Salat According to the Quran and a Critical Remark
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So what is the secured tablet?
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Salaam,
So God could not keep the Quran preserved? It gets worse and worse, but it is not like it would help me follow the tradition of Shia's ahl bayt anyway. In that case I follow the general Message of God. Why follow idolaters?
And sorry about continuing off-topic. I will stop.
God bless you
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So what is the secured tablet?
A red herring!
So typical of a delusional pathological liar, such as yourself.GOD sent us al-ikr (6510), and promised to preserve it (159).
Al-ikr (i.e. the Reminder, or Memorial) is but another name for the Quran (4141, 3849, 156, etc).No "secured tablet" here sir.
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this is the problem you Quranist face, what Allah has promised to protect is the secured tablet, often mentioned in the Quran not the current compilation we have today.
And your point is?
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Peace all
I never debate/ argue with hard core SUNNIS and SHIAS because doing this is equal to brickwall
So leave them alone,
As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least their affair is with Allah He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. 6159
The prophet had no concern with those people who separated themselves from the QURAN CLUB and joined the HADITH CLUB / MULLAH CLUB / INFALLIBLE IMAMAM CLUB and we also do not have concern with them let them go to ....
Of those who divided their religion, and became sects; each faction pleased with what they have 3032
These people are pleased with what they have HADITH, MULLAH, INFALLIBLE IMAMS
Then We will surely extract from every sect those of them who were worst against the Most Merciful in insolence 1969
THEY WILL PAY THE PENALTY FOR NEGLECTING THE QURAN AND JOINING THE CLUB OF HADITH / MULLAH / INFALLIBLE IMAM
And the Messenger will say, ?My Lord, my people TOOK THIS QURAN AS AN OBSOLETE 2530
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OBSOLETE Cause (a product (QURAN) or idea) to be or become OBSOLETE by replacing it with something new (HADITH, MULLAH, INFALLIBLE IMAMS)
No longer used (QURAN) because something newer (HADITH, MULLAH, INFALLIBLE IMAMS) exists replaced by something newer
No longer (QURAN) used by anyone.
Thanks
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Peace all
just for clarification and trying to keep up with the topic, Does the Quran mention placing your forehead on something natural clay/stone etc as the Shia's perform the salat.
I know some of them (Shia) practice 3 times a day salat with accordance to the Quran's mention.Peace
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Peace Unplugged
just for clarification and trying to keep up with the topic, Does the Quran mention placing your forehead on something natural clay/stone etc as the Shia's perform the salat.
I know some of them (Shia) practice 3 times a day salat with accordance to the Quran's mention.Peace
Salam Unplugged ,
No there is no rubbing of the forehead on the ground as something allaah ( swt) required , but if someone do it deliberately then .... , the mark mentioned in 4829 are withing or inside the face not above or on the face ( fi/withing or inside - not above or on ) , the mark are from long concentration to allaah physically , intellectually and practically by following the commands in social life.
see the quot below for more clarification , and the link above for the whole thread , you may find it helpful and Hope you no longer stays unplugged )
same as we saw previously about "Bowing down / Rukkaa " in many verses the word "Prostrating / S'jada " come after the movement of "fell /kharra " , witch mean that the the imperative verb prostrate/ As'jud mean fallout into the ground , and then incline the upper body down to the ground , the quran explain this movement clearly by the following description
16 - 48
16 - 48 Have they not observed all things that Allah hath created, how their shadows incline to the right and to the left, making prostration unto Allah, and they are lowly?
The movement of prostration is the same as the movement of the shadow of an abject .
17 - 107
17 - 107 Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited upon them, they fall to their chins in prostration
So simply fall to their chins in prostrating mean inclining to the angle where the chin is down to the ground , there is no mentioning that t(he forehead should touch the ground , the verse 48 - 29 was wrongly explained
48 - 29 Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Taourat. And their description in the Anjil is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.
