Abortion?
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Salaam,
Can anyone answer this
If a woman is raped and finds out that she is pregnant, does that mean she is obliged to keep the embryo until she gives birth to the fetus?
What would the society think of the child born because of rape?I am not asking the questions because I support abortion. I don't support abortion because it is so selfish especially when it is done by married couples or unmarried love couples who commit fornication/adultery. But what about rape victims?
Sorry for asking this.
Regards,
YulianaI have to believe that God would take the rape victim's opinion to account, as the distress can cause the growing baby to die anyway, in a much more painful way for both mother and baby. It is a form of double victimisation, as technically the rapist would have an equal right to see the child, perhaps in some cases even a stronger right than even the mother who would still be reliving the pain of being brutally sexually attacked, and this is just insane.
Unfortunately, the anti-abortion crowd don't seem to care about this and would be quite happy to see the mother die of suicide than have an abortion in early term.
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If a woman is raped and finds out that she is pregnant, does that mean she is obliged to keep the embryo until she gives birth to the fetus?
In this unfortunate case, aborting the fetus would be a justified option She shouldn't be forced to carry the rapist's child (against her will), or be held responsible for a crime she's not guilty of. She's the victim here. And GOD knows best.
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Peace Aamer
The answer for your question "Where does the Quran's stand on abortion? " could well be expressed with
"Why do one need to abort?"
) Good one. Why we need that.
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God knows why anybody, always a woman, would need or not need to abort. God knows. Men do not. They may be proud enough to think that they are judges. God in the Qur'an does not state such a thing but keeps the relation between the matrices and Himself for Himself. We are overstepping gravely when we intrude in what God has kept for Himself.
Salaam
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The issue really comes down to the fact of 'when does life begin' and whether or not you have the right to 'intervene and terminate that said/possible life'.
? We learn that God has made life sacred
"Now let man but think from what he is created?
?We have honoured the Children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours above a great part of Our Creation.
"Do not kill yourselves, for verily Allah has been to you most merciful"
"...and (Allah) is the one, who gave you life, then shall He ordain you to die, then shall He give you your life again, truly mankind is ungrateful"
"...Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does He command you, so that you may learn wisdom" (6151).? It is the woman's body and therefore she should be free to do what she deems necessary in any situation
Pro-abortion/Pro-choice will say that what is in the womb is lesser in value and therefore can be treated differently and can be done with how the mother wishes as it is dependent on the mother for all things.
I do not agree on placing a lesser value on what is in the womb. I feel that this view is held firstly because people do not believe in the one true god / creator. Furthermore, it?s easy to treat the what is in the womb differently because you do not see it, nor can it speak or have a say.
God is our creator and to god belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. We are dependent on god for everything; we are not independent. How much of your life or body is yours when you are dependent on god for every ounce of sustenance?"The one who has created me, He will guide me
"He is the one who feeds me and gives me to drink
"And if I am sick, he is the one who cures me
"And the one who will make me die and then bring me to life
?And the one whom I hope will forgive my mistakes on the Day of Judgement? The foetus is not a human being yet; it cannot live outside the uterus on its own.
Just as god has created the mother, god has also created what is in the womb.
"We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then from a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed ... and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes".
We see that the process of creation is described as having stages. God created the universe in a staged process. We know that all animals have a gestation period which has a known process. Cells have a stage by stage process of replication, as does DNA. More specifically, god is in control of the process. We know that god does as it wills, that god is capable of all things and that for god all things are easy. If what is inside the womb is a creation of god, then clearly you cannot disregard it or relegate it to an insignificant level and do as you wish with it.
There is a clear process outlined by god for a good reason, and I believe that this indicates that the whole process and what is created during this time is of great significance. I believe the detailing of the creation of the human being by god is to not only meant to highlight the significance of the process but to make us ponder on just about everything which god has created and the power which god possesses which enables it to create such things!
? Letting a baby be born into an unwanted home is cruel and could lead to later neglect.
