Should we accept the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

Aamer

This is not a political question, but a scriptural one. The Quran already prophesied in 17104 that Jews would gather from different places to once again dwell in their promise land. So should Muslims just accept that this is part of Gods plan and let the Jews be, peacefully in Israel?

Verses from Quran
We decreed to the Children of Israel in the book, that you will make corruption twice on earth, and that you will reach the zenith of arrogance.

So, when the promise of the first one comes to pass, We would send against you servants of Ours who are very powerful, thus they managed to breach your very homes, and this was a promise which has come to pass.

Then We gave back to you your independence from them, and We supplied you with wealth and children, and We made you more influential.

If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

We said after him to the Children of Israel "Dwell in the land, then, when the time of the second promise comes, We will bring you all together as a mixed crowd."

Mikebloke

Unfortunately it is all political, even in the context of the verses you've quoted.

If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it.

This is a test for them from God, they are fully aware of their own history. There are many good people in Israel, even Zionist people, there is also a lot of bad people in Israel, it is not a thing that separates it from the rest of the world, just different perhaps even special circumstances.

I don't think there is anything wrong with a 'Jewish state' but ultimately the circumstances of the modern state's creation will likely haunt it for the rest of its existence. I would argue a more stable and self assertive Muslim middle East without the use of dictators and monarchs would make a more open and tolerant (and accepted) Israel. Maybe then we can stop pointless warring over control of Jerusalem.

Meh, my two cents, sorry its not particularly a 'scriptural' answer.

es

Salaam,

Interesting question.

A few years ago, I learned a little Hebrew and recently, I have been trying to get back into it. I was watching Hebrew language videos on "YouTube" a few weeks back and this was suggested to me

http//www.youtube.com/user/coreygilshuster

Ironically, I just had it on when I opened this thread. I avoid the more political stuff, but it gives a unique perspective on the world's most controversial State/ land mass from the people who live there.

Salaam.

Aamer

This is just my theory... Based on the covenant God made with the children of Israel, I think they will be given another chance and I think God will save them from the Anti-Christ (who will be Sunni). I have many reasons why I believe this is the most likely scenario but it's best to keep an open mind. Because none of us know the future. I think we can safely assume though that sectarian Muslims are not Gods people. They were given the ultimate truth and they blew it. Jerusalem will be protected after Damascus is destroyed and Israel weakened (Isaiah 17).

yellowdog8272

Could anyone show me from the Qur'an where it says that the land belongs to the Jews? It's clear to me that God gave the land to the "Children of Israel", hence its citizens which are the Israelies. Who are the children of America? The Americans! Who are the children of Syria? The Syrians. Jew is not an etnicity, but a religion. If there's anyone the land belongs to, then it's totally the Palestinians considering that science shows that the Palestinians evolved from Israelites therefor they own the land. Either way, Israel dosen't belong to any religion.

http//www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdf ''DNA - The Origin of Palestinians and Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations''
http//raelianews.org/news.php?item.398.5''New studies show that Jews and Palestinians are both descendants of the ancient Jewish people. By the ''Ancient Jewish people'' it's referring to Israelites.
http//ronabbass.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/new-dna-science-proves-modern-day-jews-not-related-to-ancient-house-of-israel/ ''Palestinians have more ancient Israelite blood than modern Jews.''

''Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis ((Palestinian 194) and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized."American Academy for the Advancement of Science."

'One Y-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/Taq I) was studied in 54 Lebanese and 69 Palestinian males, and compared with the results found in 693 Jews from three communities (Oriental, Sephardic, and Ashkenazic). Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jews seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies. The haplotype distribution in Oriental Jews is characterized by a significantly higher frequency of haplotype VIII. These results confirm similarities in the Y-haplotype frequencies in Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jewish men, three Near-Eastern populations sharing a common -GEOGRAPHIC- origin.'' Source http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12820706

It makes sense that the Palestinians, the Lebanese and the Sephardic Jews share a geographic origin as the Lebanese are Phonecians/Caananites, while the Palestinians were Israelites/Caananites, and the Sephardic Jews were probaly Israelites/Caananites as well. I've always heard that the Phonecians evolved from local Caananites.

