Abortion?
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One of the main issues on the table is whether getting pregnant is a trivial matter or not.
If it is a trivial matter then ending a pregnancy should also be a trivial matter.
If it is not then there is a problem.If, for some reasons, men and women were given their sexual organs to reproduce. And for some reason men and women engaged in such reproduction acts. And for some reason the woman got pregnant. What went wrong ? Or should we say what went right ?
And if for some reason, men and women ignored all of what they did and started arguing whether the baby should be delivered or not, how is that possible ? do they have the right to do so ? Of course they can do whatever they want, or maybe the state where they live gave them the right to do so, but is it a truthful thing to do ? To ignore everything you've done and argue whether the baby in a womb (which is supposed to deliver a baby) should even deliver it ?
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In 4.1 God orders us ittaqw Allah... wa ittaqw a arham. En 4.34 He imposes on men to be qawwamoon for women, to take care of them, support them.
If those who follow Qur'an do not realise that the only way for them to treat well what could be a future new born is to treat well the woman who would bring it to life, then all blabber about poor zygotes, fetuses or embryos is sheer hypocrisy. You cannot get to the result of conception before birth except through the woman, and you can only be good to them being good to the woman.
Any other way is not condoned by God nor enjoined nor useful.
Male can think as much as they want and should do so how to behave to lead a pure and respectful life and consort with as much knowledge as possible of the person they are consorting with and then follow 4.1 and 4.34, beyond that thre is nothing they can do concerning the fruit of conception. Whatever they have contracted with the woman they consort with and divorce if there is no agreement on what the duties of each are.
In factit isperfectly useless to sermon ad nauseam on abortion while the whole morality of the society is en shambles. It is an exercisa in futility and again an exercise in hypocrisy. You cannot have good fruit from a bad tree. If society is filthy, what do you expect? Loads of miracles precisely from the most battered part of that society.
There are hundreds of thousands of women kept in brothels in civilised Europe not to speak in the countries where civilised men go for sex tourism, or plain tourism but counting on sex.
Do you expect no abortions from that kind of set up? Those same who use the brothels and travel are the same men we meet in the streets or at work or anywhere. They are not in the brothels or on tourism and then come out or back and turn into another person. They are the same. So again ?what do you expect?
You are starting the house from the roof.
Fantasy is a great thing, but we should distinguish what is fantasy from what is not fantasy.
Ittaqw Allah wa ittaqw al arham... just think about it.
Salaam
Salaam
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Peace Noon.
This is your understanding of abortion?
This is abosolituly about abortion i.e. Intentionally murdering of the unborn and why not answer any questions posted earlier?Does abortion not also mean getting rid of a "dead foetus" inside the womb?Why not? What is the difference between miscarriage and abortion?
peace good logic,
Miscarriage result of accident etc., not intentional.
Abortion the deliberate termination/killing of baby.
E.g. Edip Y?ksel tells less than 6 month?s pregnant woman OK to punch her 19 times in the stomach.Now your turn, (4) simple yes/no questions were posted earlier; can please stay on topic and answer?
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Let?s stay on topic in context; who does "him" referring to and was "he" born yet?1922 so carry she him so withdrew she with him place of remote of 1923 so approaches her the pains of childbirth to trunk the date palm said (f) O wish I dead before this and be I ignored forgotten of
Likewise in context whom does walad/child refer to and was he born yet?
347 said (f) lord whence being to me walad/child and not touched me human said like such the god created what willed when decree directive of so merely speaketh to it be so being
Likewise in Arabic what phrases means to get a woman pregnant according to Lane?
He made her to be the mother of children.
He made the girl to be the mother of a child.
He rendered her pregnant; got her with child.A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one; and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings; of any kind
Likewise do unborn inherit e.g. man leaves pregnant wife gender unknown until birth?
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when reach they of the marriage so if perceive you among them rational of so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs
410 indeed the ones eating wealth the bereaved injustice of merely eating in interior body theirs fire of
411 instructed you the god in awldikum/children yours
412 so if be for you walad/child so to them the eight -
Am I hearing this right?
Women should look into all aspects before they get pregnant to make sure every pregnancy delivers a baby in safe and pristine condition?
No going back from which moment?
In fact why stop there?
Why not go back to the other cause,yes men!!! Or the woman just decides when to get pregnant and she says "B" and it is?!!!!The men get away with it scot free!I mean why not go back to when the "fluid" is still in the man? Surely it is murder to dispose of that fluid recklessly?
I repeat again you have to trust mothers! In fact you need to respect and trust mothers. Yes respect women,treat them right support them with pregnancies ,look after them,then normality will follow by instinct.
If you ask me, the majority of problem women have are linked to men . May be the other way around occasionally.
But I think I am expecting too much of certain men?
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Brother Noon.
