Gay and Muslim?

[muslims]

You claim one thing while I meant the opposite.

Did you miss my post to you about pedophilia in humans?

We need to remember that homosexuality occurs in nature too and they do not have the same kind of consciousness as we do and still they are homosexual.

We proved that homosexuality is against God's (anatomical) design but it is not unnatural as the phenomenon simply exists and that not only in humans.

Salam

What is the "natural" use of human butt?

Should we feel disgusted, or it is "natural" and represent the truth? hmm

Yes, or No. Simple question.

Peace

The reason of "natural" in "human behaviours" (vs. human organs) may not be entirely correct in finding the right path.

Just cause it's natural or that it was made by the Creator doesn't mean it's good or nice.

[muslims]

Unfortunately, translators, even excellent ones, God bless them, keep betraying themselves because of the ingrained and unnocited malecentrism which has pervaded all cultures known to me on earth, in spite of themselves. This is the case with the translation that is used in this message of muslims that I quote.

There are no wives in the Arabic text. In fact the aya is part of set of them that refer equally to men and women. Please read de preceeding ones and the follwing ones tot he ayas quoted by muslims

The text is spiaking the third person masculine, but referring to anybody, male or female, and does nto say "wives" but "zawj", that is, one of a pair, be it of identical things or be it of complementary things, like each part of a pair of shoes. So it could be properly translated as partner or consort or spouse, but no mention of wife, or of woman or of male or of man.

As to the mamalakat ayman... as we know they can be males or females and can be adscribed to males or females.

So in fact what is undoubted is that whatever is done or not done with the private parts is always in the intimacy with no more than one apart from onself. To note carefully is that if zawj is translated as wife, that would men that women would be authorized to have sexual partners, spouses of their same sex, or the they would be exempted of having to keep to their partners and could go freely with anybody else too.

Still good that it has been brought up. Thank you.

Salaam

http//corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=73472

Salam

I'm sure the issue you are raising is not relevant to the issue of this thread, and neither it distort the meaning or contextual meaning of the Qur'an.

Muhammad Asad
with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possess - for then, behold, they are free of all blame,

M. M. Pickthall
Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy;

Shakir
Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed,

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 193
Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
but not from their spouses or what their right hands possessed. Truly, they are not ones who will be reproached.

Wahiduddin Khan
except from their spouses and those whom they rightfully possess , for which they incur no blame

T.B.Irving
except with their own spouses or those living under their control; with such they are blameless.

Except with their wives and with those of the captives in their hands; an act being then holy and incurs no blame;

(2011 Edition)
Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.

Abdel Haleem
from all but their spouses or their slave-girls??there is no blame attached to these,

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
Save in regard to their spouses or those whom their right hands own; so verily they are not blameworthy -

Ahmed Ali
And those who guard their sex except from their wives and women slaves of old. Are free of blame

Aisha Bewley
except from their wives and any slaves they own, in which case they incur no blame,

Ali ?nal
Save from their spouses or (as a permission for men) those (bondsmaids) whom their right hands possess, for with regard to them they are free from blame.

Ali Quli Qara'i
(except from their spouses and their slave women, for then they are not blameworthy;

Hamid S. Aziz
Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess - for on these surely is no blame,

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
Except with their spouses or what their right hands possess; then surely they are not blameworthy (Literally other than being blameworthy).

Muhammad Sarwar
except from their wives and slave girls, in which case they are not to be blamed,

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
except from their wives and those (slave-girls) owned by their hands,__ because they are not to be blamed,

Shabbir Ahmed
They have intimate relations only with their spouses - that is, those who are rightfully theirs through wedlock. For such relationship they are free of blame. ('Aw' = Or = That is = And. (235-7)).

Syed Vickar Ahamed
Except from their wives and the (captive) whom their right hand possess? For (them), they are not to be blameworthy,

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they are not to be blamed -

Farook Malik
except from their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for in their case they are not blameworthy.

Dr. Munir Munshey
Except with their spouses _ those whom their right hands possess; because then, they are not blameworthy.

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
Except from their wives or the female slaves they possess. So (in this) there is no blame on them.