? Many foster homes and orphanages are beyond capacity, putting a child into the foster care system would way even heavier on already scarce resources.
? All children should be wanted and born into homes that are prepared to love and care for them, emotionally and financially.
The above arguments are not valid as god makes it clear that god is the provider.
You shall not kill your children due to fear of poverty. We provide for them, as well as for you. Killing them is a gross offense.
God makes it clear that not only does God provide for the child but God also provides for the parent(s) ? All are taken care of by god.? Fear of death for mother if continuing with pregnancy in late stages.
This is interesting to me and I would appreciate further discussion on this. God says that only god knows the appointed term of each soul. So fearing that you may die is not the same as knowing that you will die, and therefore just because you fear or think that you may die does not mean that you actually will die. So if you terminate the pregnancy to save the mother?s life, then it would mean that you believe that death is certain. ON the other hand, the medical opinion is that death is likely if the pregnancy continues and thus the reason why most pregnancies are terminated at very late stages. So how do you reconcile the two matters? Does not terminating the pregnancy on the opinion that you will certainly die, contradict the word of god that only god knows when every soul will ?taste death??
? Cases of rape or incest, a baby could remind the woman of the horrible event she had experienced
This is where my view changes, maybe.
Rape is a gross injustice. I see rape as a type of oppression, and god has said that oppression is worse than killing. I think having a system in place to prevent/terminate the pregnancy would be acceptable as it would be part of seeking justice for the women. To carry to full term a child conceived through an act of violence is incredibly traumatising.
On the other hand, God says that no soul is burdened with more than it can handle. So would terminating the pregnancy concede that you cannot handle the situation, thus contradicting what god says about you being able to handle it?
Also, regarding the raping of women by the people of Pharaoh
And We had saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to kill your children and rape your women; and in that was a great test from your lord.
The punishment meted out by the people of the pharaoh here is clearly described as tests by god for the Children of Israel. Therefore is rape, and the resulting pregnancy, also a test from God?
? Family planning ? getting pregnant when trying not to get pregnant
Contraception is not condemned in AQ ? unlike in Catholicism. However, not all contraception prevents conception 100%; they all have flaws. So what happens when you become pregnant? Well I believe that it comes back to the fact that god creates what it wills. God?s command is ?be and it is?. God says not to kill the children out of fear of poverty for god will provide for all. Therefore to seek to terminate the pregnancy would be an act of aggression against gods will. A story of my own I knew a guy once whose dad got the ?snip? as a means of contraception, and his wife still fell pregnant. So the guy ended up having a little sister! Was it not god?s will for that child to be born?
? My conclusion
Judging by what has been sent down it is made clear to us that life and death is a matter for god and that, apart from the taking of a life in the path of justice, we have absolutely no say, nor any power, over life and death and who lives and who dies, epitomised by the fact that we cannot even take our own life in any circumstance.
To intervene and terminate the process of human creation (abortion) would be a gross act of aggression against God?s will to create what he wills. This includes, abortions performed in the first trimester. Foetal development in the first trimester includes- A primitive face takes form with large dark circles for eyes, the mouth, lower jaw, and throat are developing. Blood cells are taking shape, and circulation will begin. I cannot believe that society is OK with intervening and destroying this creature. How much more 'human' does something have to be for people to draw the line and say no more after this?
brickwall
Peace
Al.
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Salaam,
I think Quran is talking about children that have been born already. In the past it was difficult to abort the pregnancy early on anyway due to lack of medical knowledge. So only way to abort was by killing the fetus by jumping or beating the belly hard which I doubt any mentally sane woman would do.
Either way, it is emotionally touching to decide to have an abortion and I think basically no woman does it just for fun. It is a living being inside the woman's body after all.
It is a morally difficult question, but I think the choice is still up to the mother. It is she who answers in front of God and no other person.
There is also a question at what stage of the pregnancy. Getting rid of a very early fetus is not more horrible than killing sperms or a female egg. Yes, in the early stage it is not more aware than a sperm or an egg. It is just autonomous development taking place.