The verses you quoted,according to my understanding of Qoran,have nothing to do with forced "abortion". I use the word -forced- as in all situations,there are exceptions.Apart from that,I have answered all your points in my last post.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Brother Noon.
The verses you quoted,according to my understanding of Qoran,have nothing to do with forced "abortion". I use the word -forced- as in all situations,there are exceptions.Apart from that,I have answered all your points in my last post.
GOD bless you.
Peace.brother good logic, please answer the 4 questions posted YES/NO for the 4th time?
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Brother Noon,I do not agree with your take on the verses.
I explained my position.
That should answer your 4 questions.
If you have any verses on consequences of "abortion" in Qoran list them,then we can continue the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Brother Noon,I do not agree with your take on the verses.
I explained my position.
That should answer your 4 questions.brother good logic, simple Yes/No please -- why are you afraid to answer (this goes for everyone)?
- who does "him" refer to and do you agree a woman/anyone can kill/abort him at anytime during pregnancy?
1922 so carry she him so withdrew she with him place of remote of 1923 so approaches her the pains of childbirth to trunk the date palm said (f) O wish I dead before this and be I ignored forgotten of
- who does walad/child refer to and was he born yet -- yes or no?
347 said (f) lord whence being to me walad/child and not touched me human said like such the god created what willed when decree directive of so merely speaketh to it be so being
- do these phrases in Arabic mean to get a woman pregnant -- yes or no?
He made her to be the mother of children.
He made the girl to be the mother of a child.
He rendered her pregnant; got her with child.A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one; and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings; of any kind
- do unborn children inherit e.g. man leaves pregnant wife -- yes or no?
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when reach they of the marriage so if perceive you among them rational of so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs ....410 indeed the ones eating wealth the bereaved injustice of merely eating in interior body theirs fire of ...411 instructed you the god in awldikum/children yours...412 so if be for you walad/child so to them the eight
Waiting patiently for answers -- anyone please?
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- who does "him" refer to and do you agree a woman/anyone can kill/abort him at anytime during pregnancy?
1922 so carry she him so withdrew she with him place of remote of 1923 so approaches her the pains of childbirth to trunk the date palm said (f) O wish I dead before this and be I ignored forgotten of
- who does walad/child refer to and was he born yet -- yes or no?
347 said (f) lord whence being to me walad/child and not touched me human said like such the god created what willed when decree directive of so merely speaketh to it be so being
- do these phrases in Arabic mean to get a woman pregnant -- yes or no?
He made her to be the mother of children.
He made the girl to be the mother of a child.
He rendered her pregnant; got her with child.A child, son, daughter, youngling, or young one; and children, sons, daughters, offspring, young, or younglings; of any kind
- do unborn children inherit e.g. man leaves pregnant wife -- yes or no?
46 and test ye of the bereaved until when reach they of the marriage so if perceive you among them rational of so deliver ye of to them wealth theirs ....410 indeed the ones eating wealth the bereaved injustice of merely eating in interior body theirs fire of ...411 instructed you the god in awldikum/children yours...412 so if be for you walad/child so to them the eight
Waiting patiently for answers -- anyone please?
These verses have zero of injunction towards or overall anything related to abortion. First quote is about a story of a woman who beared a child, from immaculate conception. I am however unsure if it is speaking of John or someone else in chapter 19 verse 22.
The second one is clearly about Mary and her exprience of immaculate conception.
Immaculate conception has nothing to do with what is discussed in a thread. This topic is about abortion and surely no one has a second thought on wether or not immaculate conception is subject to abortion, because it is clearly God's command and will, according to the verses. The topic is about abortion which results from an actual intercourse, not immaculate conception.
Therefore, I am not sure what Noon is trying to accomplish by repeating the same meaningless questions.
I also have a theory why Qur'an does not state crystal clear on abortion, because if it did, we would also know exceptionally about the issue of nafs/soul/ruh etc. But we do not know, these are quite vague not only in Qur'an but the scriptures. This is somethign a man can achieve from yaers of contemplation. That is why we are not told "do not kill an unborn for it has a soul in it and a path".
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Therefore, I am not sure what Noon is trying to accomplish by repeating the same meaningless questions.
Only to point out who cannot comprehend simple definition of child.
1731 and not thou slay ye of awldakum/children yours
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Only to point out who cannot comprehend simple definition of child.
1731 and not thou slay ye of awldakum/children yours
Good point. Like I said, all these pro- or anti abortion debates are actually just seeking an answer "can we have irresponsible free unprotected passionate sex without consequences?"
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Peace Noon.
Your questions are irrelevant here. Nothing to do with "abortion".
The point you are making is"every woman who gets pregnant knows that she will have a child at the end of the pregnancy" That is logical. Did we say those pregnant think it will be an elephant and they abort it?