Israel did not "become" a nation (need definitions for both) and it is important
not to compare apples to oranges. Israel of today has little to do with
"Israel" of 3000 years ago. Archeologists at Tel Aviv University showed that
city states and kingdoms were routinely made and obliterated in the ancient land
of Canaan while the natives survived and continued to live. Ethnic cleansing
was only recently practiced (1947-1949). The Israelites evolved from local
Canaanites (archeological evidence, not the stories of the bible which were
never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories
of the bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the bible that Hebrews
prospered with Adomite and other Canaanites. These are not states or nations in
the modern sense. In either case, what is the relevance of this to politics in
the Middle East. Christianity arose 2000 years ago well after Judaism but
before Islam and that does not add anything to whether Christians need to go
back and build a Byzanine state in Palestine. History is important so here
goes.

Canaanitic groups are classified into Western Canaanitic languages (Aramaic,
Assyrian, Phoenician etc.) and Eastern Canaanitic languages (Arabic and Hebrew
which were spoken but not written languages). Northern Canaanites (e.g.
Nebateans and Phoenicians) developed the written languages. All these groups
lived, fought, interacted, collaborated, etc. but no group was obliterated in
history. Two facts are easily verified as examples. Palestinian villagers
especially in Northern Palestine for hundreds of years and until today use the
name Cana?an for their children and many have it as a surname. Second, designs
on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are canaanitic symbols (& are
shared by location and by locals who are both christian and muslim). I can site
several other examples including ritualistic events that are likely pagan in
origin.

The Jebusites (Canaanites) around 3,000 B.C. dwelt on the tract of land "Jebus"
which later became Jerusalem. Ur-Shalem (Jerusalem) is a Canaanite word
meaning, the house of Salem, the chieftain of the clan of Jebusites. The name
Salem is Shalem in the Aramaic language and was also adapted to Arabic and
Hebrew (but much later) to indicate peace. Similarly While Arabs and Jews think
Bethlehem means house of bread or meat respectively, it is more appropriately
house of Laham (the Canaanitic god of the southern hills). The temple of
Solomon likely was built on the ruins of the Jebusite temple just like the Aksa
was built on the same ruins.

Historically, new religions did this so that they can adapt the locals to the
new religion (i.e. you cannot shock them to stop them from going to their holy
places but it is possible to change what Campbell calls "the face of God" (i.e.
the image). Hence the Kaaba in Mecca is also the someplace that the ancient
Pagans worshipped.

All these groups lived, fought, interacted, collaborated, etc. but no group was
obliterated in history. Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine
for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana?an for their children.
Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are
Canaanitic symbols (& are shared by location and by locals who are both
Christian and Muslim). I can site several other examples including ritualistic
events that are likely pagan in origin. Jews converted to Christianity and
Christian converted to Islam as major trends during the establishment of these
religions is also well documented.

One of the major myths perpetuated by latter followers of the religion is their
novelty/freshness/ uniqueness and in the case of of some followers of Judaism
thinking that is more than a religion but an inherited attribute. Genetically,
Palestinian Christians and Muslims are closer to Sephardi Jews than either group
is to Ashkenazi Jews who are in turn more turcik (and indo-European- due to
significant pool of Khazars who converted to Judaism a few hundred years ago).
Ashkenazi thus are not true semites. The use of the word anti-semitic is
corrupted as Arabs are Semites and most Jews are not.