There is diffrence between " on / fi " and "Above /Aala " , " on / fi " something mean withing , inside through etc , "Above /Aala " mean on the top of , something you can see and touche above something you can see and touch . the expression find in verse 48 - 29 Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration is from the first meaning , the mark that are on their faces from prostration is on all the face as you can remark not a black dot in the forehead , if the meaning was about signaling a dot mark in the forehead the Quran would use the word "Above /Aala " instead of " on / fi " , so simply the mark that is on the face as a trace from prostration is due to the long concentration / fixation while the believers are in state of "prostration/ Al-sujud"
39 - 9
39 - 9 Is one who is "Qanet / fixed" during periods of the night, prostrating and standing , fearing the Hereafter and hoping for the mercy of his Lord, ? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember people of understanding.
so the mark on the faces is due to the trace caused by long period where the believers are fixed / concentrated while prostrating and is not due to the forehead touching the ground.
I highly signal that both action / movement bow down and prostrate/ As'jud has no value or meaning without the reasoning and the action of the heart / , when the believers used to prostrate when they heard the verses of the Quran its because their heart repent to it its a sign movement of submitting to Allah , they acknowledge and uphold the meaning and they accepted it upon them wither as a information about the unseen or as structures or command decreed-ed above them , so the point is that bow down and prostrate/ As'jud are not a blind movement and this is why there is no counting while doing them as counting is simply against and disturbing the concept of "Fixed state / Al-Qonout " and "concentration / Al-Khouchoa? " both concept are recommended to be achieved .
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Root
Affectionate surrender of one's will and freedom/liberty-Forehead on the ground.
- Basic initial meanings Feel of reverence and its expression through gesture-body language-lowering of head in state chin moving towards chest and gaze going down. It is a relational word-a relationship between the Reverent and the Revered. Reverent and the Revered could be any object or person.
Advanced meanings in the changed relational field when the Revered is the Only One-The Absolute-The Only Independent-The Self Subsisting-The Creator-The Supreme Exalted-Sovereign Sustainer Lord of the Universes
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Dear "man of faith" and I hope you really are.
What makes you think that following the outlines of the Quran is enough to be faithful to Allah?
If the Quran is the same message as the bible and the old testaments and not a continuity and a conclusion to them, then what is the point of sending the prophet Muhammad with such a heavy message and making him struggle to deliver it for no more than a repetition of what was previously stated and which as you claim could still be recovered from the corrupted Gospel of jesus?
Do you really think that following the Quran alone, regardless to the prophet's teatching and Hadith , is enough to find the path to Allah? Do you really think that you alone can understand the verses an draw conclusions upon which you find the way to Allah?
Have you ever read this verse of the Quran"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (Aal-e-Imran verse 7)
Can you please tell me who are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"?
Can you be sure that you can understand the verses of the Quran in the right way and not your own mislead way?
Isn't it obvious to you that the prophet did really delivered the message but didn't have time to explain in person all the details to us, hence we do really need the help from those who are firmly rooted in knowledge?
Do you know who those are?
Allah says
Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (Al-Ahzab verse 33)When he was asked about who the "people of the House" are, the prophet answered
According to hadith from sunni books (such as sahih muslim) and shia books those people are MUHAMMAD, ALI , FATIMA, HASSAN and HUSSEIN.
You definitely admit that when Allah desires something he just says "Be".
(Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.)You previously stated
When Ibrahim asked if God's covenant would cover his offspring God replied that His covenant does not cover the unrighteous.
(Just for information God's covenant is not only a sort of agreement it is Al-Imama.)
Here is the Aya
"And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He."(Al-Bakara verse 124)Do you know that banou Umayyah and banou Al-Abass-who violated al-Cilapha- are offsprings of Ibrahim?
They are the real unrighteous who shall not be covered by God's covenant even though they sit on the thrown, they are not to be followed as representing allah! As you know Ibrahim was declared as Iman and never happened to be a king with a thrown or whatever.One the other hand, Ahlulbait are purified according to Allah's will, and they are the ones to be followed.
