Worship Allah and not the Quran

Nazzam

Salam,

I did, but I believe he choose to rely on dogma and fallacy, instead of the actual word of Allah. There is no compulsion for him to accept my argument.

Peace peace

There is no 'word of Allah', just as there is no 'hand of Allah' or 'face of Allah'.

These are metaphorical.

kgwithnob

There is no 'word of Allah', just as there is no 'hand of Allah' or 'face of Allah'.

These are metaphorical.

Highlight above is from me.

96,

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

How do you interpret, just for example, the above verse among many others regarding the word of ALLAAH?

Peace,
Khalil

muslims

Peace Muslims,

You make up your own definitions, but I'm the one not using proper reasoning?
I think it's impolite to laugh at someone, but you're pushing me.

God bless

peace

Peace hawk99

Seriously, I don't understand the significance of your objection. I have given you the format to show the flaw in your argument and you do not understand what it means. You are even making claims that the English translation is more accurate than the Qur'an, and without any valid reasons.

Allah never asked me to believe in the translation.

There is only one Qur'an, and it is in Arabic. It is not in English.

Main issue

muslims Arabic Qur'an without deviance (392

an Arabic Qur'an
without any deviance
that they might become righteous
(392

hawk99 Relying on the English translation as more accurate than the Arabic Qur'an

muslims Therefore, this is our issue

If you all are referring to a language other than english, Islam may mean many things,
but in English, Islam refers to a religion

Arabic is a "language other than English".

Therefore and according to you, "Islam may mean many things" in Arabic language.

hawk99 You repeat on the importance of English translation over the Arabic Qur'an

muslims Conclusion to your argument

Is this your argument?

"Madhab" is religion.
"Deen" is not "Madhab".
Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English.

Why?

Who cares what it means in English.

Allah never asked me to believe in the translation.

There is only one Qur'an, and it is in Arabic. It is not in English.

You are unable to identify what is an argument and blame on me for your inability to understand the process of identifying sound argument

In English Deen = religion

Salam hawk99,

Is this your argument?

"Madhab" is religion.
"Deen" is not "Madhab".
Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English.

No that was not my argument, those are your words not mine. nope

Please refer to the dictionary and root words for "Deen" and "Madhab".

So that you can see your conclusion is not corroborated with the actual premise for religion and deen.

Therefore, it is false conclusion (no. 3; ie. your conclusion).. a dogma.

I helped you to identify what is an argument and premises.

Do you know which is the premise and the conclusion (argument)?

Don't confuse the "premise" with the "argument" (conclusion, no.3).

http//z5.ifrm.com/30336/15/0/f5229388/argument.png

"Madhab" is religion. <- Premise 1
"Deen" is not "Madhab". <- Premise 2

Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English. <- Your argument, conclusion

If you all are referring to a language other than english, Islam may mean many things,
but in English, Islam refers to a religion

In English Deen = religion

You repeat and seem unfamiliar with the process of identifying sound argument.

You say,

"Madhab" is religion. <- Premise 1
"Deen" is not "Madhab". <- Premise 2

Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English. <- Your argument, conclusion

Again not my words, those are your words not mine. nope

Not only are you making up your own definitions, you also ascribe conclusions to me!
I'm a big boy I can speak for myself! I don't need you to draw conclusions for me!

There is no need for further discussion since you don't understand proper reasoning. It is just a dogma.

Okay, you don't understand "Critical Thinking" and how to use proper reasoning.

You prefer the traditional thinking method, the dogmatic thinking method.

Understood! handshake

You're never going to change my mind by repeating irrelevant premises and throwing false assumptions. How about giving me a logical argument that might persuade me to understand?

Ibrahim was not a Jew <- <- Ibrahim has no religion, so as Muhammad. Nonsectarian.
nor a Christian http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
but he was (an) upright (man) <- showing a great concern for what is right, fair and truthful way
a Muslim <- Muslim = an upright man - a Muslim is defined by the above ayat
and he was not one of the polytheists <- Sectarianism
(367) Concern with right/wrong in religious matters - 3030-32

Why Muhammad was not a Jew or Christian?

Did he reject Allah's books?

God bless peace

muslims

There is no 'word of Allah', just as there is no 'hand of Allah' or 'face of Allah'.

These are metaphorical.

Salam

You are diverting to another issue.

What happens to your argument/conclusion?

What are the premises to counter Sura 112?

Human beings understood Allah as God, among other gods. <- My Premise 1
Surah 112 said Allah is not equivalent to "God(s)" <- My Premise 2
(One... Nor is there to Him any equivalent)

Therefore, Allah is God. (among other gods?) <- Nazzam's argument, conclusion (flaw)

Peace

La Illah Ila Allah
There is no god, there is only Allah.