One DNA study by Nebel found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews and by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.
In genetic genealogy studies, Negev Bedouins have the highest rates of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) among all populations tested (62.5%) followed by the Palestinian Arab 38.4%, Ashkenazi Jew 14.6%, and Sephardi Jew 11.9% according to Semino and colleagues. Semitic populations, including Jews, usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J. The haplogroup J1, associated with marker M267, originates south of the Levant and was first disseminated from there into Ethiopia and Europe in Neolithic times. In Jewish populations J1 has a rate of around 15%, with haplogroup J2 (M172) (of eight sub-Haplogroups) being almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (<29%). J1 is most common in the southern Levant, as well as Syria, Iraq, Algeria, and Arabia, and drops sharply at the border of non-semitic areas like Turkey and Iran. A second diffusion of the J1 marker took place in the 7th century CE when Arabians brought it from Arabia to North Africa.
Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) includes the modal haplotype of the Galilee Arabs and of Moroccan Arabs and the sister Modal Haplotype of the Cohanim, the "Cohan Modale Haplotype", representing the descendents of the priestly caste Aaron.

Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool. Since the time of the Muslim conquests in the 7th century, religious conversions have resulted in Palestinians being predominantly Sunni Muslim by religious affiliation, though there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations, as well as Druze and a small Samaritan community. Though Palestinian Jews made up part of the population of Palestine prior to the creation of the State of Israel, few identify as "Palestinian" today. Acculturation, independent from conversion to Islam, resulted in Palestinians being linguistically and culturally Arab.

Source

Davies P.R., "In Search of 'Ancient' Israel", Journal for the Study of the Old Testament, 1992.
Hadawi, S., "Bitter Harvest, a Modern History of Palestine", 4th Edition, Olive Branch Press, NYC, 1991.
Marcus, A.D., The View from Nebo How Archaeology is Rewriting the Bible and Reshaping the Middle East, Little, Brown, Boston, 2000.
Whitelam K.W., The Invention of Ancient Israel and the Silencing of Palestinian History, Routledge, London, 1996.

Part (1) Ashkenazi Jews have been shown to be mostly simply Europeans (as one would assume) GenomeWeb News June 3, 2010 "Ashkenazi Jews seem to be more genetically similar to non-Jewish populations in Northern Italy, France, and Sardinia. Meanwhile, Jewish populations in Iran and Iraq tended to cluster closer to non-Jewish Palestinian, Druze, and Bedouin populations than to Europeans."

(Part 2) See studies like biology-direct(dot)com geneticist Dr. Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin, Ph.D. "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms" published on October 6, 2010

Part (3) pnas(dot)org Bray et al. 2010 "Signatures of founder effects, admixture, and selection in the Ashkenazi Jewish population" showing that Ashkenazi Jews cluster closer to Europeans ("Tuscans, Italians, and French&quot than to Middle Easterners; and saying Ashkenazi Jews have European "admixture" ranging (in that study) from 35% to 55% (other studies go as high as 60%).

(Part 4) As for Khazars, Ashkenazi Jews have haplogroups R1a1 (R-M17), Q, and G2c that are thought to be Khazar inputs into these Jews. And most recently in August 2012 geneticist Dr. Eran Elhaik, Ph.D. of the esteemed School of Medicine of Johns Hopkins University released his study "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses" at arxiv(dot)org which is owned by Cornell University.

(Part 5) Other relevant information is that among "Ashkenazi Levites" 52% of these Ashkenazi Levites have a genetic signature called haplogroup R1a1 that is from the Caucasus region (particularly the modern nation of Georgia, capital Tbilisi) and is thought by most erudite scholars to be associated with the Khazars.

(Part 5 - Continued) And then you also have haplogroup Q, which is often referred to as another "smoking gun" of Khazarian ancestry in Ashekanzi Jews in particular (as many Ashkenazis have this haplogroup Q, haplogroup Q being associated with Central Asia and even Siberia; some Native Americans actually have a form of haplogroup Q from Siberia!)

(Part 6) Also two other important studies; first from Bray et al. 2010 at pnas(dot)org (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America); "The fixation index, FST, calculated concurrently to the PCA, confirms that there is a closer relationship between the AJ (Ashkenazi Jews) and several European populations (Tuscans, Italians, and French) than between the AJ (Ashkenazi Jews) and Middle Eastern populations (Fig. S2B).