Here comes the aya
Say I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives. (Ash-Shura verse 23)
For information it is not the word love that allah used in arabic it is "al-mawaddah" which means more than just love, it is to love and to be faithful to something.
Of course they rewarded the prophet by violating Al-Cilapha first from Ali-the True Imam- then from his offspring, and they were not satisfied until they slaughtered Al-Hussein in Karbala who was seeking repair in al-Ummah.Do you know that the prophet in his last days kept saying this
I am leaving with you the two weightiness (most heavy things), the book of Allah and my household. If you laid hold on both of them you shall never get lost.
I enjoin you by Allah concerning my household (three times).Can you see now that those people who must be followed after the prophet are Ahlulbait?
The problem is that most muslims followed the lead of the one who said "The prophet is overwhelmed with pain, the book of Allah is sufficient for us", this event known as "the shame of the day of thursday" happened when the prophet asked his companions during his last illness to bring him an inkwell so he could write down something after-which they would never get lost.
It is obvious what the prophet intended to write, that man clearly anticipated it so he cut the way by saying what he said and implicitly revealing what he fears we don't want the lead of Ahlulbait if we get lost, the book of Allah is sufficient.
So this man is the father of all contradictor explanations (tafseer) of the Quran, that is because he withdraws the explanations of Ahlulbait because it leads of them being in power as True-Imams according to Allah's wish. Then he found himself, he and his fellows, obliged to stand up for misleading explanations against Ahlulbait, and to do so they had to invent a lot of hadiths, but first they had to get rid of all that might lead to Ahlulbait as righteous heirs of the legacy. So, after the death of the prophet they forbid the transmission of Hadith, they burnt all the parchments of hadith they found with the compagnions, all under the cover of protecting the Islam. This went on for many years until the library of hadith was rich with every kind of hadith that satisfies their wills, going from glorifying themselves, to attributing faults to the prophet's person, to improvising lies about his personal lives, worshipping some bad people known to be munafikeen, and so on with no one daring to reject this either under the threaten of sword or the seduction of money or power except for a very few number of companions who where either killed or exiled like what was done to Abu-Thar Al-Ghifari.In conclusion, with this mentality, it is not surprising to find a lot of contradiction in the tafseer books. However the pure source of tafseer is still with those who are firmly rooted in knowledge Ali and the eleven Imams from his offspring, which they got from the prophet himself who taught Ali one thousand doors of knowledge, each of them lead to one thousand other doors, this divine knowledge was passed down to the rest Imams.
Finally, and after this I don't know according to what proof you claim that shia are idolaters???!
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Salam Alkitab
17 - 107 Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited upon them, they fall to their chins in prostration
So simply fall to their chins in prostrating mean inclining to the angle where the chin is down to the ground , there is no mentioning that t(he forehead should touch the ground , the verse 48 - 29 was wrongly explained
So this means ayat 17107 is not a commandment for do sujud?
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"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. (Aal-e-Imran verse 7)
Can you please tell me who are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"?
The Quran is for all mankind, and for all ages. And in every day and age, there will be those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, who are qualified to understand the allegories and metaphors found in the Quran. This is normal, because not all people are created equal in intellect.
This need for "ta'weel" (or "interpretation", as you call it) is for the allegorical / metaphoric signs only.
The same word is used when describing the vision that Joseph (P) had in a dream. In the begining of the story (Surah #12), Joseph saw 11 planets and the sun and moon prostrating themselves to him. Being that dreams are symbolic, the ta'weel of Joseph's vision came at the end of the story when his father (the "sun" his mother (the "moon" and his brothers (the "planets" all came to him and were gathered in his presence, after he had been seperated from them. Hence, this was the "ta'weel" (interpretation) of Joseph's vision. And Joseph was given the ability to interpret the symbolic meaning in dreams.
The phrase {none knows its interpretation} does not refer to the entire Qur'an, but only to the allegorical part thereof.