Nazzam

Therefore, Allah is God. (among other gods?) <- Nazzam's argument, conclusion (flaw)

Putting words in my mouth.

And I am not diverting to another issue. I am showing ur terminology is flawed and so is your reasoning.

As for ur question, it has already been answered.

Have a nice day.

Nazzam

Highlight above is from me.

96,

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

How do you interpret, just for example, the above verse among many others regarding the word of ALLAAH?

Peace,
Khalil

Salam Khalil,

For you too the same answer;

It is metaphorical, just as 'hand of God' is.

Have a nice day.

muslims

As for ur question, it has already been answered.

Salam

It has already been answered?

Sorry, I don't understand.

What are the premises to counter Sura 112?

What Allah means when He says "Nor is there to Him any equivalent"

Does it mean Allah is equivalent to the same category of gods?

How many gods can you compare with Allah?
(make Allah equivalent for comparison)

Peace

Exactly! (read here, Why Allah is not God?)

To claim Allah is "God" means to set in our mind that there is God in Islam, God in Christianity, God in Hinduism, God in Buddhism... and Allah is one of those Gods, the only one true God.

Is this Shirk?

Nor is there to Him any equivalent <- including the concept of "God", it is not equivalent!
(1124)

hawk99

Peace hawk99

You are even making claims that the English translation is more accurate than the Qur'an, and without any valid reasons.

Again, your words not mine nope

hawk99 Protest on the word madhab as religion, and relying on the English translation is accurate than the Arabic Qur'an

I never used the word madhab. nope

Peace hawk99
Arabic is a "language other than English".

True

Therefore and according to you, "Islam may mean many things" in Arabic language.

No, a clear misunderstanding of what I said or inferred nope

hawk99 You repeat on the importance of English translation over the Arabic Qur'an

I'm losing my mind here! nope

Is this one of your hangups? Here I misquoted myself

"If you all are referring to a language other than english, Islam may mean many things,
but in English, Islam refers to a religion"

I should have said,

If you are referring to languages other than English, Islam may be translated
differently, but in English, Islam refers to a religion" emphasis on
but in English, Islam refers to a religion" I hope this will help you understand
no offense intended

You're never going to change my mind

I believe this to be true.

God bless

peace

muslims

Salam hawk99,

No offense intended but nothing you said so far is an argument or make sense. It is merely a blank denial, shifting one issue to the other and deriving a conclusion without any valid reasons. Closed.

God bless.

Allah never asked me to believe in the translation.

There is only one Qur'an, and it is in Arabic. It is not in English.

In other words, your conclusion is irrelevant to the Deen of Islam. It is not Islam, and no real Muslim should be bothered to answer what is the true meaning of the Qur'an in the English language.

Therefore, If you wish to believe the English Qur'an, no one is stopping you. One thing for sure, Allah only accepts Deen of Islam, and not Religion (Madhab) of Islam (385).

an Arabic Qur'an
without any deviance
that they might become righteous
(392

kgwithnob

Salam Khalil,

For you too the same answer;

It is metaphorical, just as 'hand of God' is.

Have a nice day.

I do agree with you on "hand of GOD" or " face of GOD", but word of GOD cannot be treated as metaphoric because time and time again The Qur'aan says that it is revealed in the manifest Arabic language. I mean in Arabic words. The prophet, pbuh was receiving the verses in his own language, in Arabic words and wrote them down in Arabic and recited them to his people in Arabic words. What is metaphoric about that? ALLAAH, swt spoke to Moses, pbuh. Was that conversation metaphoric too?

Peace,
Khalil

hawk99

Salam hawk99,

No offense intended but nothing you said so far is an argument or make sense. It is merely a blank denial, shifting one issue to the other and deriving a conclusion without any valid reasons. Closed.

The language barrier between us is too much to overcome.

God bless

peace

sword_of_tashayyu

Utter ignorance, The Prophet (sawa) is fallible, Companions are fallible but their compilation is Perfect, hahahaha brickwall

Nazzam

Utter ignorance, The Prophet (sawa) is fallible, Companions are fallible but their compilation is Perfect, hahahaha brickwall

Twofold answer

Protecting the quran is done by God, not by the prophet or 'companions'
Your view of history is false.

Nazzam

I do agree with you on "hand of GOD" or " face of GOD", but word of GOD cannot be treated as metaphoric because time and time again The Qur'aan says that it is revealed in the manifest Arabic language. I mean in Arabic words. The prophet, pbuh was receiving the verses in his own language, in Arabic words and wrote them down in Arabic and recited them to his people in Arabic words. What is metaphoric about that? ALLAAH, swt spoke to Moses, pbuh. Was that conversation metaphoric too?