I cannot find anything which talks against abortion in the early stage of pregnancy at least. It is when most abortions take place anyway. The fetus is simply not much than a combination of cells growing.
Still I think most people decide not to have an abortion if there is no good cause. Rape victims have a good excuse to abort immediately, the mother might even mistreat the the child due to trauma. I cannot even understand someone who argues against this.
But also unwanted pregnancies, especially when the man leaves the woman for various reasons could be a valid reason. There are a lot of responsibilities when you have a baby and some people are unable to handle that duty.
There are however some modern issues with the technology to be able to recognize which gender the unborn baby has and some people may decide to abort on this basis. It is a moral problem indeed. But still it is the person have abortion who is responsible in front of God for this choice and not some people who propagate anti-abortion policies.
I think I went logically to the bottom of this issue. So killing a fetus in an early stage is not worse than wasting sperms or dropping the unfertilized egg during menstruation. However, the longer it goes on the pregnancy the bigger the feeling of guilt is as it is killing something that is alive however with a questionable self-awareness. Abortion late in pregnancy is dangerous to the life of the woman and most countries allow it only under special conditions, and then it is not a matter of religion.
Killing a born baby is illegal in all countries that I know of and is a logical law. It is also illegal in God's system as this is where God's verse ticks in.
Where we should draw the limit of crime against nature is difficult though. How late in pregnancy is morally acceptable?
Best is to let the fetus be after it starts to develop its brain and autonomous body organs I think in my opinion. This is when I believe the unborn baby gets some of its awareness and can possibly feel things. However, this is my personal understanding and might not be true.
God bless you
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I'm sure no one disagrees that abortion for the sake of the mother's health (including her mental health) is morally acceptable if there is a risk of serious damage to the mother And I believe the same goes for abortion where a pregnancy is the result of a crime (such as rape, incest, or child abuse) After all {No one should be burdened with more than they can bear No mother (or woman giving birth) shall be made to suffer because of her child} 2233 However, abortion for social reasons, such as pauperism, is unequivocally forbidden in the Quran (6151; 1731). This is my understanding, and GOD knows best.
SLM
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{No one should be burdened with more than they can bear No mother (or woman giving birth) shall be made to suffer because of her child} 2233
Thanks for this verse. I didn't know about it. Helps with understanding the extreme cases.
@ Man of Faith.
Awareness is an interesting concept.
You say that it is a lump of cells with no awareness of anything. But surely they're must be a level of awareness because otherwise how could it all happen? During menstruation the female body is active in preparing for the next fertile opportunity to get pregnant. Is that not awareness of the body, especially considering and that it is a natural process which the woman has no control over what's so ever??
An example of awareness Take a person who is fully awake and a person is fully asleep. It is fair to say that the former would have much more awareness than the latter, correct? What differentiates their level of awareness is the state in which they are in. By your logic it would mean that harm inflicted upon that person who is sleeping would be lesser in degree because they were in a lesser state of awareness due to being in a state of sleep, compared to harm being inflicted upon the person who is fully wake because they are completely 'aware' of themselves, their surroundings and of what is happening.
The stage of Fertilization The sperm will typically meet the egg in the lower quadrant of a fallopian tube and start to swarm around the egg. The ovum is covered by a protective field known as the zona pellucida, and in order for fertilization to take place, sperm cells must find a keyhole (or receptor) to unlock the zona pellucida, gain entrance, and burrow their way to the oocyte, the genetic core of the ovum. Only one sperm will connect with the oocyte, precipitating genetic combination - signaling that fertilization has just taken place. With fertilization, the ovum becomes the zygote or embryo and now passes through complex phases of cell division and differentiation. You have just conceived!
All the things that are involved in the above process have to be aware of what is happening, or else how can they participate in it and continue the process?? The sperm has to be 'aware' in some sort of form of what is happening otherwise how would it fertilise the egg?? It's not awareness in the way we living breathing humans understand and know it to be. Human creation is not like building a car or a house, because what is developed is not an inanimate object, it is living. And as it is a living creature, it's building blocks are also living. Out body is made of cells which are alive- they require sustenance to stay alive and perform all its functions.