Did Allah say "none knows its interpretation except Allah and the 14 descendants of Ali through Fatimah"?
Or are you putting words into the messenger's mouth?
Care to read the following passage, please, and tell me who those "well-founded in knowledge" are?
{Because of the wickedness from among those who are Jewish, We made unlawful to them the good things that were lawful to them; and for their deterring many from the path of Allah * And for their taking of usury, while they were prohibited from doing so, and for their consuming the money of the people unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful retribution. * But those of them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was sent down to you and what was sent down before you; and those who uphold the Salat, and those who contribute towards purification, and those who believe in Allah and the Last Day; to these We will give them their recompense greatly}...
Who are they? Is the passage above talking about the 14 descendants of Ali through Fatima?
You have been openly defiying Allah and making a mockery of his Book, and the universal laws set forth therein, meant as guidance for ALL OF MANKIND, by claiming that only 14 people in the entire history of planet Earth can understand it. As for the remainder of humanity, they are all "zero on the left" so to speak.
So when Allah says that the Quran is a guidance for ALL OF MANKIND, He actually means to say that it is a guidance for Ali and his 14 descendants through Fatimah. This is your logic?
Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. (Al-Ahzab verse 33)
When he was asked about who the "people of the House" are, the prophet answered
According to hadith from sunni books (such as sahih muslim) and shia books those people are MUHAMMAD, ALI , FATIMA, HASSAN and HUSSEIN.
You definitely admit that when Allah desires something he just says "Be".
(Our word for a thing when We intend it, is only that We say to it, Be, and it is.)The word "RIJS" does NOT mean "uncleanliness", as your false marja3s teach you. And "The House" mentioned in 3333 is NOT the house of Muhammad. And the passage has nothing to do with Ali and his 14 descendants through Fatimah, nor does it have anything to do with the concept of "infallibilty", which your marja3s have been brainwashing you with, in order to devour one fifth of your earnings.
And the entire corpus of the Hadeeths, penned down by 6 Persian LIARS of the Barmak courts of Khorasan and the One Thousand and One Nights, are not worth the paper they are being printed on.
Your concept of "Imamah" is FALSE and has no basis in the Quran whatsoever. Ibraheem (P), because he contemplated the divine laws of creation around him, achieved a level of wisdom that was far ahead of his age, and reached the conclusion, by observing natural phenomenon, that there must be a Creator for everything. Ibraheem didn't need Ali and his 14 descendants through Fatimah to lead him to this conclusion. As a result, he was made an "imam", meaning a guide for people. (One who lead by example, by devoting his entire existence to the service of Allah). That's what the word "imam" means in the passage. The Shias, in their translations of the Quran into English, always like to keep the word "imam" untrantslated, and they render it with a capital "I" (Imam), to give the impression that the word denotes some kind of mystical title that is even above the level of the messengers. They keep on boasting of how Ibraheem was already a messenger of Allah, but was then elevated to the status of Imam!!
Finally, and after this I don't know according to what proof you claim that shia are idolaters???!
The proof lies in how you twist and manipulate the meaning of Allah's words, and take the passages of the Quran completely out of context (through man-made Hadeeths), to make them fit with your preconceptions and ideologies.
I know that Mu3awiya and his descendants were filthy dogs, hypocrites, and criminal tyrants. History alone is testament to this fact. But this in no way means that I have the right to invent a radically opposing creed that elevates the descendants of Muhammad to the status of gods, just to get my revenge on the Umayyads.
Peace..
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Salaam,
I know that there is no point in discussing this, but I call Shia Muslims idolaters because they take their ahl al-bayt as masters and they love them as they should love God. It is not a healthy respect for deliverers of the Message but straight worship.
The Quran is not teaching anything particularly new and is just God's Message to confirm His earlier Message and as a reminder that His Covenant is still valid still as of today. All is the so-called Al-Kitaab. The advantage with Quran is that God promised to safeguard it.
The Message is primarily a sign of God and testament to His existence. It is also a guide at the same time and can help people who understand the Message to live better lives.
As you know from the scripture; the main criteria to reach salvation is honest belief in God, eternal existence and to live as a good person. Quran teaches very well about behavior and it is its main purpose. It teaches some ways of commemorating Him. It does not teach to idolize human beings. He specifically told not to take anyone except God as master and most people do that and it is also in accordance to what He has foreseen. Because He sees everything.
God bless you
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As you know from the scripture; the main criteria to reach salvation is honest belief in God, eternal existence and to live as a good person. Quran teaches very well about behavior and it is its main purpose. It teaches some ways of commemorating Him. It does not teach to idolize human beings.
What is conspicously absent in this opinion is the mention of the Messengers. Without honest belief in them there is no salvation ensured by Allah the Exalted. Whatever is ensured-guaranted/glad tidings, it is through the Messenger. Presently, whoever revers not the Messenger, his claim of having honest belief and love for Allah is false and lip service. Qur'aan emphasises this point quite explicitly.
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Salaam,
I think you are out on thin ice, brother Mazhar, when you say that the Messengers require reverence. You posted a verse the other day which you claim should prove this point, but it does not say you should love Muhammad. It says if you hold the other people and things dearer to you than God and the Messenger then it means that if his Message he brought was less important than your life and family. It did not invite to revere the prophet.
You use this stuff to justify idolatry. That seems dangerous you know. And you are quite skilled at Arabic too, but you should focus a bit on the pragmatic part.
God bless you
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Salaam,
I think you are out on thin ice, brother Mazhar, when you say that the Messengers require reverence. You posted a verse the other day which you claim should prove this point, but it does not say you should love Muhammad. It says if you hold the other people and things dearer to you than God and the Messenger then it means that if his Message he brought was less important than your life and family. It did not invite to revere the prophet.
You use this stuff to justify idolatry. That seems dangerous you know. And you are quite skilled at Arabic too, but you should focus a bit on the pragmatic part.
God bless you
The words of the Book are simple and straight forward. The comparison by a comparative noun is also between personalities and this is about love, dearness and it denotes admiration, reverence for something and person to acquire and associate with.
Minus belief in the Messengers, acceptance of their elevated stature above all others and respect and admiration there is no scope for anyone for salvation.Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it
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Peace brother Mazhar
Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it
........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157
I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?
QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?
I believe the messenger was so far the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. N
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Peace brother Mazhar
Quote
Reverence and the Book are both important Ponder for a while over it
........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157
I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?
QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?
I believe the messenger as the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. Now tell me whether this belief of mine is a part or whole of the RESPECT.
Please define your RESPECT to the Messenger. (probably I have to failed to grasp the meaning of RESPECT)
More importantly this verse is addressed to the PEOPLE of the BOOK
Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet. Whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injil; he biddeth them to the seemly and prohibiteth unto them the unseemly, alloweth unto them things clean and forbiddeth unto them things unclean and relieveth them of their burthen and the shackles which have been upon them. SO THOSE who believe in him and side with him and succour him and follow the light which hath been sent down with him; those they shall fare well 7157
This verse was valid when the MESSENGER, THE PROPHET, THE GENTILE was ALIVE and it does not have any relation with the present believers.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Thanks
Sorry for the repeated post, it was due to some problem with my PC
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........Then those who BELIEVE in him, and HONOR him, and HELP him, and FOLLOW the light which is sent down with him they are the SUCCESSFUL 7157
I believe in the Messenger, I follow the Light (Quran) but I cannot HELP the Messenger since he is no more alive?
QUESTION Will I be SUCCESSFUL?
I believe the messenger as the best person in the word in respect of character, I believe he was the mirror of the Quran, I believe he erred but never sinned. Now tell me whether this belief of mine is a part or whole of the RESPECT.
Salamun alaika,
Good thinking in line with Qur'aan.
You cannot help him!! How do you help-aid Allah the Exalted?