(Part 7) Two recent studies performing PCA and population clustering with high-density SNP genotyping from many Jewish Diaspora populations, both showed that of the Jewish populations, the Ashkenazi consistently cluster closest to Europeans"

(Part 8 "Using these proxy ancestral populations, we calculated the amount of European admixture in the AJ (Ashkenazi Jewish) population to be 35 to 55%."And from then from the work of academic Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin a geneticist from "Tel Aviv University" (that sits on land stolen from the Palestinian village of Shaykh Al-Muwannis.

(Part 8 - Continued) Modern "Tel Aviv-Yafo" aka Yaffa sits on the land of seven destroyed and looted Palestinian villages "Zochrot has documented 7 Palestinian villages on which Tel Aviv is built Shaykh Muwannis, Summayl, Jammasin al-Gharbi, al-Manshyyah, Salama, Abu Kabir, Fishermen Village, and Irsheed.&quot

(Part 9 "According to the autosomal polymorphisms the investigated Jewish populations do NOT share a common origin, and EEJ (Eastern European Jews) are closer to Italians in particular and to Europeans in general than to the other Jewish populations. The similarity of EEJ to Italians and Europeans is also supported by the X chromosomal haplogroups."

I'm convinced that most of the todays Jews who claims to have their origin in Israel are rather Khazars instead, hence Eastern-Europeans in terms of origin and have no ties to Palestine whatsoever.

If there's anywhere most of them belong, it's somewhere here

http//i44.tinypic.com/29yf5om.gif

There are Jewish Israelites with ancestors that stretch back to Israel no doubt, but I believe that these people are a small amount. A Palestinian is more likely to be the native of the land. However, I can also say that there are Palestinians with Arab descendens that goes back to Saudi-Arabia as they were conquered by Arabs. But not only by the Arabs, even by Alexander the Great and then you had the crusaders too who came long after.

yellowdog8272

This is just my theory... Based on the covenant God made with the children of Israel, I think they will be given another chance and I think God will save them from the Anti-Christ (who will be Sunni). I have many reasons why I believe this is the most likely scenario but it's best to keep an open mind. Because none of us know the future. I think we can safely assume though that sectarian Muslims are not Gods people. They were given the ultimate truth and they blew it. Jerusalem will be protected after Damascus is destroyed and Israel weakened (Isaiah 17).

I find this theory to be pretty weak. And if you're going to abandon the Hadiths, then you might as well do the same thing with the bible, no?

If I'm correct, the Qur'an does not mention the anti-christ, right? So why do you believe in him? Oh well, it's still just a theory..

Damascus is NEVER going to be destroyed. If there's anyone trying to destroy it then it's Israel today and the rulers in the West. The bible is such a useless book that has had most of its content taken from Egyptian pagans. The "Anti-Christ" story was taken from there too.

Haha God is not protecting Jerusalem, the only thing that is protecting Jerusalem right now is money. More than 330 billion of dollars has flown to Israel. America pays the bills of Israel, and America keeps it alive.

I hate it when people make it looks as if God is on Israels side, although Israel has committed illegal organ harvest against the Palestinians in 1990. Israel that used Jewish suicide bombers against Arab countries during the Israeli-Arab war to scare the Arab Jews from these countries. There is A LOT more crimes. Even the UN has tried to take action, but America keeps using VETO which prevents the UN from acting.

''I am going to tell you something. I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business. I met with top British officials, who confessed to me, that they were preparing something in Syria. This was in Britain not in America. Britain was organizing an invasion of rebels into Syria. They even asked me, although I was no longer Minister of Foreign Affairs, if I would like to participate. Naturally, I refused, I said I am French, that does not interest me. This operation goes way back. It was prepared, preconceived and planned... in the region it is important to know that this Syrian regime has a very anti-Israeli stance. Consequently, everything that moves in the region...- and I have this from a former Israeli Prime Minister who told me ?we will try to get on with our neighbors but those who don?t agree with us will be destroyed. It is a type of politics, a view of history, why not after all. But one should know about it''

Source presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/16/309276/uk-planned-war-on-syria-before-unrest/

If "Sectarian Muslims" are not "Gods chosen people" then the same thing applies to the Orthodox Jews, and every sectarian Jew/Religious sectarian person.