Your words 'Best is to let the fetus be after it starts to develop its brain and autonomous body organs I think in my opinion'.
By the sixth week of foetal development the heart is formed and is pumping blood and by the seventh week the head develops.
Is the level of awareness still low and insignificant of the foetus which has a head with developing facial features and a heart pumping blood?Foetal development first trimester. http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112
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Salaam,
How to define awareness is a difficult thing, but a pounding heart is not what I consider being aware. It is life on the other hand. I wrote about when the fetus has some sort of brain function and is not a collection of cells. I do not advocate abortion as an optimal solution but a way to solve a dilemma in someone's life. The abortion I was talking about was when a woman in an exposed situation becomes pregnant and there can be extensive trauma due to this. The body is of course amazing, but a heart is just a muscle which works like a pump.
But like I said, most women abort relatively early when the fetus is limited in growth and it is a difficult decision for most. Later abortions pose a great health risk and are normally not performed.
The head might have begun to develop, but brain functionality is doubtfully active by that stage. It is not operational yet.
Well. We can discuss which level of awareness we are talking about. I consider that true consciousness comes long after birth and the first activity is just based on reflexes or at best semi-consciousness.
Abortion is no easy thing and lots of people are against this practice, but making abortion illegal is also causing a lot of suffering while abortion in practice when it comes to "killing" the fetus in an early stage can hardly cause much suffering to the life that is in the woman's uterus. It does not have enough bodily functions to register any harm. It is not aware of this as it is not developed enough yet, hence why I wrote it is not much worse than wasting sperms or eggs.
God bless you
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Abortion is not Disneyland nor a plessure trip. It is cruel and irreponsible to pound on women because they may decide to abort. God enjoins all people to honour the wombs. Honouring the wombs means that no woman would ever feel conflicted and dreading because of becoming a mother. That no woman would find herself in the dire strait of having to choose between feeding the children she already has or not feeding them because she is taken up with a new pregnancy. That no woman should fear that a baby or a new baby would put her more in the power ao a man that may be mistreating her. That she won't have to prostitue herself to feed achild or find nowhere to live or nowhere to go. That she won't be pointed out at as looser and an irresponsible person or a nuts for having a child. That a woman would always be sure that no matter what, as a mother she will be protected by her community and not insulted nor twatched as if she was a criminal, that she will be honoured as a mother, treated with respected and her freedom respected as something God ordered.
Society is hypocritical with mothers and women in general. Exacts as if women were their property but will not take care of them nor acknowledge their contribution. Those who worry so much about women not getting away with abortion, bark at the wrong tree and start the house with the roof. No. They must acknowledge that women do a sublime and demanding service to society and RESPECT THEM WITH UTMOST RESPECT, not watch over them as if they were contumanmcious kids, nor treat her always as a prospective lawbreaker and troublemaker. Society is too lucky that women still carry on having children, because society deals very arrogantly, very harshly, very pimpishly, very unfairly and unjsutly with women. they claim very much about abortion, but not even one of those who have written in this thread will admit that society and believers must honour the wombs and must safeguard first and foremost the honour and the freedom of women. And by honour I mean not to play continuously with it as if they always offered a ground for mistrust and should pass their exam of trusworthyness over and over. Society is not the owner of women, God is the owner of women and society and men and women are gravely trespassing when they make assaults, verbal or otherwise on the trustworthiness, nonguiltiness and moral honour fo women. This society that watches after women like a hounddog but does not much of its duties to them, does not deserve any consideration nor respect in return from their women nor that the women keep faith with their dirty minds, their moral bankrupty and their egotism. Such societies are indeed getting a gift of a deal and they do not deserve it.