Dr. Kamal Omar
except unto their wives or ma-malakat-aimanuhum (the women who are given in guardianship of adult males as their wives under a document prepared by the Muslim state) ? then surely they are unblamed people.

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
Except from their spouses or those living under their control, for then they are free of blame.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
Except with their spouses and those who their right hands possess, for they are not to be blamed,

Maududi
except in regard to their spouses and those whom their right hands possess, for in regard to them they are not reproachable,

(2013 Edition)
Except around their spouses or those maintained by their oaths, there is no blame.

Bijan Moeinian
with their wives and the ones that God has approved for them.

Faridul Haque
Except with their wives and the bondwomen in their possession, for there is no reproach on them.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
except from their wives and what their right hands own, for these they are not blameworthy.

Maulana Muhammad Ali
Except in the presence of their mates or those whom their right hands possess -- for such surely are not to be blamed,

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
Except on (for) their spouses and what their rights owned/possessed (i.e. care-givers of the sick, elderly and disabled under contract), so then they are not blameworthy/blamed.

Sher Ali
Except from their wives and from those whom their right hands possess; such indeed, are not to blame;

Rashad Khalifa
(They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs -

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
Except with their wives and the bondwomen in their possession, for there is no reproach on them.

Amatul Rahman Omar
Except from their (free) wives or those (wives of theirs) whom their right hands own (- slave wives), for which they are not to blame.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali
Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed,

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry
save from their wives and what their right hands own, then not being blameworthy

Edward Henry Palmer
except for their wives or the (slave girls) whom their right hands possess, for they are not to be blamed;

George Sale
of women other than their wives, or the slaves which their right hands possess; -- for as to them they shall be blameless;

John Medows Rodwell
(Save with their wives or the slaves whom their right hands have won, for there they shall be blameless;

N J Dawood (draft)
save with their wives and slave?girls, for these are lawful for them

Peace

[Man_of_Faith]

Take a break muslims. I am disgusted by it and what made you believe otherwise? It is because it is an abnormality and not according to the design and we feel disgusted by the image of it.

Nevertheless I try to have empathy for those who were born this way or has it as a mental illness that they cannot help being homosexual.

I said that homosexuality is against the design and you know it, but the phenomenon undeniably occurs still and in which way it could be considered "natural". Of course the term "natural" can be slightly inaccurate and must be taken to the context, but it refers to a phenomenon which occurs biologically not in an unnatural way. It is difficult to say that an animal with a lesser mind can get a psychological disorder that they copulate with same sex partners, so the logical conclusion is that it is biological.

We can control certain abnormal behavior thanks to our developed brain, but we still suffer from the instincts, take the sex drive for example. Many people have trouble abstaining from certain behavior because of the instincts.

Peace

[GODsubmitter]

?Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.?
Oscar Wilde

[muslims]

Take a break muslims. I am disgusted by it and what made you believe otherwise? It is because it is an abnormality and not according to the design and we feel disgusted by the image of it.

Nevertheless I try to have empathy for those who were born this way or has it as a mental illness that they cannot help being homosexual.

I said that homosexuality is against the design and you know it, but the phenomenon undeniably occurs still and in which way it could be considered "natural". Of course the term "natural" can be slightly inaccurate and must be taken to the context, but it refers to a phenomenon which occurs biologically not in an unnatural way. It is difficult to say that an animal with a lesser mind can get a psychological disorder that they copulate with same sex partners, so the logical conclusion is that it is biological.

We can control certain abnormal behavior thanks to our developed brain, but we still suffer from the instincts, take the sex drive for example. Many people have trouble abstaining from certain behavior because of the instincts.

Peace

Salam

That's my point, and I believe it is "unnatural for the Deen of Islam" to misplace what have God intended it to be.

It is okay to be empathy but it is not the truth in Islam.

The truth is what in the Qur'an.

We cannot distort the rules simply because we feel empathy, right? Is it?

What is the logical connection between "empathy" and "truth"?

Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace

[muslims]

Peace

The rules relating to "empathy or hate" (feelings) vs. "be just"

O you who have believed
be persistently standing firm for Allah
witnesses in justice
and do not let the hatred of a people <- feelings, "empathy or hate"
prevent you from being just
Be just; that is nearer to righteousness
And fear Allah
indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do
(5

Salam

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

?Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.?
Oscar Wilde

Heh, reminds me of an anagram!