I'm not interested on how people view Sunnis here. It's sad really.. The Sunnis aren't bad people. Have everyone already forgotten the Islamic golden age? It was the sunnis that brought things to Europe. In the early centuries of the Islamic Caliphate, the Islamic law allowed citizens to freely express their views, including criticism of Islam and religious authorities, without fear of persecution. As such, there have been several notable Muslim critics and skeptics of Islam that arose from within the Islamic world itself. In tenth and eleventh-century Syria there lived a blind poet called Al-Ma'arri. He became well known for a poetry that was affected by a "pervasive pessimism."

Although I don't really like to call it the "Islamic golden age".. I prefer to call it the middle-eastern/African golden age. Arabs, Persians, Egyptians and many other middle-eastern and Africans were united and were in a golden age. I don't see how religion has anything to do with this.

And don't forget Spain which was conquered by Sunni Arabs were the Arabs brought a lot of great things while the rest of Europe was still stuck in its dark age - LOL.

As a Palestinian(with possibly Caananite/Israelite descend), I consider Israel to be a complete joke.

May G-d destroy Israel, Zionism and Hamas/Islamists.

I support a democratic or atleast a secular Palestinian state. Palestine does not belong to any religion. It belongs to the natives living there(I.e the Palestinians with Israelite descends and the todays Israelis with Israelite descends. May it be a Jew, Christian, Muslim - It dosen't matter.)

JewishDude

Hi Everyone,

First off I am not a Zionist. I think that if someone wishes to settle and live peaceably anywhere in the world then they should be allowed to do this. Immigration laws are insane and draconian. Allah gave mankind the whole world to live in. Not just one part. Immigration laws are a big part of the problems in the world.

I am not opposed to Jews settling in the "land of Israel" just as I am not opposed to Jews living next door to me in the US. However I am opposed to oppressing people and hurting others in order to settle in any location. If there is a majority of Jews who happen to live in Israel and they democratically create laws as they see fit, then fine. But there should be no violence, oppression or hurting of others in order to accomplish this. Also if they choose to live there and they are not in the majority, then they should live peacefully under the laws in place created by the majority.

Just my crazy opinion
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace

diamantinehoneybunch

Salaam 3Awny,

How do you know that the open-minded people during the Islamic Golden Age were Sunnis?

Regards,
Yuliana

yellowdog8272

Hi Everyone,

First off I am not a Zionist. I think that if someone wishes to settle and live peaceably anywhere in the world then they should be allowed to do this. Immigration laws are insane and draconian. Allah gave mankind the whole world to live in. Not just one part. Immigration laws are a big part of the problems in the world.

I am not opposed to Jews settling in the "land of Israel" just as I am not opposed to Jews living next door to me in the US. However I am opposed to oppressing people and hurting others in order to settle in any location. If there is a majority of Jews who happen to live in Israel and they democratically create laws as they see fit, then fine. But there should be no violence, oppression or hurting of others in order to accomplish this. Also if they choose to live there and they are not in the majority, then they should live peacefully under the laws in place created by the majority.

Just my crazy opinion
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace

I totally agree. You should be the primeminister of Israel instead.

I believe that the Jews have the right to settle in the land of Israel. But they should not claim that it's theirs as long as they are not natives. If they are, then be my guest. Infact they can regardless of native or not, but then they should be atleast Israelies/Palestinians by nationality.

The Jews with Israelite descend, and the Palestinians with Israelite descends should be ruling the country. Not garbage zionists with european ancestors like Benjamin netanyahu...
And I can not call him Israeli by nationality as people like him does not represent Israel or the Israelites. I'd also say that the todays Israel(judging by its cruel actions towards the natives and its neighboors) is VERY different than the Israel that existed a long time ago.