Peace,
Khalil

Salam

You are mistaken.

As I said; everything regarding God in the quran is metaphorical. The same counts for 'speech'. As I said before, the quran informs us it is 'inspired', it is not dictated. God never spoke to Moses literally, there is no change in Gods sunna. The 'conversation' was inspired.

The prophet wasn't 'receiving' verses in his own language literally (although 'receiving' means 'qabbala' in Arabic, the word used in the quran to describe this is 'nazzala', which means 'send down' and is not literal), the quran was reveiled to him by inspiration. The fact the prophet uttered it in Arabic, and the fact the quran describes itself as a revelation in Arabic, is because the prophets brains were adjusted to Arabic. Reveiling the inspired message to the prophet, made it to be uttered in Arabic, so that he and his people would understand.

In 4164, kallama llahu musa takliman, is often translated as 'God truly spoke to Moses', but that is not correctly translated. A verb followed by a noun in the accusative which is based on the verb has the meaning of emphasis in Arabic, not of materialization. Kallama llahu musa takliman, means 'God spoke extensively to Moses'. A comparison often made in Arabic grammars, is 'darabahu darban', which means 'he beat him hard', not 'he beat him a beating'.

Another reason why this can not be literal speech, is because it must be in consistency with the rest of the quran.

In the same verse, the verb 'qassa' is used in relation to all prophets, which means 'narrate', but this can not be translated literally. According to the traditionalist view you have adopted, God did literally speak to Moses, but then if you want to be consistent in your methodology, you will have to apply this 'qassa' (and qala in 2019 and 2036) to all prophets. If you do this, the dogmatic view of Moses can not stand ground anymore, because he will not be unique in being adressed directly by God (which never happened).

In 2011, 2830 and 278 the word 'nadaa' is used, which means 'call out'. A place is named too, from where this calling occured. This too, is metaphorical. Reason?

In 2010 to 2014 it is implied what form this 'calling out' has. Read carefully

2010 When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."
2011 And when he came to it, he was called (nudiya), "O Moses,
2012 Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
2013 And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed (yuwha).
2014 Indeed, I am Allah . There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.

There is more peculiar going on with this 'speech'. It came out of 'fire', and it happened in a 'sacred valley'.

In 2830, this 'calling' is repeated, from yet another peculiar place

2830 But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds."

Sacred or blessed spots, a perceived fire (but was it?), in combination with a 'call' within the context of revelation... are all the ingredients which confirm this is metaphorical.

In 7117, 2663, 1087 and 2077, a message is 'inspired' to Moses, which is uttered as a direct command.

In 7144 Moses is made clear God has chosen him with His messages and words, of which 'words' is of coarse the same as when it is meant to describe 'word of God' regarding to other prophets. Why the differentiation between message and words? This is comparable with the words 'book' and 'wisdom'. Word is an attribute of the message. Its used to stress the fact that Moses had a book revealed (by inspiration of coarse).

One traditionalist dogmatic interpretation of one single verb, violates the strict monotheistic concept of the divine in islam.

If kallama when related to God is speaking as we know it, then you may tell me where you draw the line concerning all vocabulary. You will not be able to.

You need to continue your 'reprogramming' of traditionalist theological influence on your reasoning; these are the dangers of the contamination of quranic terminology by the corruption industry of the 9th century onward.

sword_of_tashayyu

Protecting the quran is done by God, not by the prophet or 'companions'
Your view of history is false.

So you will come up with me that verse We have revealed it and We shall safeguard it?

Explain to me how Allah safeguards His message?

sword_of_tashayyu

Allow me to destroy you through your strongest point peace

diamantinehoneybunch

Allow me to destroy you through your strongest point peace

You don't destroy anyone on here.
You are just destroying yourself by committing idolatry.

sword_of_tashayyu

You don't destroy anyone on here.
You are just destroying yourself by committing idolatry.

Hahahaha..i asked you how did Allah protect his message?

diamantinehoneybunch

Hahahaha..i asked you how did Allah protect his message?

If you truly believe in God, you would have known that God preserves His Message with His Power.
He is the Most Powerful.

muslims

The language barrier between us is too much to overcome.

God bless

peace

Salam,

It is true. Sorry, I don't understand "dogmatic thinking methodology" and the ideology of "English Qur'an" as something truly Islamic.

an Arabic Qur'an
without any deviance

Allah never asked me to believe in the translation.

There is only one Qur'an, and it is in Arabic. It is not in English.

Peace