Quote by Oscar Wilde
There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about. =
Wilde died broken, beaten 'n' total nut. Hate being sunk in that rotten gaol. Shh, gay is taboo.
(by Larry Brash)

http//www.wordsmith.org/anagram/hof.html

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

Peace

The rules relating to "empathy or hate" (feelings) vs. "be just"

O you who have believed
be persistently standing firm for Allah
witnesses in justice
and do not let the hatred of a people <- feelings, "empathy or hate"
prevent you from being just
Be just; that is nearer to righteousness
And fear Allah
indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do
(5

Salam

I'm not sure that hatred relates in any way to empathy!

Perhaps a better example of empathy would be the following

3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[muslims]

Greetings and Peace, all group

I'm not sure that hatred relates in any way to empathy!

Perhaps a better example of empathy would be the following

3159 It was a mercy from GOD that you were soft towards them; had you been harsh and mean hearted, they would have dispersed from you; so pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the matter; but when you are convinced, then put your trust in GOD; for GOD loves those who put their trust.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Salam

Is there any problem?

Both ayats about "being just", right?

Peace

p.s. RED Actually your ayat is more about the "mercy of Allah", which is out of context. )

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

Most of God's system has a lot of do with being humble, understanding and loving and not so much harshness and coldness except being able to stand up for your rights and defend yourself. I do not agree that emotions are forbidden and a sign of weakness. It is this kind of thinking Shaytaan wants to inflict in man. I am fascinated that people extract this kind of behavior from Qur'an.

If you can understand the situation of those who are homosexual even if you do not sympathize with them you can empathize and make their condition bearable, you have reached far into God's realm. You should be able to be kind or at least respectable even towards those who sin. And who does not sin anyway?

God bless you

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

Salam

Is there any problem?

Both ayats about "being just", right?

Peace

handshake

I agree that both verses are about being just (and kind)...just pointing out that hatred is not even distantly related to empathy.

Empathy is recognizing emotions that another person is feeling--"putting yourself in their shoes."

Empathy is related to the Golden Rule...the Golden Rule is in AQ both in the positive, and the negative (Silver Rule).

Positive form

2422 And let not those among you who have been blessed by abundance refuse to give to the relatives, and the needy, and those who have immigrated in the cause of GOD. Let them pardon and forgive. Would you not like GOD to forgive you? And GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.

Negative form

2267 O you who believe, spend from the good things that you have earned, and from what We have brought forth from the earth. And do not select the rotten out of it to give, while you would not take it yourselves unless you closed your eyes regarding it. And know that God is Rich, Praiseworthy.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[muslims]

Salam

I believe both of you must be very confused.

Read from the start and there is not a single person who is talking or supporting the ideas of Muslim should oppress homosexual.

All are agreed that there should be no oppression, respect them as human beings, and are talking about "What is the rule in the Qur'an?".

Issue of this thread

I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?

(the statements thereafter are the "supporting statements" suggesting the importance of this issue, and why the Sunni and Shia should treat them as a Muslim and human beings - which is not necessary since many here are not Sunni or Shia, and are not supporting any oppression)

ie. the issue of whether gay is a muslim or non-muslim?

if a muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)

if a non-muslim, why? which ayat? (refer here)

and if relating to a statement that can be a muslim because of "feelings" (refer here) or "natural" (refer here).. then the issue whether these factors or elements can change God's rules? (refer here and here)

and what is the rule relating to homosexuality? (refer here, which no one is willing to answer, and rather wish to treat as if it is never existed in the Qur'an)

http//www.themarketingbit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/head-in-sand.jpg

Same question.. from the start.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340673#msg340673

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340574#msg340574

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340409#msg340409

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340242#msg340242

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg339941#msg339941

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340013#msg340013

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg339984#msg339984

Peace group

But as I pointed out, there is no reason for any society not to allow

I believe this will involve different issues, ie. "Whether gay is a public offence or private offence?". Why it is an offence when it is private between two individuals? Why prostitution is an offence?

(**Is it a private offence? It involves two parties and can be considered as a public offence, an offering to the public to join the offeror committing an offence, harming the other party and exposing them to various infections or diseases to the other, their family and relatives (+humiliation) and the society at large; cf. abettors, non-payment of taxes or zakat, and punishment for adultery, ie. it is a public sentence. Private is related to one single entity, you alone and without contacts with two or more persons, eg. leaving prayers.)

[Adil_Husain]

May peace and blessings of God be on you ,

I think that first we have to make it clear that is being a Gay something which is predetermined , which can not be controlled by an individual or is it a choice or nurture or mixture of both.

There are certain genes that increases the predisposition for a particular disease or behavior of a person.
for example certain genes makes a person prone for Lung cancer , however refraining from smoking ( which is due to his nurture, life style and free decisions) will not led to development of Lung cancer in his life.

We know that some individual has an urge to get attracted towards the same sex which he can not control but at the same time we know that many a times Identical twins (monozygotic) having same DNA and genes are not both Homosexual. so i think that it is possible that some Genes may be responsible for predisposing a person towards a Homosexual attitude but at the same time nurture and proper raising of a child can change him.

Quran does not wants us to be a Homosexual but it does not prescribes any punishment for homosexuality from other Human beings , Punishment of Homosexuality ( and other associated crimes ) is from God , not Humans.

Allah Knows Best . these were my views.

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam Adil Husain,

I think it might be a test of tolerance and respect the whole homosexuality thing.

God bless you

[GODsubmitter]

May peace and blessings of God be on you ,

I think that first we have to make it clear that is being a Gay something which is predetermined , which can not be controlled by an individual or is it a choice or nurture or mixture of both.

There are certain genes that increases the predisposition for a particular disease or behavior of a person.
for example certain genes makes a person prone for Lung cancer , however refraining from smoking ( which is due to his nurture, life style and free decisions) will not led to development of Lung cancer in his life.

We know that some individual has an urge to get attracted towards the same sex which he can not control but at the same time we know that many a times Identical twins (monozygotic) having same DNA and genes are not both Homosexual. so i think that it is possible that some Genes may be responsible for predisposing a person towards a Homosexual attitude but at the same time nurture and proper raising of a child can change him.

Quran does not wants us to be a Homosexual but it does not prescribes any punishment for homosexuality from other Human beings , Punishment of Homosexuality ( and other associated crimes ) is from God , not Humans.

Allah Knows Best . these were my views.

EXACTLY!
sun

If you can understand the situation of those who are homosexual even if you do not sympathize with them you can empathize and make their condition bearable, you have reached far into God's realm. You should be able to be kind or at least respectable even towards those who sin. And who does not sin anyway?

Well said.

[muslims]

Salam

Similarly, we need a hadith to amend these rules from the Qur'an, and make it fit with new influences and satisfy sexual needs. yes

And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
(7029-31)

Guide us to the straight path
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor
not of those who have evoked anger
or of those who are astray
(al-Fatihah 6-7)

Indeed, you approach men with desire
instead of women
Rather, you are a transgressing people."
(781)

Relevant ayats (415-16)

a surah
which We have sent down
and made obligatory
and revealed therein verses of clear evidence
that you might remember
The woman
or man
found guilty of <- nature of offence - "sexual intercourse" - guilty
sexual intercourse <- Comparison - (7029-31) above - Can gay commit sexual intercourse?
lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
and do not be taken by pity for them
in the deen of Allah
if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day
And let a group of the believers witness their punishment
(241-2)

(refer here)

Comparison

(2011 Edition)
And the two men who commit it from amongst you, then you shall annoy them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Dr. Kamal Omar
And the two males who come in this (homosexuality) from amongst you, punish those two. Then if they both amended and both reformed (themselves) then you people leave those two (free). Surely Allah is Oft-Returning, continuously Merciful.

And if two of your men commit themselves to the same evil line of conduct (homosexuality) do punish them both. But if they repent and abandon wrong-doing, then disregard their past act and do not reproach them to induce mental pain; Allah has always accepted true repentance and the atonement made by the people; He has always been Tawabun (Relenting) and Rahimun.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 193
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Wahiduddin Khan
If two men commit a like abomination, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. God is forgiving and merciful.

Abdel Haleem
If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone- God is always ready to accept repentance, He is full of mercy.

Ahmed Ali
If two (men) among you are guilty of such acts then punish both of them. But if they repent and reform, let them be, for God accepts repentance and is merciful.

Aisha Bewley
If two men commit a like abomination, punish them. If they make tawba and reform, leave them alone. Allah is Ever-Returning, Most Merciful.

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
If two men among you commit it, punish them both. But if they repent and reform, leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Full of Mercy.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and change, leave them alone, for God is Oft-Returning, the Merciful Redeemer.

Amatul Rahman Omar
And if two of your males commit the same (act of indecency), then punish them both, so if they repent and amend (keeping their conduct good) then turn aside from them, verily Allah is Oft-Returning (with compassion), Ever Merciful.

Muhammad Asad
And punish both of the guilty parties; but if they both repent and mend their ways, leave them alone for, behold, God is an acceptor of repentance, a dispenser of grace.

M. M. Pickthall
And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.

Shakir
And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
And those two who among you approach that, then penalize them both. Then, if they repented and made things right, then, turn aside from them. Truly, God had been Accepter of Repentance, Compassionate.

T.B.Irving
If two of you should indulge in it, trounce them both. If they repent and reform, then ostracize them both. God is Relenting, Merciful.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
And as for those twain of you who commit it, hurt them both; then, if they repent and amend, turn away from them; verily Allah is Relenting, Merciful.

Ali ?nal
When two from among you have committed it, then punish them both by scolding and beating; but if they are remorseful and repent, and make amends, then withdraw from them. Assuredly, God is He Who accepts repentance and returns it with liberal forgiveness, All-Compassionate.

Ali Quli Qara'i
Should two among you commit it, chastise them both; but if they repent and reform, let them alone. Indeed Allah is all-clement, all-merciful.

Hamid S. Aziz
And if two of you commit it, then punish them both; but if they repent and amend, leave them alone, verily, Allah is easily Relenting, Merciful.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
And (as for) the two of you who come up with (an obscenity), then hurt them both. Yet, in case they (both) repent and act righteously, then veer away from them (both); surely Allah has been Superbly Relenting, Ever-Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar
If any two people commit fornication, punish them. If they repent and reform, let them go. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
Those two of you who commit it, chastise both of them. However, if they repent and make amends, then, overlook them. Surely, Allah is Most- Relenting, Very-Merciful.

Shabbir Ahmed
If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.

Syed Vickar Ahamed
And the two persons among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both; And if they repent and improve, leave them alone; Surely, Allah Forgives and Accepts repentance (Tawwab), Most Merciful (Raheem).

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

Farook Malik
And the two, whether married or unmarried, who are guilty of this offense, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. Surely Allah is the Acceptor of Repentance, Merciful.

Dr. Munir Munshey
Punish those of you _ both, man and woman _ who commit (such a deed). If they (relent and) repent and mend their ways, then leave them alone. Of course, Allah accepts repentance! He is the most Merciful!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
And the two persons who commit adultery from amongst you, punish them both. Then, if they repent and mend (their) ways, refrain from punishing them. Indeed, Allah is Most Forgiving, Ever-Merciful.

Maududi
Punish both of those among you who are guilty of this sin, then if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone. For Allah is always ready to accept repentance. He is All-Compassionate.

(2013 Edition)
And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.

Bijan Moeinian
As far as two among you found guilty of indecency, punish them. If they repent, leave them alone as God is the Most Merciful and He accepts people?s repentance.

Faridul Haque
And punish them both, the man and the woman, whoever are guilty of it (adultery); then if they repent and become pious, leave them; indeed Allah is the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, Most Merciful.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah
If two among you commit it punish them both. If they repent and make amends, leave them alone. Allah is the Relenter, the Merciful.

Maulana Muhammad Ali
And as for the two of you who are guilty of it, give them both a slight punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them. Surely Allah is ever Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira
And those who (B/M), they both come/do/commit it from you, so harm them (B), so if they (B) repented, and they (B) corrected, so turn away from them, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.

Sher Ali
And if two from among you are guilty of it, punish them both. And if they repent and amend, then leave them alone; surely ALLAH is Oft-Returning with compassion and is ever Merciful.

Rashad Khalifa
The couple who commits adultery shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)
And punish them both, the man and the woman, whoever are guilty of it (adultery); then if they repent and become pious, leave them; indeed Allah is the Most Acceptor Of Repentance, Most Merciful.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali
And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful.

N J Dawood
420 If two men among you commit a lewd act, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. God is forgiving and merciful.

Sayyid Qutb
And the two from among you who are guilty of the same, punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, then leave them alone. God is the One who accepts repentance, the Merciful.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli
And when two of you commit it (lewdness) punish them both, but if they repent and amend, then turn aside from them. Verily Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy) , the Merciful.

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry
And when two of you commit indecency, punish them both; but if they repent and make amends, then suffer them to be; God turns, and is All-compassionate.

Edward Henry Palmer
And if two of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.

George Sale
And if two of you commit the like wickedness, punish them both But if they repent and amend, let them both alone; for God is easy to be reconciled and merciful.

John Medows Rodwell
And if two men among you commit the same crime, then punish them both; but if they turn and amend, then let them be for God is He who turneth, Merciful!

Peace all peace

[muslims]

continue..

It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.

If they repent and amend, then leave them alone.

otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".

found guilty of <- nature of offence - "sexual intercourse" - guilty
sexual intercourse <- Comparison - (7029-31) above - Can gay commit sexual intercourse?

Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".

(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)

This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.

Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)

and made obligatory

lash each one of them with a hundred lashes
and DO NOT be taken by pity for them
in the deen of Allah
if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day

AND logically....

How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm

"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?

I don't understand your logic... nope

Allah Knows Best . These were my views.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

continue..

It is clear that Allah is lenient with homosexual, PROVIDED, they reform and restrain themselves.

otherwise, I believe they must be punished with the same punishment in (241-2), ie. based on the "NATURE OF OFFENCE" - "Sexual Intercourse".

Guilty for "what you did", not for "who you are".

(e.g. punishments for unintentional murder or accidental death)

This is similar in any criminal prosecution or any principle of jurisprudence (including Islamic Jurisprudence), ie. prosecution based on the "nature of offence", not based on the "offenders". Under normal circumstances, the offenders are irrelevant to any criminal prosecution, even if you are so and so influential person or celebrities.

Therefore, regardless of straight or homosexual and as long it is the offence of "sexual intercourse", sura (415-16) says punish them, and sura (241-2) says what is their punishment; "... a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail..." (111)

AND logically....

How come sexual intercourse between man and woman is grievous, and sexual intercourse between man and man is okay, natural or blessed? hmm

"what you did" = same offence, ie. sexual intercourse
"who you are" = men and women = guilty, men and men = not guilty?

I don't understand your logic... nope

Allah Knows Best . These were my views.

When the entire verses are read in context, more becomes clear.

415 talks about having at least four witnesses; a witness is someone who observes with their own senses. What is private has no decreed temporal punishment.

242 is talking about the punishment for adultery--extramarital sex for one who is married. 246 makes it clear that the people are married, otherwise how can one spouse accuse the other? hmm

Let's take a closer look at 415 and 416.

415 And those of your women who commit lewdness , you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.

2419 As for those who enjoy that lewdness spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in the world and the Hereafter. And GOD knows while you do not know.

In all seriousness, if the lewdness referred to in 415 is homosexuality or even homosexual acts, is this something that spreads? It sounds like lewdness is an STD!

416 And the two men who commit it from among you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend , then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful.

472 And those who believe and do good works, and believe in what was sent down to Mohammed, for it is the truth from their Lord, He cancels for them their sins, and relieves their concern.

Perhaps the word that makes the most sense is improve. Note that this word limits the possible meanings of 416.

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[muslims]

If they repent and amend , then leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Merciful. .

Perhaps the word that makes the most sense is improve.

Salam

Okay, I don't understand why you are quoting my post and explaining the issue of translation relating to "amend " when the post is explaining about the "punishment for sexual intercourse and homosexual in the Qur'an".

How does it relate? Completely two different and separate topics.

Peace peace