Zionism, and any type of nationalism shall remain in Europe.

Peace/Shalom.

yellowdog8272

Salaam 3Awny,

How do you know that the open-minded people during the Islamic Golden Age were Sunnis?

Regards,
Yuliana

Hi Yulianna,

Well that's what I'm assuming. They were followers of the hadiths though, no? Or am I wrong?

I read this

The caliphate often exercised a great degree of religious tolerance towards non-Ismaili sects of Islam as well as towards Jews, Maltese Christians, and Coptic Christians. The courts in Fatimid areas used Hanafi scholars and the population was predominantly Sunni. (This was in Cairo). Under the Fatimids, Egypt became the center of an empire that included at its peak North Africa, Sicily, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Red Sea coast of Africa, Tihamah, Hejaz, and Yemen. Egypt flourished, and the Fatimids developed an extensive trade network in both the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean. Their trade and diplomatic ties extended all the way to China and its Song Dynasty, which eventually determined the economic course of Egypt during the High Middle Ages. Unlike other governments in the area, Fatimid advancement in state offices was based more on merit than on heredity. Members of other branches of Islam, like the Sunnis, were just as likely to be appointed to government posts as Shiites. Tolerance was extended to non-Muslims such as Christians, and Jews, who occupied high levels in government based on ability, and tolerance was set into place to ensure the flow of money from all those who were non-Muslims too in order to finance the Fatimids Caliphs' large army of Mamluks brought in from Circassia by Genoese merchants.

Even if they were Sunnis or atleast Muslims, I don't really believe they were religious, atleast not the scientist ha-ha... Infact I believe that most of them were opposed to religion. I've read somewhere that Arab and Persian scientist began criticising all religions, including Islam. Anyway, all of them allowed religion to be criticised, and were more open-minded to science. And they took help from other people with different religions. Scientists within the Islamic civilization were of diverse ethnicities. Most were Persians, Arabs, Moors, Assyrians, and Egyptians. I couldn't find what the early Arab-Muslim scientist really believed in, but I found some of who are claimed to be Shia and Sunnis by other people(It dosen't really say much about the previous Muslims)..

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_al-Din_al-Tusi
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nafis
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabir_ibn_Hayyan
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

There's more..

Anyway, as my astronomy teacher says "Why do we only talk about "European scientists" when there where Arabs, Persians, Chinese, etc who has invented A LOT more things than us?"

The reason why the Islamic golden age was a success was because of multi-culturlism, religious tolerance, criticism, increase of education, etc.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Persian_scientists_and_scholars
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_scientists_and_scholars

)

I read this too

The Islamic Golden Age is an Abbasid historical period beginning in the mid 8th century lasting until the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258. The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad. The Abbasids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" that stressed the value of knowledge. The Abbasids claimed to belong to the same tribe to which the Prophet Muhammad belonged, and were for that reason considered holy. During this period the Arab world became an intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education; the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established the House of Wisdom (Bait-ul-Hikmat) at Baghdad, where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic.

I checked what the Abbasid Caliphate is all about, and it has Sunni Islam as main religion..

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate

"Once in power, the Abbasids embraced Sunni Islam and disavowed any support for Shi'a beliefs."

diamantinehoneybunch

I am pretty sure the awesome muslims during Islamic Golden Age weren't true Sunnis. The collections of hundreds of thousands hadiths came into existence around 800-900 CE.

The smartie/genius Ibn Khaldun also criticized hadiths though.

Tolerance has no place in true Sunnism.

Regards,
Yuliana

yellowdog8272

I am pretty sure the awesome muslims during Islamic Golden Age weren't true Sunnis. The collections of hundreds of thousands hadiths came into existence around 800-900 CE.

The smartie/genius Ibn Khaldun also criticized hadiths though.

Tolerance has no place in true Sunnism.