Talk to God about it see what He says. We, present societies, get much better than we deserve. We do not want abortions? Well and good go about it the right way. If it is too much to expect, then it is better not to say anything and not to parade fake moralist grandstanding on abortion when all that is intended to do is patronize about what women should or should not do. Women o not need any of that, they are adults not toys nor dogs nor the property of anybody but the Mighty, Al Quddus, Ar-Rahman ar-rahim.
Say I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn (1) From the mischief of created things; (2) From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads; (3) From the mischief of those who practise malignant crafts; (4) And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy. (5)
Say I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind, (1) The King of Mankind, (2) The god of Mankind,- (3) From the mischief of the Whisperer, who withdraws, (4) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- (5) Among Jinns and among men. (6)
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
I hope you saw that I wrote in defense of women who decide to have an abortion?
God bless you
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Sorry, Man of faith, you indeed did, and you are usually generous in your thoughts. I think I was a bit carried away in the estimation of proportions. Sorry to you an to any other person I might have represented wrongly.
I am sorry that the whole thing about reproduction and males and females mission is being taken piecemeal and not as a whole and therefore any conclusion based on that piecemeal procedure will result in injustice and in futility. Nothing useful or good is likely to come of it. God gives resort to people to solve breaches within a marriage, for humans to pretend to rule on women reproductive behaviour ouside of those parameters are a challenge to God, who kept it for Himself. And a challenge to the own souls of those who would attempt to rule over things of which they have no command nor true knowledge.
Salaam
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Abortion is not Disneyland nor a plessure trip. It is cruel and irreponsible to pound on women because they may decide to abort. God enjoins all people to honour the wombs. Honouring the wombs means that no woman would ever feel conflicted and dreading because of becoming a mother. That no woman would find herself in the dire strait of having to choose between feeding the children she already has or not feeding them because she is taken up with a new pregnancy. That no woman should fear that a baby or a new baby would put her more in the power ao a man that may be mistreating her. That she won't have to prostitue herself to feed achild or find nowhere to live or nowhere to go. That she won't be pointed out at as looser and an irresponsible person or a nuts for having a child. That a woman would always be sure that no matter what, as a mother she will be protected by her community and not insulted nor twatched as if she was a criminal, that she will be honoured as a mother, treated with respected and her freedom respected as something God ordered.
Society is hypocritical with mothers and women in general. Exacts as if women were their property but will not take care of them nor acknowledge their contribution. Those who worry so much about women not getting away with abortion, bark at the wrong tree and start the house with the roof. No. They must acknowledge that women do a sublime and demanding service to society and RESPECT THEM WITH UTMOST RESPECT, not watch over them as if they were contumanmcious kids, nor treat her always as a prospective lawbreaker and troublemaker. Society is too lucky that women still carry on having children, because society deals very arrogantly, very harshly, very pimpishly, very unfairly and unjsutly with women. they claim very much about abortion, but not even one of those who have written in this thread will admit that society and believers must honour the wombs and must safeguard first and foremost the honour and the freedom of women. And by honour I mean not to play continuously with it as if they always offered a ground for mistrust and should pass their exam of trusworthyness over and over. Society is not the owner of women, God is the owner of women and society and men and women are gravely trespassing when they make assaults, verbal or otherwise on the trustworthiness, nonguiltiness and moral honour fo women. This society that watches after women like a hounddog but does not much of its duties to them, does not deserve any consideration nor respect in return from their women nor that the women keep faith with their dirty minds, their moral bankrupty and their egotism. Such societies are indeed getting a gift of a deal and they do not deserve it.
Talk to God about it see what He says. We, present societies, get much better than we deserve. We do not want abortions? Well and good go about it the right way. If it is too much to expect, then it is better not to say anything and not to parade fake moralist grandstanding on abortion when all that is intended to do is patronize about what women should or should not do. Women o not need any of that, they are adults not toys nor dogs nor the property of anybody but the Mighty, Al Quddus, Ar-Rahman ar-rahim.