However the verses do not talk about abortion.
Can you see that you are not sticking to the topic ?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Did we say those pregnant think it will be an elephant and they abort it?
Peace, are you "good" logic?
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Way to trivialize ending a life...."the soul is just gonna be reset somewhere else" lol
Do you think a woman being pregnant has the right to question whether or not she should deliver a baby considering outside factors like maybe an economical crisis, a war, hunger ?
As far as I'm concerned, these questions need to be asked before getting pregnant. and how many kids were born in war and other terrible consequences ? Were they better off to not live at all ?If there is a sparkle of life right where it should be (in a womb), it should be delivered because that is what it means, generally. When a woman is pregnant we think of a new life, we do not think of a new death, and we do not think of how bad life can turn out for that child (and we do not really think of a miscarriage or some other accidents). We do not think if the child will be a good child with a good life. Life just happens. Someone else kept saying here that "an unborn child is better than a child in an orphanage" and that is completely not right to say.
We do not have the right to fast-forward into the child's life. We cannot question whether the child should be given the right to live or not, specially if all the signs are there for a new life, and that is (generally) what a pregnant woman means.
If there is some "abort mission" button somewhere that I'm not aware of, I don't know, but generally for me all I can see is if there is a pregnant woman there is a new life. That's a reason enough to let it be delivered. Inspite of the unfavorable outside factors or the woman completely changing her mind. Therefore marriage is a sacred bond, and religions were restricting men/women interactions, perhaps in order not to fall into this shit storm of "I got pregnant but I don't want it".
It is a good thing to argue about. If you take a look around you find that an immense amount of children grow up under miserable conditions, so miserable that most of them die and those who survive do not live any particular lives either. It is not so difficult to justify an abortion then for the sake of being human.
You have to think beyond your immediate sphere before you ytter something.
A child which grows up under insecure conditions with missing/neglectful parents may very well grow up to be one of those broken souls who wander around on Earth. It is then better that those who really want to have a child have them.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
It is a good thing to argue about. If you take a look around you find that an immense amount of children grow up under miserable conditions, so miserable that most of them die and those who survive do not live any particular lives either. It is not so difficult to justify an abortion then for the sake of being human.
World will always be a challenge, most people live beyond the line of poverty, not everyone lives by Sweden standards. So if a single irresponsible family commits abortion and won't let an uborn to become a poor soul that will wander the Earth, it will probably be born somewhere on the steets of India.
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World will always be a challenge, most people live beyond the line of poverty, not everyone lives by Sweden standards. So if a single irresponsible family commits abortion and won't let an uborn to become a poor soul that will wander the Earth, it will probably be born somewhere on the steets of India.
That is true though, you cannot evade your destiny which is determined by who you were and if you made yourself miserable so you shall also be miserable.
This is why there will always be misery, for as long as mankind does not improve.
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So if I make myself "miserable" I shall come back as"miserable" somewhere else?
I tell you what Man Of Faith ,I shall make myself "Stand outside" ,you would then say that I shall come back as "Out Standing"!!!!That philosophy does not make sense to me brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
That is true though, you cannot evade your destiny which is determined by who you were and if you made yourself miserable so you shall also be miserable.
This is why there will always be misery, for as long as mankind does not improve.
Depends on what you understand as misery. Say someone lives a very miserable lonely and depressed life. So if he/she somehow does better in this life, in the next life he might be driving Ferrari and have a lot of friends, women and money? But isn't it a vicious circle? All people are different, most people are not believers or righteous muslims, does not matter if they are miserable or 'happy', which are in itself quite flexible terms. Living depressed and 'miserable' life can be as devastating and pointless as living a life in happiness and full of joy.
So if I make myself "miserable" I shall come back as"miserable" somewhere else?
I tell you what Man Of Faith ,I shall make myself "Stand outside" ,you would then say that I shall come back as "Out Standing"!!!!It depends on what you mean by "stand outside", if that means being faint-hearted then that is indeed miserable. From what I understand the Scripture is all about teaching it, even if you are surrounded by the group of ISIS soldiers, you kinda still have "the last say".
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Makaveli,What? Are you serious? Standing outside?
I mean it is so cold to "stand outside" at this time of year(wrong thread for the shape of the earth,you know the And earth turning for day/night/seasons...) Bearing in mind I was the first to complain about the heat this last summer!
I am not going outside until the temperature is above my age outside.To stay on topic,here is my message for this thread
BOYCOTT male OPPRESSORS!!!.Anyway,you know the other thread about talking ants,well here are talking cows and of course"standing outside"
Two cows are standing outside in the field,one cow said to the other"MOOOOO".
The other cow said"pretty much the same thing-MOOOO TOO-.There you go brother,pretty much three threads in one!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace