I
am of those who have submitted.?

See.The Pharaoh killed by drowning, so this means his corpse contain mineral of waters such like salt etc.

And there is discovery of the Pharaoh's mummies which founded in Red Sea and his body was contains salt, and possibility he is that Pharaoh of Exodus, see http//www.ezsoftech.com/giknowledge/firaun.mummy.asp
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjvpAbtHs8

Hope this help.

huruf

Salaam supportpeacenotwar and all.

Like I said in your another thread if I'm not too interested in history, but I found some clues for this

Pharoah is the ruler who want to saw the God by created the tall building.

4036-37 And Pharaoh said ?O Haamaan, build for me a high platform that I may uncover the secrets.? ?The secrets of the heavens, so that I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is a liar.? Thus the evil works of Pharaoh were adorned for him, and he was blocked from the path. And the planning of Pharaoh brought nothing but regret.

As far as I know, the ruler who want to did this is Namrudz of Babilonia during Ibrahim era.

We may see the corpse of Pharaoh this day.

1092 ?This day, We will preserve your body, so that you become a sign for those after you.? But most of the people are unaware of Our signs!

This means Pharoah's body was survived until this day for our sign or lesson.

How to identify which one is this pharaoh's corpse, read this ayat.

1090 And We helped the Children of Israel cross the sea, and Pharaoh and his soldiers followed them out of hatred and animosity. But
when he was certain to drown, he said ?I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I
am of those who have submitted.?

See.The Pharaoh killed by drowning, so this means his corpse contain mineral of waters such like salt etc.

And there is discovery of the Pharaoh's mummies which founded in Red Sea and his body was contains salt, and possibility he is that Pharaoh of Exodus, see http//www.ezsoftech.com/giknowledge/firaun.mummy.asp
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjvpAbtHs8

Hope this help.

It does not say it is a saign to this day. It says for his successors.

On the other hand there is a lot of wishful thinking concerning the identifications of pharos and pharaos of the exodus. In the first place archeologists did not find anything that spoke of bani Israil, simply took whatever seemed to them closer to that word and decided than since there was no better finding than that that had to be Israel. Which is really not scientific at all.

On the other hand I have looked to see which was the purported pharaoh of the exodus and his momy was found all right, but no mention of any sign of being drowned. In view of that they looked for another pharaoh for the job, but neither he is dorwned.

So, please, whoever upholds a kings of Egyt being the fir3awn of the Qur'an please give name of pharaoh and more details, because there have been quite a number of kings of Egypt.

However, the body of Fir3awn, the Quranic lord, may have been recovered by his successors and have been an aya for them, and through the Qur'an narration an aya for everybody, but nobody has looked for things like that anywhere but in Egypt.

Salaam

unknownuser

Peace huruf.

It does not say it is a saign to this day. It says for his successors.

Yes you're true, if the word "khalfaka" or "khalifah" mean succesor, but it's a wrong way if we tafseer it too literally,
Example is the word "khalifah" in 230, is this means we literally became succesor of Allah? &.
Quran was sent down in 6 century, so how the succesor of Pharaoh is still exist, by looking the distance of time between Musa and Muhammad.

So, please, whoever upholds a kings of Egyt being the fir3awn of the Qur'an please give name of pharaoh and more details, because there have been quite a number of kings of Egypt.

I already posting the site for sources, and the mummy is Ramses II.Actually not only that site which give such information but you may find another sites talking similiar

huruf

Why should a succesor to anybody in the past exist now? That aya we have it in the Qur'an, and those before that either they did have the memory of the event or they didn't know the aya as explained by the Qur'an. There is no record in Egypt that anybody ever remembered or recorded anything concerning any Musa who had anything to do with any king of Egypt.

Ramses II did not die by drowning. That is, there is no hint whatsoever that any Egyptian had anything to do with it. And even if an Egyptian king had drowned that would be no proof that he had anything to do with Musa. They had plenty of sea battles without the help of the Bible.

Salaam

Bender

Peace huruf.

Yes you're true, if the word "khalfaka" or "khalifah" mean succesor, but it's a wrong way if we tafseer it too literally,
Example is the word "khalifah" in 230, is this means we literally became succesor of Allah? &.

Salaamun alayka brother,

RED Allahs ayaats are very clear, He knows what He wants to say yes
BLUE It does not say "successor of Allah" nope

Salaam,
Bender

hawk99

Peace Family,

What other countries besides Egypt had pharoahs? If Egypt is the country of pharoah
and if moses went to pharoah, and pharoah was in Egypt, then Moses went to Egypt
To retrieve his folk. Moses came after joseph who preceded his family to Egypt, therefore
the Israelites were in Egypt, Jacob the father of Joseph said

Had you witnessed Jacob on his death bed; he said to his children, "What will
you worship after I die?" They said, "We will worship your god; the god of your fathers
Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac; the one god. To Him we are submitters."

I hope this is helpful

All have a blessed ramadan

peace

huruf

Peace Family,

What other countries besides Egypt had pharoahs? If Egypt is the country of pharoah
and if moses went to pharoah, and pharoah was in Egypt, then Moses went to Egypt
To retrieve his folk. Moses came after joseph who preceded his family to Egypt, therefore
the Israelites were in Egypt, Jacob the father of Joseph said

Had you witnessed Jacob on his death bed; he said to his children, "What will
you worship after I die?" They said, "We will worship your god; the god of your fathers
Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac; the one god. To Him we are submitters."

I hope this is helpful

All have a blessed ramadan

peace

Salaam,

at the beginning of the thread there is a remission to Pazuzu's book on the matter and to a thread on the matter too. I think you should read those before discussing further this question.

Misr in the Qur'an is not Egypt. It cannot be Egypt.

Salaam

hawk99

Peace huruf,

Thank you for your opinion.

Have a blessed ramadan

peace

unknownuser

Peace all

Ramses II did not die by drowning. That is, there is no hint whatsoever that any Egyptian had anything to do with it. And even if an Egyptian king had drowned that would be no proof that he had anything to do with Musa. They had plenty of sea battles without the help of the Bible.

The only battle in red sea is Pharaoh of Exosud.@Hawk 99 is true if all of our Nabi are in same lineage, so most of their settlement is in the middle east especially in Palestine and Egypt, then the Pharaoh who had dealt with Musa must be a ruler in that region.

Ok I have no idea about this again, but I will give the link which give more clear evidences.

http//www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/chariot-wheels.htm
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXf2IDS-9g0

BLUE It does not say "successor of Allah" nope

Wa'alaikum salam Bender.

BLUE230 And your Lord said to the angels ?I am placing a successor on
the earth.?........"

If you disagree, so what is the meaning of "khalifa" in 230 according to you so it will became fit with the aayat?.

Bender

Wa'alaikum salam Bender.

BLUE230 And your Lord said to the angels ?I am placing a successor on
the earth.?........"

If you disagree, so what is the meaning of "khalifa" in 230 according to you so it will became fit with the aayat?.

salaamun alayka,

You said succesor of Allah
The ayaat says a succesor

salaam,
Bender

unknownuser

Walaykum salam Bender.

I don't know what do you mean bro?

If Allah said "I will place my succesor in the earth", so this mean it's indirect said if Allah's position will be replaced by human &.

It's like if you say " I will place my succesor in the office", so this means you already arrange the succesor, so the succesor will replacing your position soon.

Salaaam