Say I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn (1) From the mischief of created things; (2) From the mischief of Darkness as it overspreads; (3) From the mischief of those who practise malignant crafts; (4) And from the mischief of the envious one as he practises envy. (5)
Say I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind, (1) The King of Mankind, (2) The god of Mankind,- (3) From the mischief of the Whisperer, who withdraws, (4) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- (5) Among Jinns and among men. (6)
Salaam
Sorry, Man of faith, you indeed did, and you are usually generous in your thoughts. I think I was a bit carried away in the estimation of proportions. Sorry to you an to any other person I might have represented wrongly.
I am sorry that the whole thing about reproduction and males and females mission is being taken piecemeal and not as a whole and therefore any conclusion based on that piecemeal procedure will result in injustice and in futility. Nothing useful or good is likely to come of it. God gives resort to people to solve breaches within a marriage, for humans to pretend to rule on women reproductive behaviour ouside of those parameters are a challenge to God, who kept it for Himself. And a challenge to the own souls of those who would attempt to rule over things of which they have no command nor true knowledge.
Salaam
Having opposition or reservation towards abortion is not about hating or oppressing women. Having read through many pro-abortion arguments and opinion pieces, you seem to have a very 'doomsday' view not shared by the majority. For the most part, in the developed world at least, pro-abortion and pro-choice is about having free & unfettered access to abortion services all the time. Furthermore, at least in the developed world, for the most part those women do no want it because they fear that having a child might result in them having to prostitute themselves to provide for the child. No, they argue for the right to abort a pregnancy, due to the simple inconvenience it causes. Some women find having an abortion harrowing and stressful. Some women are perfectly okay and having an abortion does not impact them or affect them one bit.
Abortions will not help the women in less developed societies or those living in lower socio-economic strata. You want to help women and improve their lives, then they need education and access to contraception. Studies consistently show the better educated the men and women in a society are, the better choices they make in life - i.e. Economic development. Having abortions is not going to give them that, simply because after the abortion, they will go back to whatever situation they were in to begin with. Women need to have access to education, skills development and jobs. If they didn't have it before they fell pregnant then they won't have it after the abortion either.
Regarding your comments on honouring the womb and gods solutions to solving breaches within a marriage
?And the divorced women shall hold themselves for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And for what obligations the women are owed, so similarly must they fulfil their obligations. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them in this. And God is Noble, Wise.? (Quran 222
God does not allow women to conceal what is in her womb. Now if she was aware that she was pregnant, hid it and had an abortion, then does that not violate god's command? God gives the husband a right to now wether his now estranged/divorced wife has conceived. This is in direct opposition to the pro-abortion stance where they argue and believe that the woman has a right to an early abortion because it is her body and her choice and no other person can have a say in it. Why does god not allow the women to conceal what is in the womb?
?You shall let them reside in the home you were in when you were together, and do not coerce them to make them leave. And if they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. Then, if they nurse the infant, you shall pay them their due for such. And you shall maintain the amicable relations between you. If you disagree, then another woman may nurse the child.? (Quran 656)
If the husband and wife have not been able to reconcile, then god makes it clear that the woman must complete the full pregnancy term and that the now divorced husband must provide fully for her care. So, what if the woman, now divorced, does not want to have the child. The pro abortion view is that she has every right to abort and not have the child. Yet, I don't see god agreeing.
Peace.
Al.
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God knows why anybody, always a woman, would need or not need to abort. God knows. Men do not. They may be proud enough to think that they are judges. God in the Qur'an does not state such a thing but keeps the relation between the matrices and Himself for Himself. We are overstepping gravely when we intrude in what God has kept for Himself.
Salaam
Peace huruf
3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
Is it not unjust to refute HIS Admission of a female becoming pregnant.
For a True Believer , Acceptance of HIS Admission is decreed, for we know not what is good for us.
2216 JustWar has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know.
JustWar apart from physical sense is more applicable internally in our day to day life wherein there is a constant war for us to choose between soul and mind, just and unjust, good and bad, right and wrong, fair and unfair,.....
Regards
BalaChandran
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Peace huruf
3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
Is it not unjust to refute HIS Admission of a female becoming pregnant.
For a True Believer , Acceptance of HIS Admission is decreed, for we know not what is good for us.
2216 JustWar has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know.
JustWar apart from physical sense is more applicable internally in our day to day life wherein there is a constant war for us to choose between soul and mind, just and unjust, good and bad, right and wrong, fair and unfair,.....
Regards
BalaChandran
What you answer does not have much to do with the statement of mine that you cite. God knows when a woman becomes pregnant so in what way does that detract from God's reservation to himself of why or when a woman might abort or whether God's finds it justified or not.
In fact the duplicity in this question is manifest. Since to some people it seem rather abhorrent that a woman should be forced to bear a child issued from a rape, then we let it be according to some that that abortion would be a murder as they purport that eveery abortion is. So they are saying that in case of rape murder is justified, so you are saying that s woman who aborts after rape is contravvening God and this and that. Well if you are in that predicamente do as you find it proper and good, but nobody can force a woman based on what one finds proper and good. It is the woman who is the subject of God's direct dealing.
God has not invited anybody else to meddle in women's wombs.
He has ordered on the other hand to reverence the wombs. Reverence them factually and really and then many other problems, drived, like abortion from the fact that society punishes the wombs instead of reverencing them, might solve themselves. You cannot give shit and then pretend to get back gold. That is you can pretend it, but you won't get it, no matter how entitled you may feel to get gold in return for shit.
Salaam
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Having opposition or reservation towards abortion is not about hating or oppressing women. Having read through many pro-abortion arguments and opinion pieces, you seem to have a very 'doomsday' view not shared by the majority. For the most part, in the developed world at least, pro-abortion and pro-choice is about having free & unfettered access to abortion services all the time. Furthermore, at least in the developed world, for the most part those women do no want it because they fear that having a child might result in them having to prostitute themselves to provide for the child. No, they argue for the right to abort a pregnancy, due to the simple inconvenience it causes. Some women find having an abortion harrowing and stressful. Some women are perfectly okay and having an abortion does not impact them or affect them one bit.
Abortions will not help the women in less developed societies or those living in lower socio-economic strata. You want to help women and improve their lives, then they need education and access to contraception. Studies consistently show the better educated the men and women in a society are, the better choices they make in life - i.e. Economic development. Having abortions is not going to give them that, simply because after the abortion, they will go back to whatever situation they were in to begin with. Women need to have access to education, skills development and jobs. If they didn't have it before they fell pregnant then they won't have it after the abortion either.
Regarding your comments on honouring the womb and gods solutions to solving breaches within a marriage
?And the divorced women shall hold themselves for three menstruation periods; and it is not lawful for them to conceal what God has created in their wombs, if they believe in God and the Last Day. And their husbands would then have just cause to return together, if they both wish to reconcile. And for what obligations the women are owed, so similarly must they fulfil their obligations. But the men will have a greater responsibility over them in this. And God is Noble, Wise.? (Quran 222
God does not allow women to conceal what is in her womb. Now if she was aware that she was pregnant, hid it and had an abortion, then does that not violate god's command? God gives the husband a right to now wether his now estranged/divorced wife has conceived. This is in direct opposition to the pro-abortion stance where they argue and believe that the woman has a right to an early abortion because it is her body and her choice and no other person can have a say in it. Why does god not allow the women to conceal what is in the womb?
?You shall let them reside in the home you were in when you were together, and do not coerce them to make them leave. And if they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. Then, if they nurse the infant, you shall pay them their due for such. And you shall maintain the amicable relations between you. If you disagree, then another woman may nurse the child.? (Quran 656)
If the husband and wife have not been able to reconcile, then god makes it clear that the woman must complete the full pregnancy term and that the now divorced husband must provide fully for her care. So, what if the woman, now divorced, does not want to have the child. The pro abortion view is that she has every right to abort and not have the child. Yet, I don't see god agreeing.
Peace.
Al.