Regards,
Yuliana

You're probaly right when you say that they criticised Hadiths and Sunnism, but I don't believe that they(Specialy many Persians) criticised Sunnism only, but even Islam and all religions as well. Somehow, I don't think they were Muslims anymore.. Maybe they were, who knows?

Either way, criticism against religions should always be allowed.

Regarding Ibn khaldun, that's pretty interesting! Where did you read that? I read a little about him and it says

"He received a classical Islamic education, studying the Qur'an which he memorized by heart, Arabic linguistics, the basis for an understanding of the Qur'an, hadith, sharia (law) and fiqh (jurisprudence)."

I read this as well

The Islamic Golden Age is an Abbasid historical period beginning in the mid 8th century lasting until the Mongol conquest of Baghdad in 1258. The Islamic Golden Age was inaugurated by the middle of the 8th century by the ascension of the Abbasid Caliphate and the transfer of the capital from Damascus to Baghdad. The Abbasids were influenced by the Qur'anic injunctions and hadith such as "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" that stressed the value of knowledge. The Abbasids claimed to belong to the same tribe to which the Prophet Muhammad belonged, and were for that reason considered holy. During this period the Arab world became an intellectual center for science, philosophy, medicine and education; the Abbasids championed the cause of knowledge and established the House of Wisdom (Bait-ul-Hikmat) at Baghdad, where both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars sought to translate and gather all the world's knowledge into Arabic.

I went to check what the Abbasid Caliphate is all about, and it has Sunni Islam as main religion..

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate

"Once in power, the Abbasids embraced Sunni Islam and disavowed any support for Shi'a beliefs."

Still the reason why they were sucessful was because they allowed criticism, religious tolerance, increase of education, multi-culturlism, etc.

I found this pretty interesting

Hospitals in this era were the first to require medical diplomas to license doctors. In the medieval Islamic world, hospitals were built in most major cities; in Cairo for example, the Qalawun hospital had a staff that included physicians, pharmacists, and nurses.
Medical facilities traditionally closed each night, but by the 10th century laws were passed to keep hospitals open 24 hours a day and hospitals were forbidden to turn away patients who were unable to pay. Eventually, charitable foundations called waqfs were formed to support hospitals, as well as schools. This money supported free medical care for all citizens.
The first institutions for the care of mentally ill people were also established.

unknownuser

Either way, criticism against religions should always be allowed.

Salam, 3awni...What do you mean by "religions" here? Do you mean the beliefs of the people? The Scriptures,? or the religious institutions?

yellowdog8272

Salam, 3awni...What do you mean by "religions" here? Do you mean the beliefs of the people? The Scriptures,? or the religious institutions?

Walaikom wa salam,

What I ment by that is everything of what you just pointed out. The scriptures, the beliefs of the people, the religious institutions, and so on.

diamantinehoneybunch

Salaam 3Awny,

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10852.msg66007#msg66007

I do not believe any hadith or report of a companion of the prophet to be true which differs from the common sense meaning of the Quran, no matter how trustworthy the narrators may have been. It is not impossible that a narrator appears to be trustworthy though he may be moved by ulterior motive. If hadith?s were criticized for their textual contents as they were for the narrators who transmitted them, a great number would have been rejected. It is a recognized principle that a hadith could be declared spurious if it departs from the common sense meaning of the Quran from the recognized principles of Shariah, the rules of Logic, the evidence of sense, or any other self-evident truth.

Regarding Ibn khaldun, that's pretty interesting! Where did you read that? I read a little about him and it says

"He received a classical Islamic education, studying the Qur'an which he memorized by heart, Arabic linguistics, the basis for an understanding of the Qur'an, hadith, sharia (law) and fiqh (jurisprudence)."

Many Qur'an-alone muslims and hadith-scrutinizers also learned and studied hadiths at school and in their entire life and many of them used to believe in hadiths before seeing the truth about hadiths.
The same goes with people like Ibn Khaldun I think.