This is nto about pro abortion or anti abortion. This is about something else. Nobody is ro abortion, but there are people who seem to think that the world can be dirty, but that in a dirty world, still women must be punished for not being model (their model) of cleanliness in spit of the fact that of nobody is clealiness expected.
As the Sapanish saying goes O jugamos TODOS o se rompe la baraja (either we play all or the deck of cards be shreded. The society may go astray as much as she pleases but concerning women, no way even if filth is universal, they must still be heroes.
You won't get that, no matter hwo much you bring God, and theories into the play, but what you will get is women dying frequently from botched abortions and the abortions will go on veyr much the same. There are not two rules, narrow for women and wide for others. If you want a virtuous society start honouring the wombs as God, very wisely says. But from many muslims all concern seems to go to having women well controlled. And from modern quarters all goes to having women pay for not being controlled, either by making hell for them if they still keep on wanting children or if they rennouce that, makingg them feel ever uilty for not having them.
When societies stop being watchers and controllers of women, they may get the results from it. As long as they are controllers and judges of women they will get the equivalent "rewards". So good luck in expecting gold in exchange for shit.
By the way of all those ayas I am well aware and they do not say what you they say. And you always assume that the woman wants to abort and the nice husband does not. Within a marriage conditiosn must be clearly set. And they must be abided by by both parties. If they break yhe agreement the marriage is over. Where there is no marriage, there is nothing on which to agree. And do not forget that women have the same rights in marriage as those over them. And again you are the husband may divorce but th Qur'an does nto foresee any action concerning abortion. THEREFORE what th woman does is between her and God and whatever liabilities she may have contracted with the husband. The husband is no the owner of the woman. The question dealt with in the Qur'an ar ethe condicitons to be fulfilled by the father if a pregnancy happens and a birth happens. It is talking about the duties of the father not about the duties of the mother, and what is saafeguarding is the identity of the child not the ownership of the father. The woman must not hide or lie about the identity of the child.
I seems that many people are convinced that the right way to go about women is watch them like potential criminals, controll them as uncontrolled nuts and tie them short to "protect them" from tempting and from becoming bad women -or aborters.
Yes one feels like asking oneself why didGod spend to much revelation trying to teach those who are just happy as they are.Salaam
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The punishment for rape is not in the quran, or is it? Actually, it is.
Sex before marriage is not in the quran, or is it? Actually it is.
Abortion? Likewise.
But there must be a proving, a forward aspect. Everyone has the right to feel hurt and to express that they feel hurt. Women have the right to be free from oppression and indeed men have a greater responsibility to women than women have towards men. Men are made to lead, women are made to feel. The feeling of a lady is also her leading, there is yinyang here.
Women are doubly vulnerable, firstly due to the imposing nature/presence of men, and secondly the flow of one's hormones to which we are already so. We accept this.
We are not here to blame women. A friend of mine says something which I feel rings very true
In a patriarchal society, men are raised above women. In a matriarchal society, all are equal.
Then we may consider that we were all once female, the choice to become male is made within the womb. And we may also remember that upon man is the enjoinment of kindness towards his mother.
Mother is twofold, and this has been ignored. We have mother, and grandmother, but both of these persons are rendered in quran as Mother. This is the crux of the issue we spend one life in the womb in two bodies one after another, and one life in the outside world in our own body, one after another after another.
The first part of life is spent as an egg cell (You) in the fetus (Birth Mother) of one's pregnant Grand Mother (pre-preBirth). The second part of the first life is spent as the egg developing within the mother and experiencing the Life of the mother. Then the Second Life is spent as the manifest human.
So we have two lives;
First Life is spent as an egg cell
Second Life (Birth onto the Earth) is when the sperm joins the egg in the mother's womb;
The second Life is spent as either male or female according to the will/choice/nature of the Soul and primarily The God Supreme, the first Life of which has two stages is spent as female/egg, always.You F => F=> M/F
What is seen outside F + M (Grandma) => F + M (Ma)=> M/F (Me)Thus a creation after creation in triple darkness,
Thus "twice you have given us life, twice you have caused us to die"group